New Insteon Motion Sensor 2844-222 set up and test

[paulbates]

45 minutes ago, redridge said:

Paul one last question.  Would it be possible to assimilate the X-10 transmitters since I have so many buttons with the keypadlincs?  As it is now I can manually select a load button or a small group of buttons and then brighten or dim them all with the non-LED single bright/dim button.  This would be a user selected scene implementation rather than a PROM resident scene in the device.  I would have to use some of the up and down button caps from the A/V buttons that I see are available.  I have my doubts about this but thought I would ask.  Maybe the ISY could assist in this with sub-routines.

I think you mean continue using them, where pressing one of the levitons would perform brighten dim?

Maybe, 2 possibilities

• #1 - Some Insteon switches retain their ability to be programmed by x10. I used this when migrating to insteon from x10, many insteon switches support both. The ISY doesn't program this, you'd have to read the directions with the individual switches and try it. In this mode, the Insteon responders would respond directly to x10 commands from the levitons.
• Look at page 10 of this manual. Smarthome does not put it in their newer manuals, but allude to this still working
• (You do not want to use the switch manual for programming insteon, the ISY Admin Console Linking Module does that)
   
• #2 - Intercept the leviton x10 dim/brighten commands with an ISY program, and issue scene brighten/dim commands with the same ISY program
• The only way I know how to do it is one program for each for brighten scenario, and one for dim scenario (leviton switch)
• This method involves a message into the ISY from x10 and out to insteon, meaning there will be a more noticeable delay between press and lamp response

Both of these methods require a little bench experimentation to see how they work

Paul

[paulbates]

13 minutes ago, redridge said:

Very cool.  I'm usually hung up on symmetry to a fault but that looks great!  I am long past that stage now but I can see how the legalization of pot could help HA.  You could literally sit around and dream up ideas (waste time) for programming.  Thanks for taking the time to snap some photos and explain the rational.

When I first put the levitons in, I thought about how the functions should be split between the switches to make it the most functional / intuitive to the family. The levitons were a little challenging in that they do 4 x10 addresses in row, and I had to go back and reassign lamp modules and attic fan to match that order and be functional. Hadn't thought about pot, which is legal now here in Michigan as of this year ?

Paul

[redridge]

I should apologize.  What I meant was can I configure the new Keypadlinc's to function like the X-10 transmitters did, with separate dim and bright buttons that would function with manually preselected lights.

Yeah the 4-in-a-row addresses were challenging.  I remember being able to fool the restrictions addressing LED's, etc, by sending a string such as D3-D16-ON to turn on D3, (D16 being non-existent) and still being able to trigger logic in the controller when D3 is manually pressed.

[paulbates]

 

19 minutes ago, redridge said:

I should apologize.  What I meant was can I configure the new Keypadlinc's to function like the X-10 transmitters did, with separate dim and bright buttons that would function with manually preselected lights.

Yeah the 4-in-a-row addresses were challenging.  I remember being able to fool the restrictions addressing LED's, etc, by sending a string such as D3-D16-ON to turn on D3, (D16 being non-existent) and still being able to trigger logic in the controller when D3 is manually pressed.

 

Got it. You could follow method #2, and capture the insteon brighten dim commands from the switch with 2 programs (1 brighten, 1 dim), there would still be delays.

You may want to consider getting your family used to Insteon dimming, which is:

• "press and hold" to brighten....  then release when at the right level
• Then "press and hold" again to dim.

That single keypad button will work across all linked responders (eg lamps) and its pretty fast. Its how all insteon works, so it will save you a lot of programming headaches and potential complaints about delays between pressing and dimming.

Paul 

[redridge]

You're right of course no sense in bogging down the ISY.  I wish Insteon would release a modular keypad transmitter module with interchangeable button arrays just like our old X-10's though.  That would be a dream for new construction with no confusion for the electricians, just run the damn wires down to the basement and daisy chain (power up) the switch locations (to a degree).  The din rail modules with their hard wired trigger inputs could process the additional logic available down there from all sorts of integration going on.  I would use small industrial PLC's to process sensor occupation to very quickly determine what direction folks are walking, etc, etc.  It's kind of frustrating that this last vital thing in Insteon is not available.  Here is my very elegant simple single button transmitter in the guest bath/powder room.  Simple non-confusing on/off button.

[paulbates]

Gotcha. Actually, if you search around the forums, there have been some creative adoptions of the faceplate. It's been a few years, but I saw a picture / writer up of a keypad with 4 long buttons on it. Not exactly what you're talking about, but another way to do things. I have a couple bathrooms where I want a 2 switch keypad... lights and fan

Paul

[redridge]

On 2/3/2019 at 2:35 PM, paulbates said:

 

This is at the top of the stairwell. On/off is for the stairwell lights.

Paul

 

Paul.  Hope your'e still around. Home Depot had the 6 button keypadlinc relay versions for $37 so I bought a 10 pack.  When they arrived I was horrified to read in the instructions that the top and button large buttons are locked in symbiosis and cannot be set to toggle mode, yet I see in your photo that both of the buttons are illuminated.

1.  Is it because yours is a dimmer version and has more flexibility?

I connected power to one of them and saw that the top "ON" button controls the internal relay and illuminates the LED for that button, vice versa for the lower button with it shutting off the upper button LED.  I also had ordered a large lot of custom etched buttons thinking I could assign those top and bottom buttons to do other functions or at least control external scenes since I am not using the internal relays.  Also I thought those large buttons could do dimming functions for assigned external loads.

2. How do I decouple the link between the upper and lower buttons?  I get it (some what) that the top button, as you mentioned is keyed to the internal device, but thought that beyond that I had near total flexibility in how I could label and program those buttons.  I want to label those bottom buttons for scenes, and had planned on having that be the position for the primary vent Fan buttons, with "latch" and "timer" buttons just above them.

 

[paulbates]

24 minutes ago, redridge said:

Paul.  Hope your'e still around. Home Depot had the 6 button keypadlinc relay versions for $37 so I bought a 10 pack.  When they arrived I was horrified to read in the instructions that the top and button large buttons are locked in symbiosis and cannot be set to toggle mode, yet I see in your photo that both of the buttons are illuminated.

1.  Is it because yours is a dimmer version and has more flexibility?

I connected power to one of them and saw that the top "ON" button controls the internal relay and illuminates the LED for that button, vice versa for the lower button with it shutting off the upper button LED.  I also had ordered a large lot of custom etched buttons thinking I could assign those top and bottom buttons to do other functions or at least control external scenes since I am not using the internal relays.  Also I thought those large buttons could do dimming functions for assigned external loads.

2. How do I decouple the link between the upper and lower buttons?  I get it (some what) that the top button, as you mentioned is keyed to the internal device, but thought that beyond that I had near total flexibility in how I could label and program those buttons.  I want to label those bottom buttons for scenes, and had planned on having that be the position for the primary vent Fan buttons, with "latch" and "timer" buttons just above them.

 

Actually that's an optical side effect of dark wall paint and how the picture was taken. They're not independent in my set up. 

However, while it was a few years ago, I've seen pictures on the forum where the 6 button keypad is reprogrammed to 8 button mode, but the long single button(s) kept in place. That would take a little lab work to try it out. Here's directions on how to switch a 6 button keypad (what you have) to an 8 button.

Paul

 

[redridge]

Gotcha I was wondering about if that would work as a friend suggested buying some 8 key bezels and converting them.

 

Can I ask you about the dimming question?  If you turn on a light with the top button, is it the top button that you subsequently use for both increasing and decreasing the dim levels, and the bottom button is simply (and only) for off?  Also could the bottom button be linked to an external all-off scene in the house since it would sort of go along with that?  Does the bottom button LED need to be on all the time when the internal relay (or dimmer) is off?

I can't believe after all these years and revisions that they are still limited in what you can do with them, not to mention (again) that there is no keypad-only version that would solve all these related problems. 

[paulbates]

58 minutes ago, redridge said:

 If you turn on a light with the top button, is it the top button that you subsequently use for both increasing and decreasing the dim levels, and the bottom button is simply (and only) for off?

Great question! All my years with Insteon, had not tried that scenario, but just did on the switch in the picture. The news is that the top one "brightens" only, and the bottom one "dims" only. Kindof awkward that they both don't behave like a small button and alternately dim and brighten.

Here's what I mean: Lights are on, I want to dim. I "press and hold" the off button. The light starts dimming.. but... the 6 button keypad indicates off. In the case of the one in the picture... its an on/off that remotely controls another switch via scene... there is a solid "click" from the relay when I start dimming, but the lights are still on... dimmed. The actual switchlinc at the bottom of the stairwell that controls the load shows on and dimmed via a couple of the LEDs on its side being on. 

Changing the keypad to an 8 key but keeping the long buttons could get around that
 

1 hour ago, redridge said:

Also could the bottom button be linked to an external all-off scene in the house since it would sort of go along with that?  

That's part of the answer above. For insteon, n-way linked scene control is "in there" by design. You should be able to link a scene, and have the scene value be "off" when you turn it on.

I've tried that, but over time made this one of the few cases in lighting control where I run an ISY program.. vs leaving it all to the insteon network to handle. The "good night" button you see in my picture you posted above is an example. The ISY program "beeps" a couple of other keypads to alert everyone its about to happen. Then I have the program "set scene goodnight off".  Not sure if this answers what you were asking, but I think so.

 

1 hour ago, redridge said:

Does the bottom button LED need to be on all the time when the internal relay (or dimmer) is off?

If its in 6 button mode, yes. If you did the swap to 8, but kept the wide buttons across the bottom... no. Again, there may be other side effects there, I would try this out on a bench / lab to see how it behaves

 

Paul

[redridge]

I didn't have an 8 button bezel handy yet but I was able to depress the A and H buttons with small tools and depress the set button to get it to convert.  One glaring side effect is that you can still activate the [A or B] and [G or H] when depressing the wide buttons, and only the corresponding LED lights and it's 1/2 portion of the wide button. So it's an odd predicament having to "aim" your finger or press each side (two presses) to get full illumination.  

Giving your experience with the Insteon how easy would it be to set up the adjacent buttons to respond to each other and illuminate the other side of the button (without involving the ISY)?  Or would it just create an endless program loop? Also curious how the bright/dim would work with this situation.  

The rest of my order is showing up Tuesday (Home Depot and Smarthome) so I can fool around with this stuff and come to a solution.  Worse case I'll just have to rethink it.  I have way more buttons then before so it's no tragedy.

[mwester]

It's a pain in the posterior, but not difficult, to set up all the scenes necessary to ensure that the A and B buttons (and all other "doubled" buttons) on an 8-button KPL are correctly synced.  I have several of these set up in this fashion -- for example the main Kitchen KPL has four doubled-up buttons handling four scenes.  Dimming works as you'd expect -- hold the button in to dim up, release, and hold in to dim down.  That works regardless of which side you press -- and buttons light up as you'd expect as well.

The only drawback is that if you double up the center buttons (C & D, and E & F), you can place a double-wide face plate over them, but because of the way the button frame is built there'll be a dark vertical line between C& D and between E & F that doesn't exist between A & B or G & H.

I've been working on a project to create a 3D printable faceplate for the KPL that would replace everything (frame, buttons, etc) -- that's been slowed down since the "acceptance-factor" of the current solution, despite the vertical dark bar, is just fine.  Another consideration is filament color -- white is easy, but I'd want light almond, and finding a semi-flex (TPU) filament in that color hasn't been successful so far.

[lilyoyo1]

On 2/24/2019 at 7:18 PM, redridge said:

I didn't have an 8 button bezel handy yet but I was able to depress the A and H buttons with small tools and depress the set button to get it to convert.  One glaring side effect is that you can still activate the [A or B] and [G or H] when depressing the wide buttons, and only the corresponding LED lights and it's 1/2 portion of the wide button. So it's an odd predicament having to "aim" your finger or press each side (two presses) to get full illumination.  

Giving your experience with the Insteon how easy would it be to set up the adjacent buttons to respond to each other and illuminate the other side of the button (without involving the ISY)?  Or would it just create an endless program loop? Also curious how the bright/dim would work with this situation.  

The rest of my order is showing up Tuesday (Home Depot and Smarthome) so I can fool around with this stuff and come to a solution.  Worse case I'll just have to rethink it.  I have way more buttons then before so it's no tragedy.

To get your buttons in sync regardless of which is pushed simply create a scene with both buttons in it as a controller

[redridge]

I think I have done that.  I pressed a button on the keypadlinc, then depressed it's set button until the beep.  I then depressed the set button on the device I am testing (an Insteon outdoor outlet) to make it a responder and hear the beep.  I did that for both buttons side by side and they both now control the device but are completely independent and will not track/indicate the device's status unless they themselves are pressed.  What do I do next, do I need to make the buttons responders also?  And if so do I need to use a 2nd keypad to accomplish that?

Just to restate my goal here I am trying to use a six button keypad in 8 button mode to fully light up the large button when either side of it is pressed first, and issue the same command when either side is pressed first.

BTW I am still a total Insteon beginner and have my first shipment of keypads and dimmers, relays, fanlincs, etc. to swap out for my X10 wall transmitters and load controllers.

[redridge]

On 2/27/2019 at 6:44 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

To get your buttons in sync regardless of which is pushed simply create a scene with both buttons in it as a controller

see above. sorry

[lilyoyo1]

Since I'm not sure what all you've done, I recommend removing the kpl from your Isy and factory resetting it. Once reset, put it in 8 button mode and re-add it to your Isy. 

Once added to the isy you would simply add all devices into the scene as a controller. This way when you push (for example) A button, the B button will light up and the device you want to control will turn on. When you turn on/off the device itself, it will turn on/off the A & B button as well. 

[redridge]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Since I'm not sure what all you've done, I recommend removing the kpl from your Isy and factory resetting it. Once reset, put it in 8 button mode and re-add it to your Isy. 

Once added to the isy you would simply add all devices into the scene as a controller. This way when you push (for example) A button, the B button will light up and the device you want to control will turn on. When you turn on/off the device itself, it will turn on/off the A & B button as well. 

Thanks stumbled through that and got it to work.  It did not resort to 6 button mode it thinks it's an 8 button now.  So the scene is not reliant on the ISY going forward right?  I was trying to do this from the keypadlinc owners manual with the ISY PLM unplugged, but the ISY assists and programs the devices internally to respond on there own subsequently?

This is great news as I can now use the buttons the way I had them etched, with the wide bottom buttons now able to do their own thing.  It's almost embarrassing starting over like this!

[paulbates]

5 minutes ago, redridge said:

So the scene is not reliant on the ISY going forward right?  

One of the ISY's job is Insteon Network Manager. When you create scenes under the linking menu, you are actually programming insteon devices on your network. I have a number of virtual electric circuits this way. The ISY and PLM can be unplugged, and the insteon scenes will continue to function. Scenes are direct device to device (even if the device is itself, other keys in a keypad)

Paul

[redridge]

3 minutes ago, paulbates said:

 I have a number of virtual electric circuits this way. The ISY and PLM can be unplugged, and the insteon scenes will continue to function.

This is fabulous of course, like being a kid in a candy store!  And maybe I don't have to endure all the versions that I know have been out there all these years.  Please explain what you mean by "virtual electric circuits".  I know I have to do that quite often in programming alarm systems for sensors to function differently in disarmed vs armed states, which requires some virtual relays and shunts, etc.

[paulbates]

Its when you have devices on different circuits that you want to behave as if they are wired on one circuit. Or you have a subset of devices on one circuit that you want to control together. Turn a switch, and a set of lights/lamps on different circuits behaves as one.

I have a number of both. My house had 2 different construction phases with separate wiring that show up in the same room. You'd never guess it looking at the room. But to get things to work, you have to put insteon inlinelincs or micro modules at different locations to get the lighting to work in unison. I have 2 different sets of pendent lights that I want to work together.. maybe 4 feet apart. There's a gigantic steel beam between them. I put inline lincs on each side, and both come on / go off togther

Paul

[lilyoyo1]

54 minutes ago, redridge said:

Thanks stumbled through that and got it to work.  It did not resort to 6 button mode it thinks it's an 8 button now.  So the scene is not reliant on the ISY going forward right?  I was trying to do this from the keypadlinc owners manual with the ISY PLM unplugged, but the ISY assists and programs the devices internally to respond on there own subsequently?

This is great news as I can now use the buttons the way I had them etched, with the wide bottom buttons now able to do their own thing.  It's almost embarrassing starting over like this!

As already pointed out the isy is an insteon manager. I would like to add make sure all scenes are created with the isy to ensure everything works as expected since the isy will not recognize links it did not make. 

[redridge]

2 hours ago, paulbates said:

Its when you have devices on different circuits that you want to behave as if they are wired on one circuit. Or you have a subset of devices on one circuit that you want to control together. Turn a switch, and a set of lights/lamps on different circuits behaves as one.

I have a number of both. My house had 2 different construction phases with separate wiring that show up in the same room. You'd never guess it looking at the room. But to get things to work, you have to put insteon inlinelincs or micro modules at different locations to get the lighting to work in unison. I have 2 different sets of pendent lights that I want to work together.. maybe 4 feet apart. There's a gigantic steel beam between them. I put inline lincs on each side, and both come on / go off togther

Paul

One thing I just noticed, when I go back to that top wide button to dim down the scene linked dimmer, the LED in the keyed upper left corner position still follows the internal relay (not used) and shuts off.  So I have a light in the room that has dimmed down, still on, but only 1/2 of the button is left illuminated (since I can hear the relay clicking off inside while I am dimming the light).

Can I get away with turning the keypad upside down, changing the button orientation so they're upright?  That way the lower button, which in a lot of cases will be controlling a fan will not be subjected to this dimming situation.  The relay keypadlincs are 1/2 price at Home Depot so I stuck myself with quite a few on them.

[paulbates]

That should work. You can unscrew the key frame and flip it around, leave the keys in. 

[redridge]

Ha!  I wonder how many times I would have flipped the individual buttons!  Thanks for that!