Buying a Elk M1

[Scottmichaelj]

9 hours ago, smithlevenson said:

I hear you, and I appreciate the help. You just never made a logical correlation between monitoring and having an network intrusion. Does an alarm monitoring company watch your internet traffic? Would they know the difference between an authorized and unauthorized user? The plan is to set up the Elk and shut off external access except for ELK update notifications (as much as that is possible).

I know it sounds far fetched, but open a port on your home network and make a open guest account for a DVR program like Blue Iris. Watch as the world logs into your system to watch your cameras. I use Z-wave locks because of the AES 128 encryption. I haven't heard of an Insteon getting hacked, but I do wish the security and reliability were higher. I just really don't want a simple exploit like the old garage door signal sniffers to undo my modest protections. That's why I returned the Simply Safe. It's disarm from the keyfob sent your password unencrypted to the base station. 

As for Monitoring, I just fail to see much upside. If we are gone and the alarm is triggered, A guy making minimum wage calls me and ask for a password. At that point I need to either get on my cameras and determine it is a false alarm or have him call the police. He does absolutely zero, except warm body to receive the alarm and dial 911 if I don't have my phone on me. I mean, you could very easily write a program to replace the logic an alarm company employee might use. 

Obviously, fire alarms are a different story since the additional time could prevent further destruction. But I could add several family members to the notifications and be pretty sure that they would respond as well. I get the difference between 24/7 and an ad hoc solution, but it doesn't mean monitored == safe and self-monitored != safe. 

 

"I hear you, and I appreciate the help. You just never made a logical correlation between monitoring and having an network intrusion. Does an alarm monitoring company watch your internet traffic? Would they know the difference between an authorized and unauthorized user? The plan is to set up the Elk and shut off external access except for ELK update notifications (as much as that is possible)."

-Sorry I was not trying to make any correlation between monitoring and network intrusion. Both are equally important to me. It just seems that your worried about "network security" more than actual security. I feel both are equal. The C1M1 is a two way connection using cellular. There is no security issues I am aware of here. The C1M1 "check in" at the specific time and only calls the central station with those check-ins, any supervised device issues and alarm triggers.I doubt anyone is going to hack into it. @MWareman is a security professional and uses an Elk M1 with the XEP. If its good enough for him its good enough for me and my clients. All "Elk notifications" would most likely be via the ISY ELK Module not from the ELK itself, depending on the service you want and programming/notifications.

"I know it sounds far fetched, but open a port on your home network and make a open guest account for a DVR program like Blue Iris. Watch as the world logs into your system to watch your cameras. I use Z-wave locks because of the AES 128 encryption. I haven't heard of an Insteon getting hacked, but I do wish the security and reliability were higher. I just really don't want a simple exploit like the old garage door signal sniffers to undo my modest protections. That's why I returned the Simply Safe. It's disarm from the keyfob sent your password unencrypted to the base station. "

-No its not to me. I agree, for the best network security you shouldn't have any open ports, use a VPN and Mobilinc Connect or ISY Portal subscription to your ISY for secured connections. That said I would say my "worry" for Insteon, ZWave, etc to be actually have signals intercepted and hacked is remote. You have a "backup" for this, your alarm system.

"As for Monitoring, I just fail to see much upside. If we are gone and the alarm is triggered, A guy making minimum wage calls me and ask for a password. At that point I need to either get on my cameras and determine it is a false alarm or have him call the police. He does absolutely zero, except warm body to receive the alarm and dial 911 if I don't have my phone on me. I mean, you could very easily write a program to replace the logic an alarm company employee might use. "

-As for as selling you monitoring, I honestly am not. Just don't be fooled thinking your secured and @larryllix and I have made various points to this.

"Obviously, fire alarms are a different story since the additional time could prevent further destruction. But I could add several family members to the notifications and be pretty sure that they would respond as well. I get the difference between 24/7 and an ad hoc solution, but it doesn't mean monitored == safe and self-monitored != safe."

-I actually wonder if there are statistics how many people die in a fire vs a burglary. If I was to guess I think your chances of dying in a fire are greater, but have nothing to back it up. I personally have know three people have a fire at their homes, two of which lost their whole house and one lost pets. One of my friends actually are still after a year and a half displaced by the fire and in temp housing.

Again this is just an opinion and my take as a professional installer. I am not trying to sell you on a monitoring company, a system, etc. I am just trying to give you food for thought. Feel free to PM me anytime if you need ELK/ISY help.

~Scott

[smithlevenson]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Again this is just an opinion and my take as a professional installer. I am not trying to sell you on a monitoring company, a system, etc. I am just trying to give you food for thought. Feel free to PM me anytime if you need ELK/ISY help.

~Scott

I appreciate it. Not everyone is willing to take the time to help out. You have sent a ton of good info and it helps to know that people are out there with experience. 

[apostolakisl]

Just get Watchlight monitoring.  It is like $120/year.  They are good and are very happy to monitor a self-installed Elk.  You can't rely on people getting texts in a timely fashion.  And the confusion of having a whole bunch of people get the texts would be an issue.  I use them at home and office for about 10 years now.  They just do exactly what they are supposed to do.

[larryllix]

9 hours ago, smithlevenson said:

Agreed, but with my family I don't mind giving them access to my cameras to check on what's going on. Plus two of them live less than 5 min away, so they could technically check on the house themselves. I am not anti-monitoring, just it needs to be an integrated part of a solution that doesn't create more problems than it solves.

There is not a perfect system, but I am happy to try and make it as fool proof as possible with all suggestions. The one thing I know I can't do is use Insteon to replace an alarm system. IMO, it is not nearly reliable enough. You could go way overboard with redundancy, battery backup, Biometrics etc., but I go for a more intangible goal. Do my wife and I feel safe?

Let's face it the odds of dying in a break in or house fire are so incredibly low that all of these measures are basically overkill. I also have an answer for not getting tied up which has little to do with an alarm, and my wife can hit a deer on the move in the neck from 200+ yds, so criminal beware. ?

LOL! Sure, but can she shoot a deer from 200 yards while the 14 year old  perp is neurotically waving the rifle? Now comes the Canada vs. USA gun mentality thing, so I am not going any further on that one.  

I don't use a paid monitor either, but then I sometimes  go out and don't lock my doors at all. I live in a semi-rural area where crime is extremely low.

I will finish with this one. Winter of 1989-90 we came back from a three week vacation only to find a window smashed, furnace running wide open, and things missing. Luckily only a small mess was found and a lot of kids stuff gone. We knew who did it and had proof. Police really weren't interested. We lost an irreplaceable family George Medal award. The toys and money weren't a big deal but....
The kid found some boxes of frozen chocolates and sitting on our bed for an estimated 4-5 hours, watched our VHS tapes, while he sorted through our cheap jewelry,.
We never felt relaxed on any vacation again, but neither would mention it to the other, until going home time. Three years later we sold the house and moved out. Sounds dumb but that happens to a lot of victims. We felt like  rape victims.

Professional I have talked to advise me of this:

•  The warning stickers on the windows do more than any electronics will ever do. This may be why you can never purchase formal looking stickers.
•  You will not stop a determined thief from breaking in, but spending money trying to minimise the time they spend in your house may be well worth it. When they don't find enough of value I hear reports of people coming home to spray painted walls, and water falls rolling down their staircase. Just relax. It's only water,  paint,  shrink bills for years, and maybe some realestate fees. No amount of smart electronics or monitoring is going to stop that.

[apostolakisl]

9 hours ago, larryllix said:

 

•  You will not stop a determined thief from breaking in, but spending money trying to minimise the time they spend in your house may be well worth it. When they don't find enough of value I hear reports of people coming home to spray painted walls, and water falls rolling down their staircase. Just relax. It's only water,  paint,  shrink bills for years, and maybe some realestate fees. No amount of smart electronics or monitoring is going to stop that.

Actually, yes, electronics will stop that . . . at least the water part.  When I arm "away", the water shuts off 40 minutes later via Elk.  And if a water sensor trips, it shuts off right away.  This has already saved me huge when I had a leak behind the dishwasher that was running under the hardwood floor.  I had no idea there was a leak except for the water sensor.  Unfortunately, I assumed a malfunction in the water sensor since I couldn't see any water and didn't prioritize it.  So it leaked for 24 hours before I actually pulled the dishwasher and discovered it was for real.  But the floor only slightly buckled and then eventually went back down.  If it had run for a week or two, I'm sure it would have been a tear out of the section and full refinishing of my entire first floor.

[smithlevenson]

I just saw this from the municipality next to mine. Kinda makes the whole monitoring thing moot for anything but fire.

Sandy Springs, GA Requires Visual Confirmation

 

[smithlevenson]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

Actually, yes, electronics will stop that . . . at least the water part.  When I arm "away", the water shuts off 40 minutes later via Elk.  And if a water sensor trips, it shuts off right away.  This has already saved me huge when I had a leak behind the dishwasher that was running under the hardwood floor.  I had no idea there was a leak except for the water sensor.  Unfortunately, I assumed a malfunction in the water sensor since I couldn't see any water and didn't prioritize it.  So it leaked for 24 hours before I actually pulled the dishwasher and discovered it was for real.  But the floor only slightly buckled and then eventually went back down.  If it had run for a week or two, I'm sure it would have been a tear out of the section and full refinishing of my entire first floor.

Off topic, but I am definitely into this. What brand water valve are you using? I think setting an "away" threshold to monitor water leaks would be a great thing.

 

Supposedly they have smart water valves that know the difference between someone showering and a running toilet.

[smithlevenson]

11 hours ago, larryllix said:

LOL! Sure, but can she shoot a deer from 200 yards while the 14 year old  perp is neurotically waving the rifle? Now comes the Canada vs. USA gun mentality thing, so I am not going any furt

 

Funny. ? I get it that not everyone is comfortable with guns as a means of home defense. I wouldn't try and justify it, since statistically they are more likely to be involved in an accidental discharge (don't worry they are all in safes) than in protecting from a home invasion, but when you grow up around them all your life they elicit about the same response as having sharp knives in the kitchen.

We have had some low level rummaging through garages and cars left open in the neighborhood. I have perfect 1080p video of the perps that I gave to the police (basically a perfect mugshot) and they looked at me and said, "You got a name to go with that face?" I was like if I knew who it was I would go get my stuff back. That's big city police for you.

[smithlevenson]

So I totally buried my lead...

 

Does anyone use the XEP Ethernet interface? It looks to have mediocre reviews. Is the cellular C1M1 just for dialing a monitoring station or can you send data/text over 3g as well?

 

Would I be better off getting the Smarthome M1 Gold package with the XEP included and an extra ISY 994i and PLM (which my dad can use) or get the Two way wireless and keyfob for $50 less? Is the XEP and ISY Elk module the only way of getting status updates from the Elk M1?

It looked like on the wiki page that this is definitely a non-secure connection, unless I am reading it wrong.

 

XEP Package

Two Way Wireless Package

[Scottmichaelj]

So I totally buried my lead...
 
Does anyone use the XEP Ethernet interface? It looks to have mediocre reviews. Is the cellular C1M1 just for dialing a monitoring station or can you send data/text over 3g as well?
 
Would I be better off getting the Smarthome M1 Gold package with the XEP included and an extra ISY 994i and PLM (which my dad can use) or get the Two way wireless and keyfob for $50 less? Is the XEP and ISY Elk module the only way of getting status updates from the Elk M1?
It looked like on the wiki page that this is definitely a non-secure connection, unless I am reading it wrong.
 
XEP Package
Two Way Wireless Package

Most either use the XEP or C1M1 which is required for the ISY module as it connects your Elk to the network. There is no ethernet connection on the panel. Not sure why there would be low reviews, it works or it doesn’t. This is how the Elk software connects to and programs your system. If your going to self monitoring buying the C1M1 wouldn’t make sense as it costs more than the XEP.

Also monitoring is good for medical emergencies.

[apostolakisl]

I don't know anything about the C1M1, but if it works like the typical cellular alarm system communicator, then it does one thing . . . call central station over cellular.  It will use tones to communicate whatever it is needing to communicate, not anything you could interpret without the equipment that "hears" the tones and translates them.

The Elk XEP is a must if you plan on putting your Elk on the internet or intranet.  You can use the serial connector to program the Elk, but you can't connect ISY to it with anything but the XEP.  It works fine, not perfect.  I have had a couple issues with it where it lost its IP address setting and went to some off-base default for ? reasons.  But I have had it 10 years and it has only done that twice.  If you want it to send you emails (or email to text), or connect to ISY, then you must have it.  There is no other option as far as I know.  There used to be a 3rd party option, but it is no longer for sale.  I do not believe you can do anything with the serial connection that is built into it as far as any of that is concerned.  Once you connect Elk to ISY, there isn't a lot of stuff you would program on Elk that isn't strictly security.  Almost all of the HA stuff is better done using ISY and the Elk module for ISY.

As far as water valve, I bought the Elk WSV.  It is pricey and there are other options (some of which are the Elk WSV with Chinese branding).  It is built like a brick shit-house.  I have two of them, one at the office and one at home.  I have a timer on Elk that delays 40 minutes post arm-away so laundry or dishwasher loads don't get interrupted.  I put about 30 water sensors all over my house while under construction and those will cause an immediate shut-down of the water if tripped.

[smithlevenson]

On 6/12/2019 at 12:46 PM, Scottmichaelj said:

 

What is your recommendation for the wired door sensors?

[apostolakisl]

3 hours ago, smithlevenson said:

What is your recommendation for the wired door sensors?

I used the GE 3/8 magnetic reed ones.  They work great and are basically invisible.  Not for metal doors or windows though, just wood.  I used the version with screw terminals rather than splice the wires.

[Scottmichaelj]

I used the GE 3/8 magnetic reed ones.  They work great and are basically invisible.  Not for metal doors or windows though, just wood.  I used the version with screw terminals rather than splice the wires.

Agree anything is fine - its just a magnet and relay, never had a favorite brand. They all seem to work fine.

[MWareman]

Been away for a few days (vacation) - but I use the XEP with great success.

I have my Elk setup with Alarm Relay (been using them for 15 years now) and have monitoring use the XEP to signal over IP as a primary, and I have a cellular dialer as secondary both to Alarm Relay.

The cellular dialer is using a legacy T-Mobile PAYG plan that unfortunately isn’t available anymore. I add $10 each year to it to keep it alive. So far it’s cost me $100 initially to get ‘gold’ status then $10/yr to keep the plan alive. So far, 15 years of cellular service for a total of $250 ($16.60 per year cannot be beat!). I don’t have a legacy phone line, but if I did I would set that up as tertiary as well...

As far as the IP based reporting with the XEP - it is outbound to a fixed IP address. Very easy to lock down. No inbound NAT is needed at all. It does NOT monitor any internet traffic at all.