Please help me with wiring problem

[Athlon]

I'm trying to install an Insteon Dimmer Switch to control some overhead can lights in the kitchen. I removed the switch and tried wiring it, but it did not work.

 

In the same box you can see one side of a 3-way switch controlling a light in the next room (dinning room). I did not touch any of the wires going to that 3-way dimmer.

 

In the picture you can see the 3 black wires I removed from the old switch. The one to the left is 'hot', the middle one goes to the lights I want the new switch to control and the one on the right goes to the light in the dinning room.

 

I'll call them A, B and C.

 

B and C were on the same side of the switch I removed, and of course A was on the other side of the switch I removed.

 

I believe A is hot because I tested it with a meter and it showed voltage.  Also, when I touched B to A, the kitchen lights came on, and when I touched C to A the dining room light came on.

 

How should I wire the new Insteon dimmer?

 

[cam]

http://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/get-started-2477d

[oberkc]

It might help to identify the switch you are removing.  Is there another switch that controls the overhead can lights?  The fact that there were three wires attached to the original switch makes me suspect this is the case.

 

You may need also to describe the wiring coming into the box.  How are they bundled from cables and what color are each of the individual wires within those cables?

 

It also strikes me as unusual that there one of the wires removed from the original switch causes the dining room lights to come on.  Did you not say that the switch still attached controls the dining room lights?

 

Have you identified the breaker that would disable power to the original switch.  Does it also disable power to the dining room switch?

[Athlon]

@cam - I've installed many of these - it's just this one that has me perplexed

 

 

@oberkc - Yes - both lights are on the same breaker. 

 

The switch I removed did not control the dining room light - only the one still attached did. I find it very odd how it was wired too.

 

The switch I removed was the only one that controls these kitchen lights. (Just a simple on/off 2-way).

 

I'll describe the wires coming out of the 2 cables as soon as I'm able to.

 

Thank you for your replies!

[oberkc]

It is most likely useful to understand all the cables in this box...not just the ones related to the kitchen lights.  It is possible that they share a supply or a neutral somewhere.

 

I also find it unusual that there were three BLACK wires connected to the original switch.  Pay special attention to the possibility that these wires were originally another color, but have been painted black.

[Goose66]

Some things don't add up here. You say you didn't touch the wires to the multi-switch circuit for the dining room, yet one of the exposed black wires is the dining room light? Does the multi-switch circuit for the dining room still work with those three wires disconnected?

 

Also, it is odd that the wire you say is hot is in a three-conductor romex run with a traveler wire (red) for the multi-switch circuit. That doesn't make any sense. 

 

You said the that wires B and C were on the same side of the switch removed and opposite from A. Were B and C attached to the same terminal on the switch? If the can lights were not themselves in a multi-way switch, then the switched removed should have had just two terminals.

 

Further, please vacuum out that J-box out. The whole point of a junction box is to prevent combustible material from coming in contact with the switch. You certainly should not have combustible material IN THE J-BOX!

[Athlon]

I also find it unusual that there were three BLACK wires connected to the original switch.  Pay special attention to the possibility that these wires were originally another color, but have been painted black.

 

I agree.  All 3 Black wires are black - no tape or paint on them.

 

(1) Some things don't add up here. You say you didn't touch the wires to the multi-switch circuit for the dining room, yet one of the exposed black wires is the dining room light? Does the multi-switch circuit for the dining room still work with those three wires disconnected?

 

Also, it is odd that the wire you say is hot is in a three-conductor romex run with a traveler wire (red) for the multi-switch circuit. That doesn't make any sense. 

 

(2) You said the that wires B and C were on the same side of the switch removed and opposite from A. Were B and C attached to the same terminal on the switch? If the can lights were not themselves in a multi-way switch, then the switched removed should have had just two terminals.

 

(3) Further, please vacuum out that J-box out. The whole point of a junction box is to prevent combustible material from coming in contact with the switch. You certainly should not have combustible material IN THE J-BOX!

 

(1) No (see the rest of this post)

 

(2) Sorry - got that wrong (see the rest of this post)

 

(3) First thing I did after reading your post. Thank you for the advice!!

 

 

To try and start over, this morning I hooked everything up the way I thought is was originally and nothing worked. Then I put A and C on the same side of the original switch and B on the other side and both lights work as they have for the last 10+ years.

 

Here is the original wiring scheme:

 

Three cables in box - 1, 2 and 3

 

1 - Black is A, W goes to W from cable 2, R goes to black on dining room dimmer

 

2 - Black is B, W goes to W from cable 1

 

3 - Black is C, W goes to red on dining room dimmer, R goes to 2nd red on dining room dimmer

 

Now that I have everything back to it's original state and working, what are my next steps?

[larryllix]

Need a picture of the switch you removed. My guess is it's a 3-way switch and there is another reciprocal 3-way switch hiding somewhere in the house.

 

Were B and C wires connected together on one terminal, or connected to separate terminals?

[Athlon]

Thanks for all of your help!

 

After studying my last post, I figured there were very few options so I tried putting A and C on the Insteon line wire, B on the Insteon load wire and the white Insteon wire on the 2 white wires from cable 1 and 2.  Bingo!  It works.

 

I believe my original mistake was putting B and C together instead of A and C.

 

@larryllix: Believe me, there is not another 3 way somewhere (been living here since we built in it 1989). The original switch (2-way) had A and C on one side and B on the other.

[larryllix]

Thanks for all of your help!

 

After studying my last post, I figured there were very few options so I tried putting A and C on the Insteon line wire, B on the Insteon load wire and the white Insteon wire on the 2 white wires from cable 1 and 2.  Bingo!  It works.

 

I believe my original mistake was putting B and C together instead of A and C.

 

@larryllix: Believe me, there is not another 3 way somewhere (been living here since we built in it 1989). The original switch (2-way) had A and C on one side and B on the other.

You still didn't say whether A and  C were connected together on one terminal or on two separate terminals. 3-way switches are described exactly the same way.

 

This wouldn't be the first time, after a thread with 70+ posts, that the OP found another light-switch behind a pile of sheets of plywood. LOL

 

Glad you got it figured out.

[Goose66]

So in that configuration, the dining room works even if the kitchen cans are turned off? If so, then cable 2 has to run to the kitchen cans. That means that either cable 1 or cable 3 is the line from the breaker - my guess would be 1.

 

But why would the line from the breaker be a three-conductor? It would be interesting to pull the other switch in the multi-switch circuit for the dining room light and see if there are three cables there: 1 with just a black and white coming from the breaker and the the other ends of cable 1 and 3 from your post above. Of course, if it's working, why mess with it.

[Athlon]

You still didn't say whether A and  C were connected together on one terminal or on two separate terminals. 3-way switches are described exactly the same way.

 

This wouldn't be the first time, after a thread with 70+ posts, that the OP found another light-switch behind a pile of sheets of plywood. LOL

 

Glad you got it figured out.

 

A and C were on the same terminal (there are only two on the old switch).

So in that configuration, the dining room works even if the kitchen cans are turned off? If so, then cable 2 has to run to the kitchen cans. That means that either cable 1 or cable 3 is the line from the breaker - my guess would be 1.

 

But why would the line from the breaker be a three-conductor? It would be interesting to pull the other switch in the multi-switch circuit for the dining room light and see if there are three cables there: 1 with just a black and white coming from the breaker and the the other ends of cable 1 and 3 from your post above. Of course, if it's working, why mess with it.

 

Ha!  Not gonna mess with it any more!!  

 

Now on to another one in the kitchen...

[Goose66]

A and C were on the same terminal (there are only two on the old switch).

 

Probably the electrician being lazy and not wanting to make a pigtail. Were the kitchen cans possibly added at a later date?

[Athlon]

Probably the electrician being lazy and not wanting to make a pigtail. Were the kitchen cans possibly added at a later date?

 

No - they're original.