Beta PLM availability & X10 reliability

[yardman 49]

Hello Michel K and the UD staff:

 

I am ready to go ahead and order my ISY-26. My only reservation right now is the PLM. I have about 30 Insteon devices and several X10 devices in my system. Of the Insteon devices, 5 of them are KeyPadLincs, with multiples scenes and many linked devices.

I'm worried that I may hit the 417 link limit in the current PLM, which is what is holding me back from ordering right now.

 

Is is possible for me to order the ISY-26 with a beta-version of the rumored "1k link" PLM? If so, how would I go about doing that?

 

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On another note: I am not too worried right now about the ISY receiving X10 commands reliably. But being able to reliably send X10 commands is a must have for me, due to various X10 timed events that I use. I have a Smarthome 4826A Signalinc Repeater and a couple of BoosterLincs in my network, as well as FilterLincs as needed, so my X10 reliability from my KPLs and switches is good. So as long as the ISY/PLM can send a good signal, it should get propagated and received. But please see below for more on this.

 

 

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For what it's worth, I've seen some strange phenomena on the Smarthome PLC (yes, not the PLM) that I currently use with their "Essential Timer" software. I share this in case it provides any insight for you on the PLM problems that users may be experiencing. Granted, I don't know how similar the PLC is to the PLM.

 

1) When my downloaded "Essential Timer" timers run from the PLC, if one works, they all work. There is an occasional failure scenario where once in a while, none of my timers will fire. To fix this, all I have to do is re-download the timers, and everything is happy. Maybe once every month or two. In this scenario, it seems as though the downloaded timed events just get locked up, and re-downloading them fixes it.

 

2) Except the occasional problem #1 above, the X10 timers run reliably from the PLC. But if I manually trigger an X10 device from the PLC (through the Essential Timer software), I have to use repeated tries to get the device to turn on or off. (On the other hand, I can manually trigger the same device through the same PLC using SmartHome's "Houselinc" software, and the device will fire reliably). I've moved the PLC to various outlets, but the result is always the same.

 

So apparently, however Essential Timer and the PLC handle X10 commands, they do it differently when the commands come as a timed event from within the PLC versus a direct control command from the ET software via a computer through the PLC.

 

I've never understood this. When my network was more simple, I don't remember seeing this. It happened as I added more Insteon devices. But it's just weird that downloaded timers work, but direct X10 doesn't in Essential Timer. Again, HouseLinc seems to work just fine at direct X10 control. The various Insteon KPL buttons and ToggleLincs that I use for X10 control also seem to control and respond reliably at the first push. It's only the Essential Timer software direct control that does this.

 

I only shared this in as much as I was wondering if this related to the X10 failures that you are seeing with the PLM. Could there be some timing problem with the PLM between incoming and outgoing signals that is exacerbated by line noise?

 

 

Anway, thanks much and best wishes to you and the UD staff.

[sloop]

you can estimate the number of links - michel sent me this

 

device links

 

Every KPL counts as either 5 or 8 depending on the configuration (6 or 8 button)

Every ControLinc counts as 5

Every RemoteLinc counts as 6

All controllers (SwitchLinc, ToggleLinc, …) count as 2

All responder types (InlineLinc, LampLinc, ….) count as 1

 

scenes

 

Each member of the scene counts as 1

 

i hit 483 before i converted my plm to a brick

 

i have 60 devices (well - 5 or so are not working so they are not in the plm) - i think about 24 are keypads - and i have a crazy number of scenes and participants in each scene

 

i called support today - they said 417 is the limit for everything insteon(?)

[Mark Sanctuary]

I am going to leave most your questions up to Michel to answer, but I do want to tell you I have fiddled with most everything you mention (X10, PLC timer programs, houselinc, etc) and the ISY is night and day from what you have used before. The learning curve on the ISY is somewhat steep mostly because the documentation has not caught up with development but the ISY is well worth it. You will not want to go back to anything else after you get an ISY.

 

I suggest you ask Michel for the latest ISY firmware beta if the beta program is still running by the time you get your ISY because the scheduling and triggering is vastly improved in it.

 

I would not worry about PLM space for your setup, unless you’re crazy with scenes, and I mean crazy with them, you won't run into a problem with the current PLM.

[sloop]

the isy generated topology of my setup is here

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/respkm62/topology/

 

but you have to click the 'title page' on the left to see it

[Michel Kohanim]

sloop and Mark,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback. Appreciate it.

 

Frank

 

I am sure you will find ISY to your satisfaction.

 

Here are my comments:

 

Hello Michel K and the UD staff:

... I'm worried that I may hit the 417 link limit in the current PLM, which is what is holding me back from ordering right now.

 

Is is possible for me to order the ISY-26 with a beta-version of the rumored "1k link" PLM? If so, how would I go about doing that?

 

You can calculate the number links based on the algorithm that sloop graciously provided. Using that algorithm, if all your devices are KPLs, and if all of them are configured as 8 buttons, then you will surely run out of links immediately:

8 x 30 = 240 buttons

2 links per button = 2 x 240 = 480 !

 

Otherwise, I don't think you are going to run out of links. Please also take a look at sloop's topology and try to extrapolate.

 

You can use the Beta PLM but you would either have to call them directly and "agree with their Beta program" or I would have to do it for you. In either case, though, if you purchase ISY from SmartHome, it would be very difficult to ask for the Beta PLM. When you are ready, please send me an email (tech@universal-devices.com) and I'll do my best to get it to you.

 

One thing to consider though: this is really a Beta PLM; as sloop can attest to, it might not work!

 

Thank you for the detailed information on your experiences with X10/Essential Timer/PLC.

 

We have not had much experience/exposure to Essential Timer and thus I cannot make any intelligent comments. I leave that for the more knowledgeable users on the forum. Or, if you wish, you can pose your question to our INSTEON Only forum where someone from SmartHome will surely answer your question.

 

Now, as far as sending X10 commands reliably, we do depend on the PLM for communications. We have witnessed as well as corroborated the following scenarios with X10/PLM combination:

1. Sometimes the PLM just gets tired of responding to X10 messages and starts ignoring them ... reboot does not help this situation; you just have to wait it out!

2. Although all our communications to PLM are "timed" perfectly, but it's been known that the PLM might "discard" X10 messages if they are sent within 2 seconds of each other. ISY prevents this from happening (we cover it up) but, ultimately, it's up to the PLM to transfer the command

 

In summary, since there are too many variables to consider when it comes to X10, and since we do offer a 30 day money back guarantee, may I humbly suggest giving ISY a try with your scenarios and make sure it meets your requirements?

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

[Mark Sanctuary]

Hey Michel,

Do you think you might be able to create a webpage on the UDI site with a java calculator for the PLM link count question. I think many future users would find it useful for determining their setup size for the ISY.

 

Concept

 

Number of 6 button KeypadLincs: [_____]

Number of 8 button KeypadLincs: [_____]

Number of ControLincs: [_____]

Number of RemoteLincs: [_____]

Number of Controller-Responder Devices: [_____]

Number of Responder Devices: [_____]

Number of Scenes you want to create: [_____]

 

Total links needed will be approximately: [ ### ]

[yardman 49]

Thanks Sloop, Mark, Michel.

 

It would seem that the the current PLM should work for me. I will only have 5 KPLs (8 button), 2 Controlincs, and 2 RemoteLincs for my multibutton devices. Most of the rest are ToggleLincs, with a few LampLincs thrown it. And then some x10 controlled lights, lamp modules and appliance modules.

 

I'll let you know how it all works out.

 

 

 

 

Thanks again

[sloop]

i had no luck with the theoretiacl plm that does not exist - but the problem was not the increased link limit, it was the same problem that all plms have: they go on strike when called on to work too much

 

i never was happy with the label that was attached to the microswitch nonexistent problem in the dimmers - 'paddle problem' - i mean - yuck

 

so i have decided to label the nonexistent plm sleepy time problem - just have not decided what it should be - plm snooze is a possibility

 

i do have the label picked out for the plm conversion phenomena when you hit 483 links: bricklinc

[MikeB]

I'd also love to see a counter in the ISY-26 so us current ISY-26 users know where we stand.

 

Thanks!

[yardman 49]

I just thought of something else:

I suppose that ideally I would want to get the PLM with the latest firmware update when I order the ISY-26 (Rev. 2.4, Firmware 52 ??).

 

Do I need to place my ISY order directly with UD to be able to be assured of getting a PLM with the latest firmware, or can I order the ISY through SmartHome and still be assured of getting the latest version??

 

Thanks again

[C Martin]

My experiences with Universal Devices......for what it's worth!

I purchased the package from UD and I don't regret it for a moment. Their support has been phenominal. I can't say the same for other Insteon Product manufacturers (who I won't name at this time). My philisophy is this: "Their product revolves around the PLM and the ISY working together, so I think support issues with the PLM are best served by them". I realize that the PLM is a Smart Home or Insteon Device and they are ultimately resposible for support. I also believe that the greater number of users of the ISY technology gives UD tremendous leverage in getting Insteon to keep the PLM technology where it belongs.

Since I bought my PLM from UD, Smart Home would not upgrade my PLM -since they have no record of my purchase - and I understand fully.

I just checked with Smart Home's Tech support people yesterday and finally convinced them that they actually had an upgraded PLM with version 5.??

They do have the newer version of the PLM's in stock.

Good Luck.

[Mark Sanctuary]

I think that thru either source works; Michel helps people deal with Smarthome if they don't cooperate. Otherwise Michel and team are glad to switch out PLMs for firmware that you bought direct from them. UDI really wants to see this product become successful; it is the right form factor to be the majority controller for home Insteon setups in my own opinion.

 

Either way Smarthome gets the outdated ones back and reflashes them with new firmware to send back out again...recycling. I talked with one of the guys in length over at Smarthome and they built the Insteon family of products boards, cases, frames, etc all the same so they could recycle them in any number of ways. Parts is parts.

[Michel Kohanim]

C Martin and Mark, thank you!

 

Frank,

UDI will take care of you either way. The choice is yours.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I just thought of something else:

I suppose that ideally I would want to get the PLM with the latest firmware update when I order the ISY-26 (Rev. 2.4, Firmware 52 ??).

 

Do I need to place my ISY order directly with UD to be able to be assured of getting a PLM with the latest firmware, or can I order the ISY through SmartHome and still be assured of getting the latest version??

 

Thanks again