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Z Wave/Insteon integration with 994i


raydoc

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My electrician installed LED lighting in new construction and used Insteon switches. The LEDs all flash on startup and Insteon's response is that they don't officially support LED fixtures (get with the times, folks). I have an 994i with Z wave module. Can I replace the Insteon switches with Z wave ones (Homeseer) and still be able to program buttons on my 6-button Insteon switches to remotely control the Z-wave switches like I do the Insteon ones?

Also have a Yale Z-wave lock I'll eventually have to set up....

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36 minutes ago, raydoc said:

My electrician installed LED lighting in new construction and used Insteon switches. The LEDs all flash on startup and Insteon's response is that they don't officially support LED fixtures (get with the times, folks). I have an 994i with Z wave module. Can I replace the Insteon switches with Z wave ones (Homeseer) and still be able to program buttons on my 6-button Insteon switches to remotely control the Z-wave switches like I do the Insteon ones?

Also have a Yale Z-wave lock I'll eventually have to set up....

It's possible with the zwave daughter board. With that said, I would buy 1 switch to test with your bulbs as you could run into the same incompatibility issues.

Unfortunately this is an industry problem since led bulbs are not created equal

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I have z wave dimmers with insteon KP, I believe you need to be on the beta for this to work together. I'm having a couple issues but we are getting them work led out. Chris has been great! I just finished a house where we out Insteon and switched all their bulbs to LEDS, the Cree proved to be the most reliable. But again I would try bulbs before assuming they work.

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I use both -- I've tried to keep the "cross-technology" scenes to an absolute minimum, though.  So the second floor is all z-wave, the first is mostly Insteon.  I struggled with the LEDs a bit, but finally gritted my teeth, tossed all the perfectly-fine LEDs I had, and replaced pretty much all of them with Philips Warm-Glo LED bulbs.  They play very nicely with Insteon, and have let me keep Insteon in the kitchen (the only place that still demands the KPLs and thus can't switch to z-wave).

With one exception (haven't gotten to it yet), all the motion sensors are now z-wave (I use programs to control Insteon lightling from those -- works really, really well).  The door sensors, temp sensors, occupancy sensors are all z-wave -- working great.

So, bottom line:  Begin your transition to z-wave.  In the interim, try Philips Warm-Glo bulbs and see if they work.  In the long run - toss Insteon and replace it -- there's no future for that technology and probably no future for that company.  A shame, but that's progress I guess.

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So the fixtures are ceiling inset modules, not free bulbs. Insteon works for everything else, including other LED fixtures. So mixed technology scenes are problematic.... hum.

As for tossing Insteon, they really need to get their stuff together if they want to survive. 

The Homeseer HS-WD100+ dimmers list LED compatibility so I may give them a try.

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Just because it list led compatibility doesn't mean it will work with every led bulb. I've seen lutron dimmers that are designed specifically for led still have issues. 

Insteon plays well with zwave using to 5.0 branch. I use insteon switches, zwave sensors, zwave doorlocks, and zwave outlets (1 per room. The rest are insteon outlets). I have zwave and insteon devices as part of the same scenes without any issues. With that said, insteon on insteon communications is much faster than mixed protocol communication. 

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The LED lighting is rated to be OK on a dimmer?

I too have seen the electronics  dimmers and dimmable LED bulbs. No play nice in all combinations.  Everyone has their own designs and some just can't get along.

Some LED bulb manufacturers. Have tested with dimmer model lists to help users. Some dimmer switch manufacturers also have lists.

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I've never used Z-wave so this will be a new adventure. I'm sure I can figure out what you mean by 5.0 branch. 

I was controlling these two dimmers from a couple of 8 button switches in the scene as well as two mini-remotes.

 

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It doesn't matter what brand switch you have. As a educated consumer you must test all LED bulbs first hand to see if they work. There are literally millions of stories of major brands offering quality products today then later down the road produce utter crap!!

Cree is one perfect example of this . . .

One must always test, document, validate, follow up, and iterate. Long term testing is the only method to know factually how a product performs.


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On 7/13/2018 at 12:27 AM, Teken said:

It doesn't matter what brand switch you have. As a educated consumer you must test all LED bulbs first hand to see if they work. There are literally millions of stories of major brands offering quality products today then later down the road produce utter crap!!

Cree is one perfect example of this . . . emoji52.png

One must always test, document, validate, follow up, and iterate. Long term testing is the only method to know factually how a product performs.


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Teken, I disagree. As a consumer I should be able to depend on a "major" vendor to do the testing. It should not be incumbent on the consumer to do their testing for them. I work in the health world, would you want us "testing" devices on you to see if they worked without the vendor support? Don't think so. That is why we have vendor funded and coordinated trials. In this instance, I would expect Insteon to work with major bulb manufacturers to both develop criteria and then to test the bulbs for compliance. They should publish a list of validated bulbs. Given the fact that virtually nobody is using incandescent bulbs in new installs and most old fixtures any more, it seems silly that Insteon is hiding behind a "we use a triac and that doesn't always work with LED bulbs" attitude. Technology HAS moved on. Insteon bills themselves as a high-tech vendor but they are selling a product that they have admitted doesn't work reliably with current technology.

 

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44 minutes ago, raydoc said:

Teken, I disagree. As a consumer I should be able to depend on a "major" vendor to do the testing. It should not be incumbent on the consumer to do their testing for them. I work in the health world, would you want us "testing" devices on you to see if they worked without the vendor support? Don't think so. That is why we have vendor funded and coordinated trials. In this instance, I would expect Insteon to work with major bulb manufacturers to both develop criteria and then to test the bulbs for compliance. They should publish a list of validated bulbs. Given the fact that virtually nobody is using incandescent bulbs in new installs and most old fixtures any more, it seems silly that Insteon is hiding behind a "we use a triac and that doesn't always work with LED bulbs" attitude. Technology HAS moved on. Insteon bills themselves as a high-tech vendor but they are selling a product that they have admitted doesn't work reliably with current technology.

 

What you are stating here is the reality of the world ~ End of story. Microsoft has been using the consumer like almost any other software developer as their *Tester*. Whether a piece of software is rock solid really comes down to how complex or the lack there of. It goes with out saying how complex the software is will also directly relate to what outcome will be seen. There are billions of lines of code in the Windows operating system and every day there is a bug, hole, threat, found.

Why??

Because one can not test for all permutation, conditions, environments . . .

This is why the consumer will see something not known to the vendor and in this example ~ Microsoft.

With respect to the *Major Brands* Ford, Chrysler, GM have been making cars longer than any other maker in the free world combined. Yet, to this vary day they continue to produce some of the worst sh^t products known to man. Its not from a lack of talent its the very fact they build to a lower quality to maximize profit.

GM alone has the highest recalls and TSB between any of the Big 3 and over shadows all of the foreign makers in one single year!

Why??

Because their philosophy is to produce junk while making profit . . .

Companies like GM and millions of others in various industries think Oil & Gas know full well the cost to recall / fix cost way more than to litigate. And thus they will always follow the path of *Profit before People*.

Cree and similar companies have a model which is not unique to them which is to produce a high quality product. Afterwards, the mantra is to find ways to cut costs in the BOM.

To what end??

Profit before People . . .

In another life my only goal in life was to change that mentality, culture, and view. Sometimes I could, some times I couldn't, so the only solution was to fire the lot. Having been a head hunter for more than 25 years and working in hundreds of companies in terms of a *Corporate Raider*. I know full well why companies do what they do because its not magic. its plane and simple greed which is the embodiment of *Human*.

There are only two basic traits of *Human* and this has been since *Man* has set foot on this Earth.

Taking and killing . . .

With respect to Smartlabs / Insteon, they are no better or worse when it comes to being LED compliant / compatible. Many larger companies tout as being LED compatible. Yet, you will find installing a *Dollar Store* LED will in fact give you issues!

Why??

Its not because the X product isn't LED compatible its the simple fact the *Human* bought cheap sh^t! On the polar opposite you have a well known company like Cree who has taken their great name by simply letting some retard push the mentality of *Profit before People*. Phillips, Sylvania, Lightning Science, Luminus, are all major brands who don't hold such a view or business model.

I know this because their products are used in billions of homes, business, Government, military, etc!

I personally have used the majority of their LED products and 90% operate as I would expect which in the Insteon world do not put noise on the power line. They do not emit EMI / RFI to kill other products and pollute the users environment. They do not buzz, hum, flicker, strobe, or pulse nor do they in terms of Insteon become a noise maker / signal sucker.

Yet dim cleanly from 100 ~> X value.

In the end the consumer must be the tester and vigilante in their purchase . . .

Otherwise the outcome will be less than positive and you and others will not be in a happy place . . .

THE END . . . :lol:

    

 

 

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3 hours ago, raydoc said:

Teken, I disagree. As a consumer I should be able to depend on a "major" vendor to do the testing. It should not be incumbent on the consumer to do their testing for them. I work in the health world, would you want us "testing" devices on you to see if they worked without the vendor support? Don't think so. That is why we have vendor funded and coordinated trials. In this instance, I would expect Insteon to work with major bulb manufacturers to both develop criteria and then to test the bulbs for compliance. They should publish a list of validated bulbs. Given the fact that virtually nobody is using incandescent bulbs in new installs and most old fixtures any more, it seems silly that Insteon is hiding behind a "we use a triac and that doesn't always work with LED bulbs" attitude. Technology HAS moved on. Insteon bills themselves as a high-tech vendor but they are selling a product that they have admitted doesn't work reliably with current technology.

 

There are literally thousands of bulbs out there. Even within the same model lineup there could be 4 or 5 different versions. It's impossible for any mfg to test them all. At the end of the day it's your house. Only you can look out for what's best for your home. If that's too much to do, most likely you will run across situations like this more often (not just with bulbs). 

Insteon works reliably with led bulbs. Just not your bulbs. I've seen zwave have the same exact issues so it is not an insteon problem. It's an industry problem. Every bulb in my place is led and I have zero issues with them. That said; how low they dim, smoothness, and turning on varies (warm glow are by far the best). In trying things with different brands with the same bulbs, I've seen the same results.

I use to work in the healthcare industry. While they may not test on patients in the manner you describe, they do make their products with a narrow range of use. Any use outside that range is generally nor permitted or they will tell you it's at your own risk. 

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