Program not acting as expected.

[andrew77]

Hi guys,

A little background before I get to my problem.

I have an 8 button mini remote that is always toggle on (or non toggle on I can't remember the wording)

Every press of the buttons sends an ON signal

This is so when I switch between the scenes they don't go to black before the next scene is turned on.

I'd like to be able to shut the scenes off as well so I thought this program would work.

Remote Cooking Off - [ID 001A][Parent 0001]

If
        Control 'BRRemote-C Cooking' is switched On
    And Control 'BRRemote-C Cooking' is switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Cooking' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

If the program is on and I turn it on again I thought it should shut off. I've done it with another program on the same remote (a fan that turns on)

But I get weird lighting that fades off and turns on again and other oddities.

I tried to look for an option that said 

"if the scene is true and the scene is turned on, then shut the scene off."

But I couldn't find that option in the drop down menus

 

I'm not sure what I've done wrong as I thought I did the same for the fan scene.

 

Drew

Edited September 18, 2018 by andrew77

[apostolakisl]

Did you mean to say  "if status is on" for one of those?  Having those two identical lines "anded" won't serve any purpose.

But using "status on" won't serve any purpose either for a kpl button that is set to send "on" only.  Since it will always be on anyway the line would be useless (always true), unless perhaps you have some other scene or program that shuts it off.

Is this KPL button's only task to shut the scene off?  If it is also used to turn the scene on, then that won't work.

Edited September 18, 2018 by apostolakisl

[oberkc]

I am uncertain of the unintended consequences of having two identical conditions.   I would get rid of one.

This program should shut off the scene "cooking" every time an ON command is received by pressing BRRemote-C Cooking.

This program should not cause lighting to fade off and turns on again and other oddities .  Is it possible that the remote-C button is also a scene controller?

There is no option for scene status.  You did not miss it.

[larryllix]

Remote Cooking Off - [ID 001A][Parent 0001]

If
        Control 'BRRemote-C Cooking' is switched On
Then
        Run (if) Program 'Remote Cooking Flip'
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

Remote Cooking Flip - [Disabled]
If
      Main_Scene_Device is its_Cooking_Off_Scene_value <----add as many devices as wanted to positively identify scene is on.
   AND
     Another_Scene_Device is its_Cooking_Off_Scene_value  
Then
        Set Scene 'Cooking' Off
Else
        Set Scene 'Cooking' On

Edited September 19, 2018 by larryllix

[andrew77]

 

Hi larryllix;

Thanks for the programming tips.

I think I understand most of it but I'm unclear on a few things.

First, the Remote Cooking Off - [ID 001A][Parent 0001] program seems pretty straight forward

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

If Main_Scene_Device is its_Cooking_Off_Scene_value <----add as many devices as wanted to positively identify scene is on.

If I understand the above correctly then I input some devices in the scene that would definitively let the ISY know the scene is true. (i.e. Kitchen Uppers 90%, Kitchen Sink 85%, etc)

 

I don't understand this bottom part. 

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

AND   Another_Scene_Device is its_Cooking_Off_Scene_value

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, andrew77 said:

 

Hi larryllix;

Thanks for the programming tips.

I think I understand most of it but I'm unclear on a few things.

First, the Remote Cooking Off - [ID 001A][Parent 0001] program seems pretty straight forward

If I understand the above correctly then I input some devices in the scene that would definitively let the ISY know the scene is true. (i.e. Kitchen Uppers 90%, Kitchen Sink 85%, etc)

 

I don't understand this bottom part. 

Insteon Scenes are constantly argued about with people trying to turn them on 40% and wanting a boolean flag that tells them if the scene is still turned on. These are not really possible.

Take an example of SceneTest. bulb1 = 100%,  bulb2 = 80%,  bulb3 = 60%, all with different ramp speeds.
Now if SceneTest is turned On and then you adjust bulb3 to 30% brightness, is SceneTest still on or is it off? What if somebody adjusted bulb3 with a different ramp speed? Is it still on? 
The status of a Scene is not clearly defined as it contains multiple levels and ramp rates of devices to get there. (IN Insteon)

The best you can do in you situation is to detect the major devices involved in your scene to determine whether you want to declare it still on or not. Also since dimming levels can vary slightly dues to round off in the math. eg: 99.6% may be considered 100% or 99%.
 

So to be perfect we end up with:
If
       bulb1  > 99%
    AND
       bulb2  >= 79%
    AND
       bulb2  <= 81%
    AND
       bulb3  >= 59%
    AND
       bulb3  <= 61%
Then
      --------

So to be lazy you can just detect the level of one bulb or a range allowance for every bulb involved. You have to decide what is considered "On" from the scene remnants.

To clarify the bottom lines I never post "Blah...blah....blah!", so the generic  statement had to suffice.

Edited September 19, 2018 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

I think you are making this too complicated.  You should not need any programs.  Don't use the toggle on only mode.   Just put the buttons into regular on/off mode.  You can switch between scenes at will and it will not make the lights turn off and then back on.  For example, say you have 4 lights and 2 scenes.

Scene 1 KPL button a is controller of scene, all else below are responders:

light a on level 80%

light b on level 50%

light c on level 0%

light d on level 10%

kpl button b on level 0ff  (realize that the kpl button here is a responder, when it responds and is shut off, it does NOT execute its "duties" as a controller of scene 2).

 

Scene 2  KPL button b is controller, all else below are responders:

light a on level 20%

light b  on level 10%

light c on level 100%

light d on level 0%

kpl button a on level 0ff  (and vice-versa of what I said for scene 1)

 

Push KPL button a and will go directly to those settings.  Push KPL button b and it will go directly to those settings (it won't go off first).  Push KPL button a when KPL button a is already on, it will shut all 4 devices off and all both kpl buttons off.

 

The only thing you might want a program for is if one of those 4 lights changes status independent of the scene (ie someone pushes the button directly).  In that case, you might want the kpl buttons to turn off (not have the backlight on).  For example, the 4 lights in scene 1 have specific levels defined.  When you turn on scene 1, the kpl will light up.  Now if someone manually turns one of the lights off, you might want the kpl button to go dark.  A program that checks for any change in the status of those 4 lights can be used to turn it off.  This is a little complex and you may not care to do it, so I'll skip it here.

 

[andrew77]

Hi apostolakisi

I'm not sure if it matters but I'm not using a KPL here, I'm using a mini remotelinc

The reason I have the remote in toggle on only is I'll push the C button and the scene turns on, no problem.

I can push other buttons and those scenes turn on.

But when I press the C button again to go back to that scene the button is in an ON state so now I shut it off. All the lights fade to black.

So the Toggle on only setting for the remote works because anytime anyone presses the button the scene comes on. 

I can shut the scene off with a KPL that also runs the scene but isn't a part of what we're talking about here. 

I was able to program the G button on the remotelinc for this. 

(I'm at work but when I get home I can post that program)

When I tried to duplicate it for this issue it didn't work.

 

larryllix;

 

I'll try to do what you've suggested when I get home. I'm not super clear on it but if I read slowly with my finger to help I may get an acceptable result.

 

[apostolakisl]

30 minutes ago, andrew77 said:

Hi apostolakisi

I'm not sure if it matters but I'm not using a KPL here, I'm using a mini remotelinc

The reason I have the remote in toggle on only is I'll push the C button and the scene turns on, no problem.

I can push other buttons and those scenes turn on.

But when I press the C button again to go back to that scene the button is in an ON state so now I shut it off. All the lights fade to black.

So the Toggle on only setting for the remote works because anytime anyone presses the button the scene comes on. 

I can shut the scene off with a KPL that also runs the scene but isn't a part of what we're talking about here. 

I was able to program the G button on the remotelinc for this. 

(I'm at work but when I get home I can post that program)

When I tried to duplicate it for this issue it didn't work.

 

larryllix;

 

I'll try to do what you've suggested when I get home. I'm not super clear on it but if I read slowly with my finger to help I may get an acceptable result.

 

That is because you didn't set the other buttons as responders with "off" as the "on-level".  The last line in each of those two scenes would fix that problem.  While I don't have a mini-remote linc, I believe they function the same as a kpl just without backlights (since that would kill the battery).  EDIT:  Also, please note that this example is for 2 buttons controlling 2 scenes.  If you had 3 scenes, then there would be 2 lines at the end shutting off the other 2 buttons, and so on if you had 4 scenes, or 5 or whatever.

Again, the only caveat is if you manually change a device in the scene.  For example, push button a, scene a turns on.  The button a will currently have an "on" status.  Now say you manually do something to one or more of the lights in the scene.  That button a will still be registered as "on" even though the scene is no longer technically on.  If you push button a at this point, the entire set of lights will shut off.  It would be more appropriate at that point for a push of button a to turn the scene back "on".

Edited September 19, 2018 by apostolakisl

[oberkc]

Quote

 the button is in an ON state so now I shut it off.

Andrew77, for what it is worth (which may be nothing) I don't believe those little remotelincs have a button status.  They are neither ON nor OFF.

[apostolakisl]

11 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Andrew77, for what it is worth (which may be nothing) I don't believe those little remotelincs have a button status.  They are neither ON nor OFF.

I can't say for certain either, but the behavior he describes would indicate they do.  Since he says it turned the scene off when he tried to "go back" to that scene.  If it didn't know that its last press was to go on, then how would it know that the next press is to go "off".  

 

EDIT:  Also, per his report, it has the ability to be set to "on only" or "on/off".  It would have to remember its status to be able to function in an "on/off" fashion using the same button.

Edited September 19, 2018 by apostolakisl

[andrew77]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

kpl button b on level 0ff  (realize that the kpl button here is a responder, when it responds and is shut off, it does NOT execute its "duties" as a controller of scene 2).

Since this is for the KPL, does anyone know if the remotelinc buttons can be told to have an on level off?

 

[apostolakisl]

19 minutes ago, andrew77 said:

Since this is for the KPL, does anyone know if the remotelinc buttons can be told to have an on level off?

 

I'd be shocked if you can't.  Just log into your admin console, right click the the remotelinc button in question and add it to your scene as a responder (ie add button b to scene controlled by button a).  Scroll down to the scene, and click on the controlling device for the scene (ie button a which will be shown in red).  Then you'll see a list of devices on the right with their "on level" and ramp rate for the scene when controlled by (in this case) button a.  Click on the remotelinc button b in the right hand top window, and you should see options for both on and off in the right bottom window.

 

EDIT: And if you should also set the "on level" to "off" for the scene when controlled by ISY by clicking on the name of the scene itself in the left menu and then doing the same thing to the right hand windows as above.

 

EDIT 2:  Just to summarize, what you are making here is referred to as "radio buttons"  Like in the old fashioned car radio.  Pressing any of the 5 or so preset buttons would cause whatever other button was already depressed to pop out.  Only one button can ever be on at any given time.

Edited September 19, 2018 by apostolakisl

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

I can't say for certain either, but the behavior he describes would indicate they do.  Since he says it turned the scene off when he tried to "go back" to that scene.  If it didn't know that its last press was to go on, then how would it know that the next press is to go "off".  

 

EDIT:  Also, per his report, it has the ability to be set to "on only" or "on/off".  It would have to remember its status to be able to function in an "on/off" fashion using the same button.

All may be true, but I did not think one could command that remotelinc2 to change status.  It cannot be a responder to a scene.  Like I say...may not be worth much.

But, in light of follow-up question, perhaps it had some value.

Quote

Since this is for the KPL, does anyone know if the remotelinc buttons can be told to have an on level off?

I think the answer is "no".  Perhaps part of that reason is because it is a battery device and is not constantly listening.  Or, perhaps apostolaksl is correct.  My recollection is that the remotelincs cannot be responder to a scene.

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by oberkc

[apostolakisl]

Just now, oberkc said:

All may be true, but I did not think one could command that remotelinc2 to change status.  It cannot be a responder to a scene.  Like I say...may not be worth much.

That may be true.  It is a battery powered device so it goes to sleep and thus can't respond.  It may be an "outbound" only device.

[larryllix]

I have two RemoteLincs. They have no local indications on them and only send the keypress events.

They are somewhat programmable for Toggle operation, dual button On/Off operation, or Independent button operations same as the KPL.
I use one  spare RemoteLinc (they are both spare since Alexa came) to initiate one of sixteen programs for testing. This was a leftover from a lighting animation I did for a circus tent ceiling once, using sixteen different animation speeds and styles, all controlled through ISY from the RemoteLinc on my person during the festivities.

[apostolakisl]

Back to the OP.

It appears that using scenes with the remotelinc will not work based on that fact that you can not send a status update to a remotelinc.  So you will need to rely on programs.  Unfortunately, programs have a lag as compared to the near instant response of a scene, but unless you want to switch to using kpl's, that will be your only option.  Just fyi, they make desktop enclosures for kpl switches with a wire that you plug in to an outlet.

[smokegrub]

For what its worth, I just completed setting up a tabletop enclosure with a KPL. Works beautifully!

[andrew77]

Hi guys,

thanks for all the help but I have to admit some of it goes over my head. 

 

New Program - [ID 0018][Parent 0001]

If
        Status  'Big Room Fan' is On
    And Control 'BRRemote-G' is switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Big Room Fans' Fast Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

This has worked for the mini remote no problem.

 

 

But this almost works perfectly.

It turns the scene on when the light is off. 

And when the light is on the scene shuts off when the mini remote is pressed.

But it fades back up after a delay.

Remote Cooking Off

If
        Status  'Kitchen Sink' is not Off
    And Control 'BRRemote-C Cooking' is switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Cooking' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

I don't understand the difference.

One thing of note.I don't get the option to select ON with the Kitchen Sink device where I do get the option with the FAN device.

Is it because the fan is a non dimming SWL and the Kitchen Sink is a dimmable SWL?

I'd love to get this working like I have it for the FAN scene.

I don't understand why the failure with other scenes?

 

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, andrew77 said:

Hi guys,

thanks for all the help but I have to admit some of it goes over my head. 

 

New Program - [ID 0018][Parent 0001]

If
        Status  'Big Room Fan' is On
    And Control 'BRRemote-G' is switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Big Room Fans' Fast Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

This has worked for the mini remote no problem.

 

 

But this almost works perfectly.

It turns the scene on when the light is off. 

And when the light is on the scene shuts off when the mini remote is pressed.

But it fades back up after a delay.

Remote Cooking Off

If
        Status  'Kitchen Sink' is not Off
    And Control 'BRRemote-C Cooking' is switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Cooking' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

I don't understand the difference.

One thing of note.I don't get the option to select ON with the Kitchen Sink device where I do get the option with the FAN device.

Is it because the fan is a non dimming SWL and the Kitchen Sink is a dimmable SWL?

I'd love to get this working like I have it for the FAN scene.

I don't understand why the failure with other scenes?

 

This sounds like you still have scenes connected to your trigger devices. I see nothing in your program to ramp the light back on.

I cannot tell what is connected to what from your program labels, but usually the Status in the first line is a problem for causing oscillation of programs. I don't know why people keep checking to see if a device is in one state before changing it but, in your case being Anded with an edge trigger line the program  should be OK.

Edited September 26, 2018 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

There is nothing that you have listed here that turns the scene on (or devices in that scene).  You would have to share with us the program that turns the scene on.  And/Or any other way the lights in the scene get turned on.  My bet is you have another program that turns the scene on using that same remote linc button where the two programs are fighting each other.