Scene button trigger a program?

[redridge]

Hi folks.  Really enjoying this so far.  I have skipped over some parts so I can keep installing.  I have converted 6 button keypads to think they are 8 button to free up the wide buttons for separate purposes.  In the administration window I see no obvious linkage to select a program to run or variable to change state from a scene button.  I do see I can trigger a scene or flag from a load status however.  Is there a way to create an alias, phantom, dummy load from a scene button so I can start a program running from it's status?

I hate to think I need to hide a light bulb in a closet just so I can trigger a program.  I know this is simple but can't seem to find its solution quickly while programming the buttons for the install.

The two buttons under the wide buttons need to both be assigned to the same scene for the whole button to light up.

[lilyoyo1]

What are you trying to accomplish? Using status or control of any button will allow you to trigger a program.

[redridge]

In this case I want this wide button to be on (which has to be double assigned as a scene to light both LED's below it) when any one of the smaller Fanlinc  buttons above it are on (low, med, high).  I want that bottom wide button to start the fan in the last mode it was in, or shut the fan off.  The program would set a variable storing the last speed used.  To start or stop the fan I don't want to have to search the small buttons with my old person eyes unless I want to actually change speeds.

"Shirley" this can be done with scene assignments and help from the ISY right?

I want to have global control of all the ceiling fans in the same manner from a couple of places.  I gotta do something with all these buttons right?

[mwester]

Are you wanting someone to write the programs for you?  I'm not understanding what you're looking for, I'm afraid.

[palayman]

8 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

What are you trying to accomplish? Using status or control of any button will allow you to trigger a program.

I think his problem, at least the original one, is that he wants to include the bottom (OFF) button of a 6 button dimmer in a scene without including the top button (ON) in the same scene.

They can't be used that way, so now I think he has reprogrammed it to be a 8 button in hopes that he can use half of the bottom button in the scene he wants to turn off.

@redridge  correct me if I'm wrong.

[redridge]

Thanks for joining the discourse!  No, I do not want to use half of the button for anything, and I think that is the gist of it so far.  I think I have a unique problem by rewiring my house, stripped the rooms down to the studs and installed a bunch of 2 button decora transmitters fed from a single 14/2 with ground with centralized all my relays and dimmers.  Now I have all these boxes and all these buttons!  The 6 buttons are much more attractive but I hate the top and bottom buttons being handcuffed to each other!

I have no problem now with activating a toggled scene from a top wide button, and a different toggled scene from the bottom wide button.  Both the top and bottom wide buttons present full LED illumination and full illumination-off in both states.  I just want to know how to fire a program the I WILL WRITE.  I see that once I have triggered a program from a scene button that all the available fanlinc outputs are in the admin logic, and even the scenes themselves appear.  They just don't appear in the options in the beginning for when a scene button is pressed.

 

Actually a phantom load is all I need.  Maybe I just need to put a silent micro dimmer in a box somewhere and let it turn on and off!

 

[palayman]

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you want either.

BTW Programming info can be found here: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Programs

This section might help https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Creating_a_KeypadLinc_LED_Follow_Program

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, redridge said:

Thanks for joining the discourse!  No, I do not want to use half of the button for anything, and I think that is the gist of it so far.  I think I have a unique problem by rewiring my house, stripped the rooms down to the studs and installed a bunch of 2 button decora transmitters fed from a single 14/2 with ground with centralized all my relays and dimmers.  Now I have all these boxes and all these buttons!  The 6 buttons are much more attractive but I hate the top and bottom buttons being handcuffed to each other!

I have no problem now with activating a toggled scene from a top wide button, and a different toggled scene from the bottom wide button.  Both the top and bottom wide buttons present full LED illumination and full illumination-off in both states.  I just want to know how to fire a program the I WILL WRITE.  I see that once I have triggered a program from a scene button that all the available fanlinc outputs are in the admin logic, and even the scenes themselves appear.  They just don't appear in the options in the beginning for when a scene button is pressed.

 

Actually a phantom load is all I need.  Maybe I just need to put a silent micro dimmer in a box somewhere and let it turn on and off!

 

I'm lost now too as what you described in your previous post is different than what you are explaining now. I got the same impression about what you were trying to accomplish that everyone else did(regardless of who writes it). 

I'll be stopping of here since it seems you've figured out what you want. In closing, when it comes to triggering programs, the short answer is yes. You can trigger programs based on control (physically turning a device on/off) or based on it's status (based on the device state). 

You would simply write if status or control is on/off then run whatever program

[redridge]

I started this post basically because I can't right click on a program and see the "add to scene", but I guess then you'd have to see the "run if", "run then" or "run else" after that.

I am obviously missing something having never used the ISY for scenes since my X10 scenes were always controlled by programs. And I don't know how I could describe what I am trying to do any more precisely. I don't see any great difficulty in the programming for this.  Having had my ISY for a couple of years but being new to Insteon I need to figure out what you mean by "status or control" and then I am probably on my way.  Thank you.   

[kclenden]

9 hours ago, redridge said:

In this case I want this wide button to be on (which has to be double assigned as a scene to light both LED's below it) when any one of the smaller Fanlinc  buttons above it are on (low, med, high).  I want that bottom wide button to start the fan in the last mode it was in, or shut the fan off.  The program would set a variable storing the last speed used.  To start or stop the fan I don't want to have to search the small buttons with my old person eyes unless I want to actually change speeds.

Let me say this in another way and see if I've got it right:

• You want the top two buttons (A & B ) to act as one.  You want them to light up when the fan is on, no matter what speed, and shut off when the fan is off.
• You want 3 of the middle 4 buttons (C, D, E & F) to function to set the speed of the fan (High, Medium & Low).
• You want the bottom two buttons (G & H) to act as one.  If the fan is OFF when either of those two buttons is pressed, you want the fan to turn ON at the speed it was when it was last turned off.  If the fan is ON when either of those two buttons is pressed, you want to save the fan speed and then shut OFF the fan.

If I have that right, then a couple more questions:

• Do you want anything to happen if either of the top two buttons (A & B ) is pressed?
• When the middle buttons (C, D, E, & F) are pressed to set the fan speed, do you want them to light up?
• Do you want to bottom two buttons (G & H) to ever light up?

 

[larryllix]

17 minutes ago, redridge said:

I started this post basically because I can't right click on a program and see the "add to scene", but I guess then you'd have to see the "run if", "run then" or "run else" after that.

I am obviously missing something having never used the ISY for scenes since my X10 scenes were always controlled by programs. And I don't know how I could describe what I am trying to do any more precisely. I don't see any great difficulty in the programming for this.  Having had my ISY for a couple of years but being new to Insteon I need to figure out what you mean by "status or control" and then I am probably on my way.  Thank you.   

Insteon scenes are direct Insteon links between devices. These can be set up without any ISY (not recommended) or using ISY as a link/scene manager. X10 devices did not have scenes of this type.

Scenes are like a line up of soldiers given a number and a set of instructions. Now when the Sargent calls out a number, every soldier with that number goes through some pre-planned routine, jumping up and down and some do pushups or jumping jacks. When a different number is called some of the same and some different soldiers do another routine that was told to them beforehand.
Insteon devices can be preset with some 250 different links that contain a number for ID, a dimming level, and a ramp speed. Any Insteon device can call these Scenes number out and all that contain that number do their preset routines. ISY can also issue these scene commands from programs.

Scenes do not contain programs. In the admin console you can add devices to your scenes by dragging and dropping those devices into the scenes at the bottom of the device tree.

[redridge]

2 hours ago, kclenden said:

Let me say this in another way and see if I've got it right:

• You want the top two buttons (A & B ) to act as one.  You want them to light up when the fan is on, no matter what speed, and shut off when the fan is off.
• You want 3 of the middle 4 buttons (C, D, E & F) to function to set the speed of the fan (High, Medium & Low).
• You want the bottom two buttons (G & H) to act as one.  If the fan is OFF when either of those two buttons is pressed, you want the fan to turn ON at the speed it was when it was last turned off.  If the fan is ON when either of those two buttons is pressed, you want to save the fan speed and then shut OFF the fan.

If I have that right, then a couple more questions:

• Do you want anything to happen if either of the top two buttons (A & B ) is pressed?
• When the middle buttons (C, D, E, & F) are pressed to set the fan speed, do you want them to light up?
• Do you want to bottom two buttons (G & H) to ever light up?

 

This is part of a three gang in my master bedroom.  Against my better judgement I am going to attach a photo.  The top three wide buttons are unlabeled and control a soffit up-light and two reading down-lights in that same soffit above the bed and they work perfectly.  The 3 bottom buttons are for fans and scenes and I will try to use this format throughout the rest of the house.

I want to tap the bottom wide button as a master on/off toggle for the fan and have it fully light up in the on state.  The fan will always come up in it's last speed state (something I loved about my PCS X10 dimmers), unless I change one of the three speed buttons.  There is no small button for off.  The appropriate speed button will illuminate also at that time and follow the on/off state of the bottom wide button.

 

As a subtext since I have that picture there now.  My other fans in the house are showing.  They would only come up in their last speed if tapped from the master bedroom,  And I have placed an all-on and all-off nestled in that fan button array.  It's something we always do on hot days before we need air conditioning and this way we won't have to run around the house doing it.

[mwester]

A scene is a thing that involves only the Insteon devices that are in the scene -- once a scene is defined and written to the Insteon devices, the ISY can be turned off and the scene will continue to work  In other words, the ISY is not involved in making scenes work -- and for that reason, there is no direct way for the ISY to trigger a program from the turning on or off of a scene (although of course a program in ISY can certainly turn on or off a scene, which is a very useful thing).

Instead, first define your scenes so that you get your double buttons working as you expect.  Then define your programs -- the key part is that the trigger for the programs cannot be scene, so it instead must be the buttons themselves.  If you have the keypad set up as 8-buttons but are using double-wide buttons, that implies you'll need to use an "or" statement in the if to include both buttons, and trigger on either one of them being turned on (or off, as the case may be).

[redridge]

1 hour ago, mwester said:

A scene is a thing that involves only the Insteon devices that are in the scene -- once a scene is defined and written to the Insteon devices, the ISY can be turned off and the scene will continue to work  In other words, the ISY is not involved in making scenes work -- and for that reason, there is no direct way for the ISY to trigger a program from the turning on or off of a scene (although of course a program in ISY can certainly turn on or off a scene, which is a very useful thing).

Instead, first define your scenes so that you get your double buttons working as you expect.  Then define your programs -- the key part is that the trigger for the programs cannot be scene, so it instead must be the buttons themselves.  If you have the keypad set up as 8-buttons but are using double-wide buttons, that implies you'll need to use an "or" statement in the if to include both buttons, and trigger on either one of them being turned on (or off, as the case may be).

Thank you mwester for drilling that in.  I love that about the ISY and Insteon devices, knew that, but did not put that entirely together like you laid it out.  I am disappointed about no aliases or dummy loads.  This could be part of the ISY right?  In Mac OSX we can use aliases and they are really handy.  Aliases for buttons are invaluable in programming remote controls.  Rather than always having to signify both positions under the wide buttons, which can be dual controller members of a scene in Insteon eeprom and trigger an Insteon device, it cannot apparently trigger a virtual device or affect a variable to use to carry on with my task.

Thanks for the hints and elevating my perspective.  By the way they are upside down in the photo simply because they are relay keypadlincs and if I used the upper pair to control lights directly the "A" LED always shuts off and follows the relay when I try to dim the light!

[redridge]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Insteon scenes are direct Insteon links between devices. These can be set up without any ISY (not recommended) or using ISY as a link/scene manager. X10 devices did not have scenes of this type.

Scenes do not contain programs. In the admin console you can add devices to your scenes by dragging and dropping those devices into the scenes at the bottom of the device tree.

I think my PCS X10 relays and dimmers had some sort of eeprom programming in conjunction with their wall transmitters and extended code but the manual was so thick I just had my old Timecommander + run the scenes.  

Are you saying that once the ISY has composed and "burned" the scene to the respective members it no longer can recognize that scene trigger coming from a button controller of that scene?  It goes back to simply logging the state of the devices individually again?  I know it stores it so it can re-write it when needed but it can't recognize the scene's call sign anymore?  Seems odd to me.  Is this only so it's all perfect if the ISY is off or missing?

[larryllix]

28 minutes ago, redridge said:

I think my PCS X10 relays and dimmers had some sort of eeprom programming in conjunction with their wall transmitters and extended code but the manual was so thick I just had my old Timecommander + run the scenes.  

Are you saying that once the ISY has composed and "burned" the scene to the respective members it no longer can recognize that scene trigger coming from a button controller of that scene?  It goes back to simply logging the state of the devices individually again?  I know it stores it so it can re-write it when needed but it can't recognize the scene's call sign anymore?  Seems odd to me.  Is this only so it's all perfect if the ISY is off or missing?

X10 had house codes so you could use All On or All Off for that house code.

Not sure I understand the sentiment of the second paragraph.  ISY does not recognise scene commands. It can issue scene commands but only recognises the device commands.
If ISY would recognise a scene On command, what would it know?  ISY may have no idea what devices do with  scene command and scene commended devices do not report status back so ISY has no way of knowing what the device statuses are.

I avoid scene usage as much as possible. I use them where MS to lamp speed is desirable  and very large groups of devices that need to flashed where individual Insteon commands to so many devices would tie up the comm channel for too many seconds at a time.

[redridge]

8 minutes ago, larryllix said:

X10 had house codes so you could use All On or All Off for that house code.

Not sure I understand the sentiment of the second paragraph.  ISY does not recognise scene commands. It can issue scene commands but only recognises the device commands.
If ISY would recognise a scene On command, what would it know?  ISY may have no idea what devices do with  scene command and scene commended devices do not report status back so ISY has no way of knowing what the device statuses are.

I avoid scene usage as much as possible. I use them where MS to lamp speed is desirable  and very large groups of devices that need to flashed where individual Insteon commands to so many devices would tie up the comm channel for too many seconds at a time.

Wow.  House codes and All Off huh?  PCS was very advanced and evolved to the UPB protocol (way too expensive).  I just want the ISY to recognize the call sign for a scene so it's logic can react on it so it can trigger my program thats all.  I thinks its a missing link.

[kclenden]

1 hour ago, redridge said:

Are you saying that once the ISY has composed and "burned" the scene to the respective members it no longer can recognize that scene trigger coming from a button controller of that scene?  It goes back to simply logging the state of the devices individually again?  I know it stores it so it can re-write it when needed but it can't recognize the scene's call sign anymore?

Scenes are composed of CONTROLLERS and RESPONDERS.  Controllers trigger responders to do something predefined.  Another thing to note, is that controllers in a scene are automatically also responders.  Once the ISY has "burned" the scene into the respective members, it recognizes whenever a controller is activated.  So yes, the ISY can trigger your programs.  You just have to tell the ISY which controllers to monitor and what to do whenever it sees those controllers activated.  If there are more than one controller for a scene, then you will have to tell the ISY to monitor all of the controllers (i.e. you can't just tell it to monitor a scene).  This only becomes an issue if you later add another controller to a scene.  In that case you'll have to edit your program and tell it to monitor the new controller as well.  Likewise if you remove a controller from a scene.

[redridge]

24 minutes ago, kclenden said:

Scenes are composed of CONTROLLERS and RESPONDERS.  Controllers trigger responders to do something predefined.  Once the ISY has "burned" the scene into the respective members, it recognizes whenever a controller is activated.  So yes, the ISY can trigger your programs.  You just have to tell the ISY which controllers to monitor and what to do whenever it sees those controllers activated.  If there are more than one controller for a scene, then you will have to tell the ISY to monitor all of the controllers (i.e. you can't just tell it to monitor a scene).

I am beginning to think I need to go sit in the dunce chair in the corner of the room.  I have to create a scene and assign these two positions under the wide button as controller members in order to make it toggle on and off with the correct LED responses.  Thats step one.  Do I have to have a responder or can I trigger programs from its on and off states right there (and how)?  I don't need an actual physical responder at this point.  I can buy one that does nothing but change states but this what I am trying to avoid.  How do I query that internal relay or dimmer inside the keypad that I am not using?  Could it's change of state be what I need to start my program?  I keep asking about aliases, virtual responders, dummy loads.  In any event thanks for humoring me.

[kclenden]

3 hours ago, redridge said:

I want to tap the bottom wide button as a master on/off toggle for the fan and have it fully light up in the on state.  The fan will always come up in it's last speed state (something I loved about my PCS X10 dimmers), unless I change one of the three speed buttons.  There is no small button for off.  The appropriate speed button will illuminate also at that time and follow the on/off state of the bottom wide button.

Okay, you've defined what should happen with the bottom two buttons are pressed:

• If Button A or Button B (because switch is upside down) is tapped when off then turn ON buttons A & B and turn ON the appropriate speed button based on the fan's last speed, and turn the fan on at that speed
• If Button A or Button B is tapped when on, then save the current speed, turn OFF buttons A & B and turn OFF the appropriate speed button based on the fan's current speed (could just turn off all speed buttons), turn OFF the FAN

You didn't fully define what should happen when the fan speed buttons are pressed, so I'm going to make two assumption:

• If you tap a speed button when the fan is off that you want the fan to come on at that speed, instead of coming on at the last speed
• If you tap a speed button that is already illuminated, you want the fan to continue at that speed and not turn OFF

If those assumptions are correct, then the the following should cover the fan speed buttons:

• If Button D is tapped then turn ON Button D, turn OFF Buttons E & F, turn ON Buttons A & B, and set the fan to LOW speed
• If Button E is tapped then turn ON Button E, turn OFF Buttons D & F, turn ON Buttons A & B, and set the fan to MEDIUM speed
• if Button F is tapped then turn ON Button F, turn OFF Buttons D & E, turn ON Buttons A & B, and set the fan to HIGH speed

[kclenden]

7 minutes ago, redridge said:

I don't need an actual physical responder at this point.  I can buy one that does nothing but change states but this what I am trying to avoid.  How do I query that internal relay or dimmer inside the keypad that I am not using?  Could it's change of state be what I need to start my program?  I keep asking about aliases, virtual responders, dummy loads.  In any event thanks for humoring me.

The buttons themselves are responders.  Remember that controllers are also responders.  To control your fan, you'll need a FanLinc, but you don't actually need it right now to create the scenes and programs.

[kclenden]

First create a scene for the master bedroom fan, maybe call it "MB_Fan" or something meaningful to you.  Then drag the A button for your keypad to that scene.  Click the "Controller/Responder" button until is says to make the A button a controller and then click "Ok".  Then drag the B button to the scene.  Again click the "Controller/Responder" button to make the B button a controller and then click "Ok".

At this point whenever you click the A button, the B button should mirror the A button.  Likewise if you click the B button, the A button should mirror it.

 

[redridge]

OK so far Ive done that for everything (all my lights) that I have working just fine so far.  Until I came up against my self created fanlinc problem.  So at this point how do I query the on or off state of that wide button to start my program? 

[kclenden]

After you've created the scene above, create a program - let's call it "Master Bedroom Fan Button On"  Select "Condition" under "Add To Program" and then choose the A button of your keypad similar to what I show below and click "Add to If".

Then you want to add the B button like this and click "Add to If"

At this point you have a program that will react to the either of the two buttons being turned ON.

Should give you something that looks like:

Test - [ID 00AD][Parent 002B]

If
        'FR-Keypad-Button A' is switched On
     Or 'FR-Keypad-Button A / FR-Keypad-Button B' is switched On
 
Then
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

You would then add whatever you wanted to happen in the THEN part of the program.  Then you would have to create a similar program for when the buttons are turned OFF.

 

[redridge]

No kidding.  That simple.  Just like non-Insteon X10 keypad programming.