Z-wave vs insteon switches and the ISY

[fasttimes]

I’ve never used z-wave switches and want to know how they compare to insteon.

Insteon switches can be linked together by using “insteon scenes” using the “manual” procedure of going from switch to switch.  The primary reason I bought an ISY was because I could setup insteon scenes from the ISY, and replace switches easily.  Do z-wave switches have their own scenes, so that they can be programmed from the ISY but don’t need the ISY to operate?  As for ISY scenes, am I correct in assuming you can call an ISY scene and it will execute your scene setting on z-wave devices like it does for insteon devices?

[lilyoyo1]

The answer is not as cut and dry with zwave as it is with Insteon. Some zwave devices can operate without the ISY after it has been linked to another. It all depends on what features the model switch you choose to use has. 

[brians]

To do scenes that have mix of insteon and z-wave requires ISY. This shouldn't matter since you should have ISY running always anyways.

I have a scene for  living room lamps that has a keypad linc button, insteon lamp linc dimmer, and a leviton Z-Wave plug-in dimmer. Different lamps plugged in to each dimming device. I can turn scene on from keypad or call scene from a program in ISY.

 

 

[oberkc]

To add to the input of others, I have had success with mixing insteon and z-wave devices in scenes, but only when the z-wave devices are scene responders.  I have had less success using a z-wave device as a scene controller.

My experience is relatively limited in this regard, having experimented with only a single brand of z-wave switch as controller, but I recall a couple of points:

- the brand of z-wave switch does matter.  Not all z-wave switches report a status change

- ISY v5.X may have improved z-wave capabilities in this regard.

Hopefully, others will correct me if I am wrong on any of those two points.

[paulbates]

3 hours ago, brians said:

To do scenes that have mix of insteon and z-wave requires ISY. This shouldn't matter since you should have ISY running always anyways.

I have a scene for  living room lamps that has a keypad linc button, insteon lamp linc dimmer, and a leviton Z-Wave plug-in dimmer. Different lamps plugged in to each dimming device. I can turn scene on from keypad or call scene from a program in ISY.

Hey Brian,

How closely do all scene responders respond time wise when z-wave and insteon are mixed? Example, when I press a linked insteon switch to insteon responders, they all come on instantly and at the same time. How does a mix of Insteon and z-wave behave?

Paul

[oberkc]

Paul,

In my case, z-wave devices do respond slower than insteon when used in mixed scenes.  For me, the insteon is pretty quick, but the z-wave has a more perceptible delay.  I would estimate the delay at almost a second.

[paulbates]

2 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Paul,

In my case, z-wave devices do respond slower than insteon when used in mixed scenes.  For me, the insteon is pretty quick, but the z-wave has a more perceptible delay.  I would estimate the delay at almost a second.

Brian. That's pretty good. It's good to hear a field report about how the integrated solution works.

Do you have any scenes where z-wave initiates the scene? If so, how does that work? Any other comments or thoughts on the insteon / z-wave integrated solution?

Thank you

Paul

[paulbates]

8 minutes ago, oberkc said:

8 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Paul,

In my case, z-wave devices do respond slower than insteon when used in mixed scenes.  For me, the insteon is pretty quick, but the z-wave has a more perceptible delay.  I would estimate the delay at almost a second.

 

Thanks oberkc, good report

Same questions for you... do you have insteon / z-wave scenes initiated by z-wave local controllers? If so, how does that work, and any other comments, thoughts... do's and don'ts?

Paul

[asbril]

3 hours ago, oberkc said:

Not all z-wave switches report a status change

You should be safe with Zwave Plus devices

[lilyoyo1]

A mixed scene will respond slower since insteon links are stored in each other while the ISY is processing the zwave command. I found the same to be true in the areas where my zwave motion sensor will trigger the lights.

[lilyoyo1]

Most newer zwave plus device will report status. However make sure the device you're using is a scene controller otherwise it still won't trigger another zwave device. You'll have status for reporting purposes, but your connected device will not respond

[paulbates]

6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

A mixed scene will respond slower since insteon links are stored in each other while the ISY is processing the zwave command. I found the same to be true in the areas where my zwave motion sensor will trigger the lights.

 

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Most newer zwave plus device will report status. However make sure the device you're using is a scene controller otherwise it still won't trigger another zwave device. You'll have status for reporting purposes, but your connected device will not respond

Got it, that's helpful. Something like a z-wave driveway motion sensor would be a good application where a gap between sense and activation won't get noticed. 

When you are saying "make sure the device you are using is a scene controller"... do you mean make sure its added in the ISY that way, or some devices have the capability to control scenes and others don't? If its the latter, is there a way to tell when shopping?

Thank you.

Paul

[lilyoyo1]

51 minutes ago, paulbates said:

 

Got it, that's helpful. Something like a z-wave driveway motion sensor would be a good application where a gap between sense and activation won't get noticed. 

When you are saying "make sure the device you are using is a scene controller"... do you mean make sure its added in the ISY that way, or some devices have the capability to control scenes and others don't? If its the latter, is there a way to tell when shopping?

Thank you.

Paul

You are exactly right in your example about the motion sensor. Any location that you walk towards would be suitable. 

To determine a scene controller you will need to make sure you read the description and fine print carefully

For example, this inovelli switch is capable of scene control https://inovelli.com/shop/smart-light-switches/z-wave-switch-on-off-scenes-repeater/

While this identical switch is not https://inovelli.com/shop/smart-light-switches/zwave-on-off-repeater-nzw30/

You can see the status from both. Only one will allow you to control something else though.

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, paulbates said:

Thanks oberkc, good report

Same questions for you... do you have insteon / z-wave scenes initiated by z-wave local controllers? If so, how does that work, and any other comments, thoughts... do's and don'ts?

Paul

Most of my z-wave devices are motion sensors, plug-in modules, and outlets.  I have only two switches that I would consider candidates to be a scene controller.  Both are the same brand and model (GE, I think, from Lowes).  I don't believe they are the z-wave plus variety.

On one of those, I have experimented with making it a scene controller with two other insteon devices as responders.  One device was  keypad button.  The other was a micro-module.  In that scene, the keypad button was also a controller.  

In my case, triggering the z-wave switch causes the micromodule to come on, but not the keypad button.  Alternatively, triggering the button causes both MM and zwave switch to toggle on/off as appropriate.

I notice that, unlike the micromodule, the keypad button has a more limited set of "actions" (command, default, ignore) in the scene definition (when zwave switch is selected) whereas the KPL button also includes an "on" action.   It is possible, in my mind, that most insteon devices would respond fine to z-wave controllers, but that this could be a limitation to the KPL button.  Perhaps this is an omission for the keypad button.  Perhaps I should report this somewhere?

[paulbates]

1 minute ago, oberkc said:

Most of my z-wave devices are motion sensors, plug-in modules, and outlets.  I have only two switches that I would consider candidates to be a scene controller.  Both are the same brand and model (GE, I think, from Lowes).  I don't believe they are the z-wave plus variety.

On one of those, I have experimented with making it a scene controller with two other insteon devices as responders.  One device was  keypad button.  The other was a micro-module.  In that scene, the keypad button was also a controller.  

In my case, triggering the z-wave switch causes the micromodule to come on, but not the keypad button.  Alternatively, triggering the button causes both MM and button to toggle on/off as appropriate.

I notice that, unlike the micromodule, the keypad button has a more limited set of "actions" (command, default, ignore) in the scene definition (when zwave switch is selected) whereas the KPL button also includes an "on" action.   It is possible, in my mind, that most insteon devices would respond fine to z-wave controllers, but that this could be a limitation to the KPL button.  Perhaps this is an omission for the keypad button.  Perhaps I should report this somewhere?

Thanks, those details are important to know as well. It would be worth posting the text of your investigation and report in the current v5.x release thread. From a high level, scenes are a key feature of keypads, I would want to extend that into scenes that include z-wave devices (controlled from either z-wave or insteon). Its either something to address, or a technical limitation... it would be good to hear from UDI what they think.

Paul

[oberkc]

Quote

It would be worth posting the text of your investigation and report in the current v5.x release thread.

I will post that when the ambition comes back (perhaps later today).

 

[MWareman]

To add to the input of others, I have had success with mixing insteon and z-wave devices in scenes, but only when the z-wave devices are scene responders.  I have had less success using a z-wave device as a scene controller.
My experience is relatively limited in this regard, having experimented with only a single brand of z-wave switch as controller, but I recall a couple of points:
- the brand of z-wave switch does matter.  Not all z-wave switches report a status change
- ISY v5.X may have improved z-wave capabilities in this regard.
Hopefully, others will correct me if I am wrong on any of those two points.

For a zwave device to work as a scene controller - it *must* support instant status (not HAIL or any other workaround). Likely, that significantly limits the choice of devices.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, MWareman said:

Likely, that significantly limits the choice of devices.

All Zwave Plus switches should have instant status reporting

[lilyoyo1]

It's not instant statusing that matters so much (obviously it does matter in the grand scheme of things) as scene capability. Without that you'll only know the device state vs knowing and controlling other devices.

[MWareman]

All Zwave Plus switches should have instant status reporting

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Certainly, the patent that prevented others from implementing instant status expired before zwave plus switches came out - but it depends on the willingness of the vendor to implement it in their product development cycle. I'm not sure all did that.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, MWareman said:

 

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Certainly, the patent that prevented others from implementing instant status expired before zwave plus switches came out - but it depends on the willingness of the vendor to implement it in their product development cycle. I'm not sure all did that.

 

It is not easy to find new Zwave switches without Plus and without Status Reporting. However as lilyo mentioned, not all have Scene capability.

[io_guy]

Plus alone won't do it.  The switch needs to support the central scene command class.