Uber ~ Automated Driving Death

[asbril]

13 minutes ago, Teken said:

Well, to be fair my question was to prove a point and illicit a honest reply from the forum members. If a person in good confidence and sound mind can't reason that its not a good idea to leave a child in a vehicle that has either been well proven vs not proven.

This immediately tells me there's something wrong.

Both Boeing and Airbus have proven over tens of thousands of miles and years of trials that their planes can fly unattended from point A to B. This is undisputed as it happens every second of every day as I write this. What took longer was to prove the same technology could reliably control a large vehicle from take off to landing in all weather conditions. Again, this has been proven by both companies because this is part of the larger fail over plan in case of a pilot failure.

Some of the conditions they wanted to address was as common as heart attack, stroke, sudden depressurization, and terrorist threats.

Yet not a soul has taken the plunge to get on board and fly A to B, why???

This same analogy directly relates to placing a child to animal in said automated vehicle. Nobody serious on this forum has spoken up to affirm the same besides offer counterpoints with caveats, if, but, etc.

That isn't a reply that instills confidence to me or those who have concerns the current deployment of this concept is totally flawed. 

     

Possibly I do not understand your reasoning, but I fail to grasp your opposition to the development of self driving cars. 

I have seen nobody arguing that self driving cars are ready for general deployment. They are not !

However in order to get there we need to step by step testing the technology and learning from mistakes and incidents. That is being done and one day in the not too far future they will be safe enough for general use . Will there be accidents ? Yes but likely fewer than with non-self driving cars. There still are plane accidents for technical and human issues but I dont see you arguing against airplanes.

Self driving cars promise a wonderful solution to traffic and safety. Give it time to go through the development .

[smokegrub]

Gentlemen, I implore you to let this go. It has the potential to seriously strain relationships and for what purpose. Technology will inexorably move forward. In time, we will know by facts and data whether driverless vehicles are in our future. Until then, I will continue to need assistance from you experts to try to optimally use my home automation equipment. Talk about risk, my eldest grandson now has a learner's permit and I will soon be seated in the same vehicle as he refines his skills!

[asbril]

Just now, smokegrub said:

Gentlemen, I implore you to let this go. It has the potential to seriously strain relationships and for what purpose. Technology will inexorably move forward. In time, we will know by facts and data whether driverless vehicles are in our future. Until then, I will continue to need assistance from you experts to try to optimally use my home automation equipment. Talk about risk, my eldest grandson now has a learner's permit and I will soon be seated in the same vehicle as he refines his skills!

I hope it wont strain relationships because I very much appreciate Teken. He seems like a great person, even if we disagree.

[Teken]

5 minutes ago, smokegrub said:

Gentlemen, I implore you to let this go. It has the potential to seriously strain relationships and for what purpose. Technology will inexorably move forward. In time, we will know by facts and data whether driverless vehicles are in our future. Until then, I will continue to need assistance from you experts to try to optimally use my home automation equipment. Talk about risk, my eldest grandson now has a learner's permit and I will soon be seated in the same vehicle as he refines his skills!

LOL . . . 

Make sure you tell your grandson that Teken still needs his Grandpa! And its Teken, NOT Tekken one is the video game and the other is to *Bestow powerful knowledge upon others*. 

3 minutes ago, asbril said:

I hope it wont strain relationships because I very much appreciate Teken. He seems like a great person, even if we disagree.

I can affirm this will not strain our relationship. I simply enjoy debating the merits of a topic, subject, to learn the views of others. Its not my intention to change peoples minds but simply to make them take pause and evaluate their position.

The greatest mistake any person can ever do is simply say YES. If we are simply to be cattle and sheep then the world has no place for Humans. This world has enough sheep that have no thought of their own and follow blindly to what ever people say. 

I am not a sheep ~ Could be a wolf! 

[Mustang65]

Well Teken, my YES or NO answer is "YES". Now you have categorized me as insane or at the upper end of crazy. Not really! I am 69, done everything I have wanted to, gone where I wanted to, even though I think flying is a pain in the A... I had a couple hundred thousand air miles under my belt (now you know why I hate flying now). I survived a tour of duty in a chopper, in Vietnam, had the "Last Rights given to me 3x during my life. The only thing left on my bucket list is installing 10kW of SOLAR on my northern south facing fence, as soon as I can get in agreement with the engineer and city. I HATE PAYING DUKE ENERGY EVERY MONTH!!!!!!!!!!

So, I take out a 1/2 million dollar flight insurance policy (this way you know that nothing will happen anyway), get in, have a couple of my normal Brandy Manhattan's on the rocks, watch the big screen TV displaying everything going on in front of the plane, put my ear bud's in, a little Pandora or maybe discuss life with the other 150 so called crazy people on the same flight. 

I am totally happy with my life, past, present and who knows if there will be a future. If it ends today, tomorrow or when ever... I am ready. In December and in January when I was in the hospital the nurses all asked if I really wanted the DNR wrist band put on. I said, ABSOLUTLY! Why, I have see to many friends come back after that and been in such bad shape, but no legal way to just end life. I also have a clause that if I have to be mechanically kept alive without the ability to feed myself, PULL THE PLUG!

LIFE WILL GO ON

[Teken]

5 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Well Teken, my YES or NO answer is "YES". Now you have categorized me as insane or at the upper end of crazy. Not really! I am 69, done everything I have wanted to, gone where I wanted to, even though I think flying is a pain in the A... I had a couple hundred thousand air miles under my belt (now you know why I hate flying now). I survived a tour of duty in a chopper, in Vietnam, had the "Last Rights given to me 3x during my life. The only thing left on my bucket list is installing 10kW of SOLAR on my northern south facing fence, as soon as I can get in agreement with the engineer and city. I HATE PAYING DUKE ENERGY EVERY MONTH!!!!!!!!!!

So, I take out a 1/2 million dollar flight insurance policy (this way you know that nothing will happen anyway), get in, have a couple of my normal Brandy Manhattan's on the rocks, watch the big screen TV displaying everything going on in front of the plane, put my ear bud's in, a little Pandora or maybe discuss life with the other 150 so called crazy people on the same flight. 

I am totally happy with my life, past, present and who knows if there will be a future. If it ends today, tomorrow or when ever... I am ready. In December and in January when I was in the hospital the nurses all asked if I really wanted the DNR wrist band put on. I said, ABSOLUTLY! Why, I have see to many friends come back after that and been in such bad shape, but no legal way to just end life. I also have a clause that if I have to be mechanically kept alive without the ability to feed myself, PULL THE PLUG!

LIFE WILL GO ON

Well Don, regardless of the Yes vs No question I do hope you stay around. 

[Mustang65]

So we are discussing a little driverless car a pilot less plane but where do these people fit into the picture?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/02/16/100-finalists-have-been-chosen-for-a-one-way-trip-to-mars/?utm_term=.61841c43f9df

 

[larryllix]

57 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

So we are discussing a little driverless car a pilot less plane but where do these people fit into the picture?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/02/16/100-finalists-have-been-chosen-for-a-one-way-trip-to-mars/?utm_term=.61841c43f9df

 

That's an interesting topic! I think the pilot could be electronically woken up in time to correct the steering there.

 

I wonder if all women candidates selected will have to be sterile? Could be a big conflab later!

You think Teken can stir the pot?

[Mustang65]

I hope so!!!!!!

[DrLumen]

I find it unbelievable that google or waymo or uber or (self driving car tech maker or car maker name here) would just fold up if they get sued. Anyone can sue for anything but it doesn't mean they will win. ie. elevator companies are still in business.

I see where Fiat has settled with Anton Yelchin's family over his death related to his Jeep. I didn't see any new releases about Fiat folding up.

NHTSA crash stats (the plan):
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812451

Everyone losing their minds:
http://www.google.com/search?ei=--e2Wq-6C8yatgXN6IuoAQ&q=self+driving+car+deaths&oq=self+driving+car+deaths

The point being, the more commonplace self-driving cars become, the more the accidents and deaths related to them will be accepted by the public.

[apostolakisl]

6 hours ago, asbril said:

Possibly I do not understand your reasoning, but I fail to grasp your opposition to the development of self driving cars. 

I have seen nobody arguing that self driving cars are ready for general deployment. They are not !

However in order to get there we need to step by step testing the technology and learning from mistakes and incidents. That is being done and one day in the not too far future they will be safe enough for general use . Will there be accidents ? Yes but likely fewer than with non-self driving cars. There still are plane accidents for technical and human issues but I dont see you arguing against airplanes.

Self driving cars promise a wonderful solution to traffic and safety. Give it time to go through the development .

Yup.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, DrLumen said:

I find it unbelievable that google or waymo or uber or (self driving car tech maker or car maker name here) would just fold up if they get sued. Anyone can sue for anything but it doesn't mean they will win. ie. elevator companies are still in business.

I see where Fiat has settled with Anton Yelchin's family over his death related to his Jeep. I didn't see any new releases about Fiat folding up.

NHTSA crash stats (the plan):
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812451

Everyone losing their minds:
http://www.google.com/search?ei=--e2Wq-6C8yatgXN6IuoAQ&q=self+driving+car+deaths&oq=self+driving+car+deaths

The point being, the more commonplace self-driving cars become, the more the accidents and deaths related to them will be accepted by the public.

That is not completely true. Human caused driving deaths have increased and resulted in increased safety devices and legislation that constantly changes. This is one of the reasons we are integrating AI into vehicles, to save lives and human suffering.

[DrLumen]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

That is not completely true. Human caused driving deaths have increased and resulted in increased safety devices and legislation that constantly changes. This is one of the reasons we are integrating AI into vehicles, to save lives and human suffering.

I'm not sure what half-truth you are inferring that I made. Yes, with the car came auto deaths and eventually people trying to make cars safer. That is one of the NHTSA's main goals. Volvo was started on that main premise. Ironically, some groups try to make them safer as they make them more dangerous.

However, there were still 34K+ traffic deaths in 2016. A self-driving Volvo has now killed someone. None of that is stopping the licensing of drivers, production of cars or creation of roads. Yes, self-driving cars should be safer (we won't know for certain until enough data is collected).

I will still drive in town but kicking back and letting the car do the driving on long interstate road trips would be nice too. Personally, I think self-driving cars will make the roads safer overall. But, for most of the developed world, I see self-driving cars as only an intermediate step. In metropolitan and interstate highways I foresee them to be master controlled and managed. A car will be part of a system. To go back to planes, like an ATC (auto traffic control?). Each car given instructions for paths and speeds. We may not even own cars. We may just have one available (probably not the same one) to us for rent.

[Mustang65]

Look back to the late 50's when our eyes were looking toward space exploration. We started sending living things into space. Did they start with a HUMAN, of course not, they sent up plants, dogs and monkeys. 

Maybe the best solution is to train moneys to drive this new car technology. Build a test city with stop lights, cross walks, monkeys riding bikes, crossing streets carrying bananas from the monkey grocery store, and riding bikes in bike zones. You can train a monkey to do anything, unlike humans.

The only difference between monkeys and a lot of the drivers today is that the monkey has more brain power, when doing repetitive things.

Keep adding monkeys and cars to the simulated city streets/country roads to create an environment that is challenging to the new breed of cars, so that they can learn faster!!!

Take the humans out of the equation. Now technology really has to learn and think... then plug the humans back into the equation.. guaranteed it will be more advanced!

Hey.... the video from the simulated city could even become a hit on "America's Funniest Videos"! .... and fund the project. The only problem that I see is the State of California would require that each driving monkey requires a "Valid Drivers License"

Just my thoughts

[asbril]

Some of you may find the attached article, from today's Wall Street Journal, interesting. It covers the deployment of 5G cellular technology and its potential use for cars.

5G Wireless Will Redraw the Wireless Industry Map_ Who Stands to Lose_ - WSJ.pdf

[lilyoyo1]

23 hours ago, smokegrub said:

Gentlemen, I implore you to let this go. It has the potential to seriously strain relationships and for what purpose. Technology will inexorably move forward. In time, we will know by facts and data whether driverless vehicles are in our future. Until then, I will continue to need assistance from you experts to try to optimally use my home automation equipment. Talk about risk, my eldest grandson now has a learner's permit and I will soon be seated in the same vehicle as he refines his skills!

As often as Teken and I disagree, we have one hell of a strained relationship....I'm sorry @Teken for disagreeing. Please forgive me, It'll probably happen many many more times. Lol.

In all seriousness, some people debate for the love of it. They do it, not necessarily to change a person's way of thinking but to open their minds to a different possibility. They don't care if you agree with them or not. These same people also use debate as a way to learn more themselves; whether their thoughts change our not. I think most on here fall into this category. I know myself and Teken does.

The ones that try to brow beat people into their way of thinking generally don't last long on here. This type is generally closed minded and simply wants people to agree with them. There are too many intelligent and alpha male toes on here that they quickly find their mindset simply doesn't work here. 

[asbril]

Two more interesting articles on the topic.

Most Stressful Job on the Road_ Not Driving an Autonomous Car - WSJ.pdf

https://nyti.ms/2GlzyOM

[Teken]

20 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

As often as Teken and I disagree, we have one hell of a strained relationship....I'm sorry @Teken for disagreeing. Please forgive me, It'll probably happen many many more times. Lol.

In all seriousness, some people debate for the love of it. They do it, not necessarily to change a person's way of thinking but to open their minds to a different possibility. They don't care if you agree with them or not. These same people also use debate as a way to learn more themselves; whether their thoughts change our not. I think most on here fall into this category. I know myself and Teken does.

The ones that try to brow beat people into their way of thinking generally don't last long on here. This type is generally closed minded and simply wants people to agree with them. There are too many intelligent and alpha male toes on here that they quickly find their mindset simply doesn't work here. 

Stop making me agree with you its interrupting my inner Chi! 

[Teken]

Quote

Missy Cummings, a professor at Duke University, has conducted research that shows that people have difficulty sustaining vigilance for long periods when expected to monitor automation. Her group studied 27 subjects during four hours of simulated driving, and their vigilance decreased on average after about 21 minutes.

Quote

Beyond the routine hazards of driving, test operators said they were sometimes challenged by pedestrians, bicyclists and other cars who recognized their vehicles as autonomous—such as by jumping out in front of slow-moving vehicles or riding closely alongside

From one of the links provided by asbril . . .

The first study doesn't surprise me in the least as this is human nature. The next regarding people playing chicken with the vehicles is again human nature. Just these two examples illustrates education, laws, and guidelines are not enough.

You simply can't ingrain common sense . . .

[Mustang65]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

....... You simply can't ingrain common sense . . .

But in a few years down the road, they will be able to program it... maybe accessing a "Common Sense" dB

[Teken]

But in a few years down the road, they will be able to program it... maybe accessing a "Common Sense" dB

One can only dream and wish this to be true! ?


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[Mustang65]

Next Generation LiDAR

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/solid-state-LiDAR-is-coming-to-an-autonomous-vehicle-near-you/

 

 

[mitchmitchell]

But in a few years down the road, they will be able to program it... maybe accessing a "Common Sense" dB

Actually, we could evolve it by programming the autonomous vehicles to ignore people who jump in front or ride to close. You just have to 'select against' undesirable traits in a population...

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[Teken]

35 minutes ago, mitchmitchell said:

Actually, we could evolve it by programming the autonomous vehicles to ignore people who jump in front or ride to close. You just have to 'select against' undesirable traits in a population...

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[Mustang65]

3 hours ago, mitchmitchell said:

Actually, we could evolve it by programming the autonomous vehicles to ignore people who jump in front or ride to close. You just have to 'select against' undesirable traits in a population...

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How about installing air bags on the front bumper, angled slightly upward, so the victim (human, dog, cat, drug-dealer...) will be sent upward to land on an inflated air bag on the roof of the car.... wait when we get to the time when we get an RF chip installed at birth, and the car does a background check, on the soon to be victim ms before impact, it can then decide to activate the front air bag or if it was the drug-dealer, don't inflate the air bags and increase speed, and alter the cars camera output by inserting a 30 second commercial in place of the impact footage. This will also help with the world's overpopulation issues.