Extending range to Barn

[apuglisi]

Hello,

 

I have a whole-house Insteon deployment with a single ISY994i 1024 IR (works great) that I'm now trying to extend to my barn, about 600 feet away.  The barn is fed from a separate panel that is split before the house panels.  Although I have many Insteon devices distributed among three panels in my house, I suspect the dual band feature is allowing everything to talk seamlessly.

 

Since my barn is 600 feet away, I need help trying to extend the network such that I can link keypad buttons and maintain ISY monitoring/control.  I have a working Ethernet run to the barn feeding a WiFi Access-Point.

 

I purchased two Range Extenders (Model 2992-222) but it's not apparent how I'm supposed to install it for my situation, if it applies to me.

 

Can someone offer ideas to help me extend my Insteon network to the barn please?

 

These are my ideas so far:

- Run a 14-2 circuit from one of my house panels to the barn and connect a Range Extender on both ends (one end in the house, and one end in the barn).  It would be a 600+ foot run, is 14-2 sufficient to carry the signal?

- The 200-amp breaker feeding the barn is within RF range of the home Insteon network, similar to the first option above, I could maybe install a receptacle inside the panel to plug in the Range Extender on both ends.  Extending on the above, the signal would run across a 4/0 cable, maybe a more reliable signal medium?

- Since I have ethernet in the barn, could I buy a second ISY controller and have it act as a repeater (?).  or are there any Insteon-Ethernet bridges to serve that purpose?  or any 3rd party devices?

- Can two PowerLinc devices do something for me?  I could run a dedicated Cat-5 between the buildings and use a PowerLinc on each end?  If so, which PowerLinc and is the wiring straight or "null-modem"?

Can you think of any other options?  And if not, which option above would be my highest probability of success in your opinion?

 

The panel that feeds the barn is not climate controlled, only weather-tight.  Also, the barn is not climate controlled either, but does stay below 95 degrees on the hottest days (central Maryland).

 

I have a software engineering background, so if a second ISY is viable with some programming, I'm willing to give it a try.

Finally - I am just starting to play with Home Assistant and HASS.io.  There may be a solution to my problem in there, but I'd rather try to solve this more with as much "purity" as possible.

 

How can I learn about the signalling of the dual band Insteon?  Maybe there's a 3rd party RF modulator/demodulator I can purchase to capture the Insteon signal, xmit over ethernet, and re-emanate it in the barn....

 

I'm impressed if you've read this entire post - it shows you're committed to helping others...so thank you especially just for that.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Take care...

 

 

[apostolakisl]

I did a similar situation with my church.  I basically ran an "extension cord" between the two buildings.  This plugged into building 1 where the main network is located and at the end of that cord at the entry to building two is a dual band on/off module (with nothing plugged into it).  That dual band device repeats the signal between the two electric systems.  It works great.  It is not 600 feet long, it is probably 150 feet.  I have at home a 300 foot run of power cable that provides insteon com without issue.  I think 600 feet would probably be fine if it is a dedicated wire without any interference.

[oberkc]

30 minutes ago, apuglisi said:

I have a software engineering background, so if a second ISY is viable with some programming, I'm willing to give it a try.

I recall a thread about the use of 2 ISY devices, communicating with each other via network module.  Unfortunately, I cannot find it.  Perhaps another can remember it.  That seems to me to be the most promising option.

 

[larryllix]

I have to concur with Apostolakisl's ideas and reports.

I have read a few cases where people have connected an out building 500' away before but not 600'. If the circuit is fairly noise free, I don't see why the powerline signals would not do it. OTOH, signal extenders may work off RF only and not work at this distance.

Try a couple of plug-in modules at receptacles very close to each panel, to get a feel if it will work. Make sure they are both on the same phase of the grid.

[apuglisi]

Thank you all for the suggestions.  I'll try the "extension cord" route.  It'll be a few weeks before I get into it, but I will report back to this thread with results.

[apostolakisl]

4 hours ago, apuglisi said:

Thank you all for the suggestions.  I'll try the "extension cord" route.  It'll be a few weeks before I get into it, but I will report back to this thread with results.

Let us know how it goes.

Just to be clear, you are NOT connecting the electrical systems with the extension cord.  You are just putting a dual band device close to building 2 running it off building 1's power system.  The idea is then that you have dual band device's inside of building 2 that receive the rf from the dual band device on the end of that 'extension cord" and "inject" the Insteon signal into building 2.  This is the same concept as connecting power phases within a single building.

My suggestion to you would be to trial it out before a permanent/trenched install.  Perhaps you have 600 feet of actual extension cord on hand, if so, I'd just plug those guys in and stretch it across the yard.  If all works well, get yourself some burial grade 14 gauge 2 plus ground and trench it over.  You might also consider dropping some fiber in the trench if you want to share internet.  I also did that.

[mwester]

Let me add to the excellent (and important) advice given by apostolakisl -- since your barn is on a separate panel, it also has it's own ground line, and therefore has it's own idea of what "ground" level, in electrical terms, means.  What I'm trying to say is that you MUST ensure that the cable you run to that barn has NO possibility of contacting anything in that barn, especially if it can do so through a human being or an animal.  The concept is called "stray voltage" on farms [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_voltage], and is the cause of huge economic losses [https://www.calt.iastate.edu/article/stray-voltage-and-dairy-farms-can-lead-large-damage-awards] -- in trivial situations it causes problems such as distress in animals (due to mild electrical shocks whenever they touch even the walls or structures in the barn, and in more significant situations, it causes death or injury to humans or animals.

Best thing to do -- bring that "extension cord" (I hate that term -- it conjures up images of some foolish person running 600 feet of Home Depot orange extension cords across their lawn, or in a trench... gah!) -- anyway, bring that cord end up out of the trench 20 feet or so away from the barn in question inside a heavy, large PVC (not metal) conduit.  That conduit length should terminate in a large PVC electrical box (available at any home store), and do the wiring to your RF-capable device inside that box.  Make the assumption that the so-called "ground wire" will be just as "hot" as the black and white wires, and let NO metal conductors escape that PVC box!

As for the fiber -- optical fiber doesn't conduct electricity, nor does it pick up voltage surges from lightening strikes, so feel free to run that between the buildings and terminate it inside each building without any special considerations.  Fiber is a *wonderful* thing that way!

[apostolakisl]

9 hours ago, mwester said:

Let me add to the excellent (and important) advice given by apostolakisl -- since your barn is on a separate panel, it also has it's own ground line, and therefore has it's own idea of what "ground" level, in electrical terms, means.  What I'm trying to say is that you MUST ensure that the cable you run to that barn has NO possibility of contacting anything in that barn, especially if it can do so through a human being or an animal.  The concept is called "stray voltage" on farms [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_voltage], and is the cause of huge economic losses [https://www.calt.iastate.edu/article/stray-voltage-and-dairy-farms-can-lead-large-damage-awards] -- in trivial situations it causes problems such as distress in animals (due to mild electrical shocks whenever they touch even the walls or structures in the barn, and in more significant situations, it causes death or injury to humans or animals.

Best thing to do -- bring that "extension cord" (I hate that term -- it conjures up images of some foolish person running 600 feet of Home Depot orange extension cords across their lawn, or in a trench... gah!) -- anyway, bring that cord end up out of the trench 20 feet or so away from the barn in question inside a heavy, large PVC (not metal) conduit.  That conduit length should terminate in a large PVC electrical box (available at any home store), and do the wiring to your RF-capable device inside that box.  Make the assumption that the so-called "ground wire" will be just as "hot" as the black and white wires, and let NO metal conductors escape that PVC box!

As for the fiber -- optical fiber doesn't conduct electricity, nor does it pick up voltage surges from lightening strikes, so feel free to run that between the buildings and terminate it inside each building without any special considerations.  Fiber is a *wonderful* thing that way!

I put a 10ma fuse on the hot wire and didn't connect ground.  A dual band range extender doesn't require a ground wire and with no load connected draws less than 1 watt (or in other words less than 10ma). But I did not terminate the wire out in the yard like mwester suggested, I went into the building and put an Insteon range extender right there.  What I did (in my opinion) is quite safe, but would not pass code.  What he said could pass code but only if you hard wired the dual band device.  If you just wired a 15amp receptacle, you would need ~ 2awg wire to pass code at that distance and that would cost mucho dinaro.  If you hard wire the device in, you only need a wire gauge sufficient to prevent voltage drop at the specific amp draw of the hard wired device.  And a lamplinc or range extender draws so few amps that 14 gauge wire would be way more than sufficient.  If smaller wire existed, you could use it, but I don't think such wire exists.  In all likelihood, you are not going to care about code and you are just going to know that when you install a 15 amp receptacle in your outdoor sealed up box, that you aren't going to plug anything into it except your dual band device.  You might consider zip-tieing the dual band device to the single outlet receptacle and include a warning note to use it for nothing else (just in case you die and the next yahoo who owns the property gets any ideas).

In addition to the grounding issues mwester mentioned, it is also a huge risk to all your electronics to connect grounds on two different buildings.  For example, a lightening strike anywhere nearby will raise a static charge in the earth that drops exponentially as you radiate away from the impact strike.  That could create a big voltage difference between the grounds in the two buildings and electrons would be like "woooohoooo we can use this nice copper wire to neutralize that difference instead of this crappy conducting dirt" and they would merrily fly down that wire en mass causing all kinds of havoc.  Proper grounding is a quite a subject, but basically you only want a single point of ground on any system.  There are very elaborate exceptions to that, but no homeowner would ever do those.

[larryllix]

10 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I put a 10ma fuse on the hot wire and didn't connect ground.  A dual band range extender doesn't require a ground wire and with no load connected draws less than 1 watt (or in other words less than 10ma). But I did not terminate the wire out in the yard like mwester suggested, I went into the building and put an Insteon range extender right there.  What I did (in my opinion) is quite safe, but would not pass code.  What he said could pass code but only if you hard wired the dual band device.  If you just wired a 15amp receptacle, you would need ~ 2awg wire to pass code at that distance and that would cost mucho dinaro.  If you hard wire the device in, you only need a wire gauge sufficient to prevent voltage drop at the specific amp draw of the hard wired device.  And a lamplinc or range extender draws so few amps that 14 gauge wire would be way more than sufficient.  If smaller wire existed, you could use it, but I don't think such wire exists.  In all likelihood, you are not going to care about code and you are just going to know that when you install a 15 amp receptacle in your outdoor sealed up box, that you aren't going to plug anything into it except your dual band device.  You might consider zip-tieing the dual band device to the single outlet receptacle and include a warning note to use it for nothing else (just in case you die and the next yahoo who owns the property gets any ideas).

In addition to the grounding issues mwester mentioned, it is also a huge risk to all your electronics to connect grounds on two different buildings.  For example, a lightening strike anywhere nearby will raise a static charge in the earth that drops exponentially as you radiate away from the impact strike.  That could create a big voltage difference between the grounds in the two buildings and electrons would be like "woooohoooo we can use this nice copper wire to neutralize that difference instead of this crappy conducting dirt" and they would merrily fly down that wire en mass causing all kinds of havoc.  Proper grounding is a quite a subject, but basically you only want a single point of ground on any system.  There are very elaborate exceptions to that, but no homeowner would ever do those.

I was just going to add about the same words as Apostolakisl. You don't want two grounds and his analogy was excellent.

Further than the zip-tie, you may consider a wired in module to avoid the exposed 3-prong receptacle without a ground and the second connectable feed to the outbuilding, that violate the safety codes.

[apuglisi]

Thank you all for the clarification and safety guidance.  I'll be sure not to introduce any such risks when I try this.  To repeat it back, I plan to run #12 THHN from my house panel to the barn via a spare, dedicated conduit.  On the barn-end, I'll terminate the THHN to a single receptacle near the barn panel and I'll label the enclosure accordingly.

I'll do this all above ground to make sure the signal actually propagates that far.

I'll report back in the coming weeks (can't do it any time soon)

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, apuglisi said:

Thank you all for the clarification and safety guidance.  I'll be sure not to introduce any such risks when I try this.  To repeat it back, I plan to run #12 THHN from my house panel to the barn via a spare, dedicated conduit.  On the barn-end, I'll terminate the THHN to a single receptacle near the barn panel and I'll label the enclosure accordingly.

I'll do this all above ground to make sure the signal actually propagates that far.

I'll report back in the coming weeks (can't do it any time soon)

I doubt using 12awg instead of 14 is going to do anything but cost you more.  Since you only need one watt of power either way.  Perhaps someone who knows more about Insteon PLC could chime in and say if 12awg has any better PLC comm than 14.  It has been my assumption that the wire gauge has little to do with the PLC strength.

[apuglisi]

All - as you know, I started the thread with several theories to extend my Insteon network to my barn 600 feet away.  While I was gung-ho on running a 14 or 12 gauge power line from my house to the barn, I was a few weeks away from getting help to do that.

So - since I already had an extra cat-5 run to the barn, I made a null modem RJ-45 RS-232 connector and plugged a PowerLinc Modem (Model 2413S) on each end. It immediately started working and I was able to "see" my barn's Insteon light switch!

All is good, and no risk of violating electrical and safety codes.  That said, the power line run would have been a good exercise to see how far distance the inherent protocol would have gone.

A little more background for others in a similar situation:

- On the PLM documentation, it had a "NOTE: each byte sent to PowerLinc Modem will be echoed back to the host" that had me concerned events would perpetuate an endless loop...luckily that didn't happen, I monitored the events on my ISY admin console (Tools->Diagnostics->Event Viewer..."Option 3: Device communication events") and there was no babbling at all, just normal traffic.  I am assuming the babbling is mitigated in the Insteon communication protocol itself.

- To make the RJ-45 null-modem cable, I did the following on one end (cross pin 1&8, cross pin 3&6, straight pin 7).  It's easier to do this with pass-thru RJ-45 connectors wires push through the connector and then trimmed after crimping).  For me, my cable was T-568B so I crossed Orange/White & Brown, Green/White & Green, Brown/White remained straight as with the others.

<table border=1>

  <tr> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> <td> straight </td> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> </tr>

</table>

 

[oberkc]

So...you have three PLMs total.. a plm hooked to the ISY and then one on each end of your rj45 cable?

[apuglisi]

correct, and I'm working on adding a fourth PLM to a Mac Mini computer running HASS to supplement some of the actions that are infeasible with the ISY (programmatically collect devices, set consistent attributes such as ramp-up/down time, all-off/all-on by arbitrary folder structure/naming convention (versus managing scenes interactively via ISY admin interface).  I am recovering from back surgery, so I have a lot of laptop time to kill while I'm on restrictions.  The PLM to Mac Mini is all theory, I don't know if I can do these things yet, but it's a scripting environment so hopefully more flexible.

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, apuglisi said:

All - as you know, I started the thread with several theories to extend my Insteon network to my barn 600 feet away.  While I was gung-ho on running a 14 or 12 gauge power line from my house to the barn, I was a few weeks away from getting help to do that.

So - since I already had an extra cat-5 run to the barn, I made a null modem RJ-45 RS-232 connector and plugged a PowerLinc Modem (Model 2413S) on each end. It immediately started working and I was able to "see" my barn's Insteon light switch!

All is good, and no risk of violating electrical and safety codes.  That said, the power line run would have been a good exercise to see how far distance the inherent protocol would have gone.

A little more background for others in a similar situation:

- On the PLM documentation, it had a "NOTE: each byte sent to PowerLinc Modem will be echoed back to the host" that had me concerned events would perpetuate an endless loop...luckily that didn't happen, I monitored the events on my ISY admin console (Tools->Diagnostics->Event Viewer..."Option 3: Device communication events") and there was no babbling at all, just normal traffic.  I am assuming the babbling is mitigated in the Insteon communication protocol itself.

- To make the RJ-45 null-modem cable, I did the following on one end (cross pin 1&8, cross pin 3&6, straight pin 7).  It's easier to do this with pass-thru RJ-45 connectors wires push through the connector and then trimmed after crimping).  For me, my cable was T-568B so I crossed Orange/White & Brown, Green/White & Green, Brown/White remained straight as with the others.

<table border=1>

  <tr> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> <td> straight </td> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> </tr>

</table>

 

This probably doesn't violate code, but it is dangerous.  The copper in the cat5 wire is connecting the two buildings grounding systems since your PLMs are powered by each building.  Even if you chop off the PLM grounding pin, the neutral side is still tied to ground at the box.  You are inviting a lightening strike disaster here.  I can't really quantify the risk to life, but the risk to your electronics is very high.  I ground lightening strike in the area is likely to fry your PLMs and maybe more.  Plus it sounds like you have more than 1 cat5(6) with the other(s) doing internet?

I can tell you some well meaning people at my church ran cat 5 between the buildings and about 2 years later a lightening strike did thousands in damage to our sound system.  The sound system was connected to the LAN and you could follow the path that the power took, frying the boards most directly connected and sparing others.  I replaced the copper cat 5 with fiber.  That works great for IP since fiber to cat5 converters at each end are only $50 each and fiber is cheap.  I would highly recommend you do that instead of using copper for your internet.  As far as the RS-232, I don't know about converting that to fiber each end.  Also, 600 feet is a pretty long run for copper, but I guess it is working.

In general . . .NEVER connect two separate buildings with a conductor.

Lastly, it is great to know you can do the PLM to PLM thing like that.  Thanks for sharing that.

EDIT: I don't know if fuses would be fast enough, but maybe someone does know if you put a fast blow fuse on each piece of the cat5, maybe that would arrest a lightening strike.  Or maybe someone makes a purpose built device for that.

[mwester]

I too see smoke and sadness in your future. 

 

Gas-discharge arresters are commonly used by HAM radio operators to protect in such a situation (it's not uncommon for an antenna tower to be hundreds of feet from the actual radio, and it's common for the cabling to include not only RF coaxial cables, but also control cables for antenna rotators, etc.) 

It's worth noting, though, that lightening protection used in these situations is intended to protect life and limb, and prevent fires -- it does NOT necessarily protect your PLMs!  (More specifically, a common gas-discharge arrester trips at ~100V, and your PLM's serial chips will likely fry at 24 - 50V).  I use a gas-discharge unit for ethernet on either end of my cat-5 run from the house to the workshop -- but I also use an old scrap 100MBit "sacrificial" ethernet switch at each end to protect the more expensive gigabit switches in each building.  I can replace those 100Mbit units for $10 on eBay...

Diode-clamping can be used in addition to the arrester -- but frankly, by the time you add all that in, your costs are pretty high.  If this was just a detached garage located a few feet from the house, no problem -- but 600' is a long way, and at that distance ground != ground any more.

So - minimum suggestion is to use a gigabit-rated ethernet lightening arrester on each end of that 600' run, and be prepared to replace the PLMs periodically.

[apostolakisl]

I could not be happier with my two tp link devices.  

https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Ethernet-Converter-Multi-Mode-MC200CM/dp/B003AVRLZI

plus fiber

https://www.amazon.com/Meter-Multimode-Duplex-Fiber-Optic/dp/B00804KR5Q/ref=pd_bxgy_147_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&amp;pd_rd_i=B0053H51I6&amp;pd_rd_r=7cf8e8b0-dd41-11e8-bf93-dbc3134547a0&amp;pd_rd_w=McBoB&amp;pd_rd_wg=w9T3l&amp;pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&amp;pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&amp;pf_rd_p=6725dbd6-9917-451d-beba-16af7874e407&amp;pf_rd_r=RDWA8MJYEX8V5S1HWKB5&amp;pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&amp;pf_rd_t=40701&amp;refRID=RDWA8MJYEX8V5S1HWKB5&amp;th=1

The fiber in yard is in conduit and survived a backhoe incident even though the conduit got torn to shreds (there was slack inside the buildings).

OF NOTE: You must plug a gigabit switch/device at each end.  100mbs does not sync.

[giesen]

Since it's just serial, he could use a fibre RS232 extender and eliminate the risk of bridging the two electrical systems. Instant optical isolation

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

[apuglisi]

5 hours ago, mwester said:

I too see smoke and sadness in your future. 

 

Gas-discharge arresters are commonly used by HAM radio operators to protect in such a situation (it's not uncommon for an antenna tower to be hundreds of feet from the actual radio, and it's common for the cabling to include not only RF coaxial cables, but also control cables for antenna rotators, etc.) 

It's worth noting, though, that lightening protection used in these situations is intended to protect life and limb, and prevent fires -- it does NOT necessarily protect your PLMs!  (More specifically, a common gas-discharge arrester trips at ~100V, and your PLM's serial chips will likely fry at 24 - 50V).  I use a gas-discharge unit for ethernet on either end of my cat-5 run from the house to the workshop -- but I also use an old scrap 100MBit "sacrificial" ethernet switch at each end to protect the more expensive gigabit switches in each building.  I can replace those 100Mbit units for $10 on eBay...

Diode-clamping can be used in addition to the arrester -- but frankly, by the time you add all that in, your costs are pretty high.  If this was just a detached garage located a few feet from the house, no problem -- but 600' is a long way, and at that distance ground != ground any more.

So - minimum suggestion is to use a gigabit-rated ethernet lightening arrester on each end of that 600' run, and be prepared to replace the PLMs periodically.

 

Damn - I overlooked the copper in the CAT-5...I just ordered two lighting arrester's to 'stop the bleeding'....The other CAT-5 is PoE for a UniFi Wireless AP, not connected to the electrical system in the barn.

In a few weeks, I'll replace all the copper with fiber and the appropriate adapters.  I didn't realize multi-mode could run that far, but I see it available on Amazon.

You're good people to keep us laymen in check - thank you!

[apostolakisl]

On 10/31/2018 at 10:16 AM, apuglisi said:

All - as you know, I started the thread with several theories to extend my Insteon network to my barn 600 feet away.  While I was gung-ho on running a 14 or 12 gauge power line from my house to the barn, I was a few weeks away from getting help to do that.

So - since I already had an extra cat-5 run to the barn, I made a null modem RJ-45 RS-232 connector and plugged a PowerLinc Modem (Model 2413S) on each end. It immediately started working and I was able to "see" my barn's Insteon light switch!

All is good, and no risk of violating electrical and safety codes.  That said, the power line run would have been a good exercise to see how far distance the inherent protocol would have gone.

A little more background for others in a similar situation:

- On the PLM documentation, it had a "NOTE: each byte sent to PowerLinc Modem will be echoed back to the host" that had me concerned events would perpetuate an endless loop...luckily that didn't happen, I monitored the events on my ISY admin console (Tools->Diagnostics->Event Viewer..."Option 3: Device communication events") and there was no babbling at all, just normal traffic.  I am assuming the babbling is mitigated in the Insteon communication protocol itself.

- To make the RJ-45 null-modem cable, I did the following on one end (cross pin 1&8, cross pin 3&6, straight pin 7).  It's easier to do this with pass-thru RJ-45 connectors wires push through the connector and then trimmed after crimping).  For me, my cable was T-568B so I crossed Orange/White & Brown, Green/White & Green, Brown/White remained straight as with the others.

<table border=1>

  <tr> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 2: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 4: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 5: Not connected </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 6: TTL input (from PLM) </td> <td> </td> <td> Pin 3: TTL output (from PLM) </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> <td> straight </td> <td> Pin 7: Common ground </td> </tr>

  <tr> <td> Pin 8: RS232 from PC pin 3 (Tx) </td> <td> cross </td> <td> Pin 1: RS232 to PC pin 2 (Rx) </td> </tr>

</table>

 

has anyone else tried this?  I tried it and it did not work.  I used a brand new PLM and an old one that I had recapped that for whatever reason had a dead radio.  I isolated the one with a dead radio behind a UPS and made a short 3 foot "crossover" cable.  I tried doing just the RS232 contacts, just the TTL contacts, and one with both TTL and RS232.  Either way, I got no communication to the PLM behind the UPS.  The PLM does communicate when not power line isolated behind the UPS.

I doubt it, but perhaps the older PLM is the issue?  But that PLM does communicate with ISY via the serial cable and it does communicate with other Insteon devices using the power line comm.