Communication between ELK m1 and isy994i

[autoperformance]

hello i wish to operate my shut off main valve with insteon water leak sensors that i have already installed at 5 place right now. I also have a basic 2-wire water leakage sensor which can be connected to the inputs of the ELK M1 alarm system. How to configure all this? I would like advice on where to start.

 

Do I really need this to do what I need.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-994i_Series_INSTEON:ELK_Security_Module

 

Thank you

[Scottmichaelj]

Do you have the Elk water shutoff valve and Elk module for the ISY?

[autoperformance]

I have the Elk M1 Gold system with Ethernet module. But the valve is a stainless steel US SOLID 5 wires valve.

[autoperformance]

33 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Do you have the Elk water shutoff valve and Elk module for the ISY?

I DON'T Have $650 usd just for a valve unfortunately.

[Brian H]

If you don't have the ELK Security Module for the ISY994i. The features you can use are severely limited.

At one time Smarthome sold a kit. The ELK system with needed ELK boards and an ISY994i. What they forgot to mention was with out the ELK Security Module for the  ISY  added. It had less things you could do.

Here is the wiki link for basic ELK use with  an ISY994i.   https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:ELK_Configuration.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-994i_Series_INSTEON:Networking:Network_Resources#Elk_IP-232

[autoperformance]

14 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If you don't have the ELK Security Module for the ISY994i. The features you can use are severely limited.

At one time Smarthome sold a kit. The ELK system with needed ELK boards and an ISY994i. What they forgot to mention was with out the ELK Security Module for the  ISY  added. It had less things you could do.

Here is the wiki link for basic ELK use with  an ISY994i.   https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:ELK_Configuration.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-994i_Series_INSTEON:Networking:Network_Resources#Elk_IP-232

So I really need the $99 security to do with I want to do?

 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-994i_Series_INSTEON:ELK_Security_Module

[Brian H]

I don't have any experience with ELK.

I don't know if the basic interface will be enough for what you want to do or if the added Security Module will be needed.

[apostolakisl]

If you have an Elk and an ISY, I highly suggest spending the $99 and getting the Elk module for ISY.  It is very complete and allows you to streamline all of your programming into ISY instead of using Elk rules.  Elk rules are not the greatest, especially when it comes to organizing and editing after the fact.

However, if you choose not to do that, and you intend on using both Insteon and Elk connected water sensors, then you will need to use Elk rules to do everything.  Elk has built-in ability to control Insteon devices and you can export your Insteon configuration into Elk   https://www.elkproducts.com/m1-integration-partners/insteon    Once that configuration is in Elk, you can use Elk rules to manage both Insteon connected devices/sensors and Elk connected devices/sensors.  I haven't so much as looked at that stuff for about a decade now since the ISY/Elk module was released.

[bdw72]

Have you looked at this?

https://innovativehomesys.com/products/insteon-water-shutoff-valve-package-deal?variant=944466575

[Scottmichaelj]

So I really need the $99 security to do with I want to do?

 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-994i_Series_INSTEON:ELK_Security_Module

 

Yes because the only way the ISY water leak detectors can communicate to the Elk (Insteon to Elk) is via the ISY module. If you want to put in normal wired water leaks then you can use the Elk direct and use rules. I am an Elk installer/reseller and use the ISY Elk Module with Elk all the time, well worth the $100. I am not 100% certain the water shutoff valve will work direct with the Elk panel either. You may have to use an IOLinc to turn it on if water is detected. Some of those need the power to stay closed to keep it in the closed position if the water zone is violated. They have different versions and when I called USS customer service for another customer who wanted the cheaper version they couldn’t give me a straight answer, so I stayed with the Elk water shutoff.

[autoperformance]

20 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Yes because the only way the ISY water leak detectors can communicate to the Elk (Insteon to Elk) is via the ISY module. If you want to put in normal wired water leaks then you can use the Elk direct and use rules. I am an Elk installer/reseller and use the ISY Elk Module with Elk all the time, well worth the $100. I am not 100% certain the water shutoff valve will work direct with the Elk panel either. You may have to use an IOLinc to turn it on if water is detected. Some of those need the power to stay closed to keep it in the closed position if the water zone is violated. They have different versions and when I called USS customer service for another customer who wanted the cheaper version they couldn’t give me a straight answer, so I stayed with the Elk water shutoff.

Ok same little I/O link you can use for old torch lamp ? Good to know. Bad the Elk pannel can't be used. The fact the battery backup can be use even during a power outage it's a good thing..

https://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module

So, you tell me that the module is worth the amount? I could use my 5 insteon sensors without problems?

https://www.insteon.com/leak-sensor

 

[Scottmichaelj]

Ok same little I/O link you can use for old torch lamp ? Good to know. Bad the Elk pannel can't be used. The fact the battery backup can be use even during a power outage it's a good thing..
https://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module
So, you tell me that the module is worth the amount? I could use my 5 insteon sensors without problems?
https://www.insteon.com/leak-sensor
 

So first thing is you need to first figure out does the water shutoff valve need power to keep it closed or open? OR does the power just turn it on and off? Sometimes there can be communication issues plugging a Insteon device into a power strip or UPS so you will have to test and make sure it’s reliable too but that could be an option for backup. Obviously your taking a risk here if it cant communicate, but the same could be said for the actual water leak sensors being wireless and battery operated sending the command. Theres a thread here for water leak programs thats really good, do a search. It will monitor heatbeats and notify you for low battery etc.

Assuming the WSOV always needs power then a second option could be you add an extra panel with battery to the Elk panel (Elk-P624) and wire the shutoff valve to it for power/backup. The downside is IF the shutoff valve needs power to keep it closed then you need to figure out the total power draw for the WSOV (water shutoff valve) for the battery to drain. Would this give you ample time? This would also assume your wire for the WSOV goes to the Elk panel. If you just need power to open and close this is the best route.

Lastly if you can wire the water leaks you can use a GRI water leak sensor direct to Elk panel and then use the panel to power them and the WSOV. You just need to make sure again you have enough battery backup for the valve and security if you have a power outage. The nice thing about the Elks WSOV is it only needs power to turn on and off, then it can plug in directly to the panel for power and the single battery backup is enough.

At the end of the day your still going to need the Elk module for the Insteon to Elk communication.

Confused yet? There are options.

[apostolakisl]

6 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Yes because the only way the ISY water leak detectors can communicate to the Elk (Insteon to Elk) is via the ISY module. If you want to put in normal wired water leaks then you can use the Elk direct and use rules. I am an Elk installer/reseller and use the ISY Elk Module with Elk all the time, well worth the $100. I am not 100% certain the water shutoff valve will work direct with the Elk panel either. You may have to use an IOLinc to turn it on if water is detected. Some of those need the power to stay closed to keep it in the closed position if the water zone is violated. They have different versions and when I called USS customer service for another customer who wanted the cheaper version they couldn’t give me a straight answer, so I stayed with the Elk water shutoff.

While I can't speak specifically to an Insteon water detector, Elk rules can respond to the status of (most, many, all???) Insteon devices natively(light switches for sure, I've done it) without the ISY Elk module.  If you export your Insteon config from ISY and import to Elk, the devices will all be there ready to use in either the "Whenever" section or the "Then" section.  From there, you can hardwire the water valve to the Elk, or you can use an Insteon i/o link to control the valve.  Again, not 100% sure if Elk can talk to Insteon devices natively that aren't standard light switches.  Again, none of this requires the Elk module.  When you import the Insteon network into Elk, the Elk will use the ISY as a passthrough device relaying the lighting commands to the PLM.

Go to the 27 minute mark in this video.  https://www.elkproducts.com/m1-integration-partners/insteon

Though I still think the $99 is worth it for the module.

[Scottmichaelj]

While I can't speak specifically to an Insteon water detector, Elk rules can respond to the status of (most, many, all???) Insteon devices natively(light switches for sure, I've done it) without the ISY Elk module.  If you export your Insteon config from ISY and import to Elk, the devices will all be there ready to use in either the "Whenever" section or the "Then" section.  From there, you can hardwire the water valve to the Elk, or you can use an Insteon i/o link to control the valve.  Again, not 100% sure if Elk can talk to Insteon devices natively that aren't standard light switches.  Again, none of this requires the Elk module.  When you import the Insteon network into Elk, the Elk will use the ISY as a passthrough device relaying the lighting commands to the PLM.
Go to the 27 minute mark in this video.  https://www.elkproducts.com/m1-integration-partners/insteon
Though I still think the $99 is worth it for the module.

Wow TBH I never knew this, I thought the Elk only showed up after purchasing the module. Egg on my face if this is true, which since you do it, then, egg on my face! However it does still need the M1XEP. I still stand by my post though.

Can you arm and disarm your system?

What about notifications when the elk is armed/disarmed?

How well do the Elk rules work vs a direct ISY program? Limitations?

*Also cool thing to do is have the Elk speaker sound/speak/notify you “Water Leak Detected in X” - because when your sleeping you wont see any notifications!

[autoperformance]

7 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Wow TBH I never knew this, I thought the Elk only showed up after purchasing the module. Egg on my face if this is true, which since you do it, then, egg on my face! However it does still need the M1XEP. I still stand by my post though.

Can you arm and disarm your system?

What about notifications when the elk is armed/disarmed?

How well do the Elk rules work vs a direct ISY program? Limitations?

*Also cool thing to do is have the Elk speaker sound/speak/notify you “Water Leak Detected in X” - because when your sleeping you wont see any notifications!

 

Elk speaker sound/speak/notify you “Water Leak Detected in X” - very good idea!???

And yes I have M1XEP and notification? 

[apostolakisl]

16 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Wow TBH I never knew this, I thought the Elk only showed up after purchasing the module. Egg on my face if this is true, which since you do it, then, egg on my face! However it does still need the M1XEP. I still stand by my post though.

Can you arm and disarm your system?

What about notifications when the elk is armed/disarmed?

How well do the Elk rules work vs a direct ISY program? Limitations?

*Also cool thing to do is have the Elk speaker sound/speak/notify you “Water Leak Detected in X” - because when your sleeping you wont see any notifications!

 

Yes, you have to have the xep.  

Arm/Disarm from ISY program, no.  But you can arm/disarm from ISY console without the Elk module.  You could indirectly arm/disarm by having ISY change the status of an INsteon device to something specified in an Elk rule, triggering the Elk rule to arm/disarm.

Elk can send you notifications of being armed/disarmed via email, email to text, or a phone call.  This is all Elk . . . ISY not involved.

Elk rules work very very reliably (If I really need something to happen for sure, I don't use ISY, I used Elk rule even with the Elk module).  As far as limitations, I don't know, I mean they are different languages and each has its up and downs.

I have my leak detectors hard wired to Elk.  And yes, my Elk speakers announce a water emergency, call central station, and shuts the water off.  I consider the water thing a security system thing, not home automation, and it resides entirely on Elk.  My ISY has no role at all in the water thing.

 

EDIT:  Just to put this in context, I had my ISY and my Elk for several years prior to the module being a thing.  So I did jump through a number of hoops to get the two working together.

EDIT2:  And it has actually worked as advertised.  I did have a leak behind a dishwasher that was running water into the subfloor under my hardwood floor that the Elk picked up.  Without it, my first signs of an issue would have been my kitchen floor popping.

[Scottmichaelj]

Yes, you have to have the xep.  
Arm/Disarm from ISY program, no.  But you can arm/disarm from ISY console without the Elk module.  You could indirectly arm/disarm by having ISY change the status of an INsteon device to something specified in an Elk rule, triggering the Elk rule to arm/disarm.
Elk can send you notifications of being armed/disarmed via email, email to text, or a phone call.  This is all Elk . . . ISY not involved.
Elk rules work very very reliably (If I really need something to happen for sure, I don't use ISY, I used Elk rule even with the Elk module).  As far as limitations, I don't know, I mean they are different languages and each has its up and downs.
I have my leak detectors hard wired to Elk.  And yes, my Elk speakers announce a water emergency, call central station, and shuts the water off.  I consider the water thing a security system thing, not home automation, and it resides entirely on Elk.  My ISY has no role at all in the water thing.

Agree 100% and I personally never recommend Insteon for these situations. That said, some have different risk factors than others and I don’t judge. Not something I would do but if other do its their prerogative. I do love Elk systems and the things they are capable of.

[autoperformance]

2 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Yes, you have to have the xep.  

Arm/Disarm from ISY program, no.  But you can arm/disarm from ISY console without the Elk module.  You could indirectly arm/disarm by having ISY change the status of an INsteon device to something specified in an Elk rule, triggering the Elk rule to arm/disarm.

Elk can send you notifications of being armed/disarmed via email, email to text, or a phone call.  This is all Elk . . . ISY not involved.

Elk rules work very very reliably (If I really need something to happen for sure, I don't use ISY, I used Elk rule even with the Elk module).  As far as limitations, I don't know, I mean they are different languages and each has its up and downs.

I have my leak detectors hard wired to Elk.  And yes, my Elk speakers announce a water emergency, call central station, and shuts the water off.  I consider the water thing a security system thing, not home automation, and it resides entirely on Elk.  My ISY has no role at all in the water thing.

Question about GRI water leak  sensor. How to you connect that to Elk Panel ?

Do I need other module between sensor and ELK Panel ?

I think I will do like you said. Water Leak It's security thing.

 

Thank you for your help again very appreciated. 

[apostolakisl]

43 minutes ago, autoperformance said:

Question about GRI water leak  sensor. How to you connect that to Elk Panel ?

Do I need other module between sensor and ELK Panel ?

I think I will do like you said. Water Leak It's security thing.

 

Thank you for your help again very appreciated. 

I have GRI 2500 devices at home.  I just bought a bunch of 2600 for the office.  The 2500 are a straight-up 2-wire zone connection.  They are NO circuits and thus alarm on closing the circuit (opposite of most alarming zones, but Elk allows for that).  The down side to 2500 devices is that they are not supervised.  If a wire or device fails, there is a good chance that the zone will stay in an open state, and thus you won't know about it without testing.  The upside is that it is a simple 2-wire connection.

The 2600 units require 4 wires, two for power and two for the security loop and exist in a NC state.  So, like any other NC security zone, you can supervise them with EOL resistor.  The downside of course is that you need to run 4 wires and have a 12v power supply available (Elk has ample power built-in for most any residential install).  They function similarly to a 4-wire smoke detector.  With supervision, there are very few situations where a failure in the system doesn't either show a trouble or alarm condition on the panel.  

[autoperformance]

9 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Yes because the only way the ISY water leak detectors can communicate to the Elk (Insteon to Elk) is via the ISY module. If you want to put in normal wired water leaks then you can use the Elk direct and use rules. I am an Elk installer/reseller and use the ISY Elk Module with Elk all the time, well worth the $100. I am not 100% certain the water shutoff valve will work direct with the Elk panel either. You may have to use an IOLinc to turn it on if water is detected. Some of those need the power to stay closed to keep it in the closed position if the water zone is violated. They have different versions and when I called USS customer service for another customer who wanted the cheaper version they couldn’t give me a straight answer, so I stayed with the Elk water shutoff.

Ok Tonight I do some test with the USS water shutoff valve with 5 wires. And It seem to be like ELK Valve de-energize when it full open or totally closed. I will test with my amp meter to be sure and come back with the result.

 

[autoperformance]

Ok test done 46mA during the opening or closing state, and 3mA totally closed or totally open. Not a big deal!

Seem well made and 3 other wire for state of the valve.

 

If I do an automatic cycle each month to avoid the valve to stick, this thing will do the job.

[Scottmichaelj]

Ok test done 46mA during the opening or closing state, and 3mA totally closed or totally open. Not a big deal! Seem well made and 3 other wire for state of the valve.

 

If I do an automatic cycle each month to avoid the valve to stick, this thing will do the job.

 

 

Nice. Seems your all good to go! Do you have the WSOV wires in the Elk panel? If so I bet you would have enough power to run 4 wire GRI 2600s and the WSOV directly from the Elk panel without anything extra. Then in the Elk rules schedule a monthly close and open with an email to you letting you know it worked. You could time it at some random time late in the morning say 3am when your not likely to be using water.

 

Edit: I also agree with @apostolakisl post above. Not that he cares! lol jk

 

[autoperformance]

37 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I have GRI 2500 devices at home.  I just bought a bunch of 2600 for the office.  The 2500 are a straight-up 2-wire zone connection.  They are NO circuits and thus alarm on closing the circuit (opposite of most alarming zones, but Elk allows for that).  The down side to 2500 devices is that they are not supervised.  If a wire or device fails, there is a good chance that the zone will stay in an open state, and thus you won't know about it without testing.  The upside is that it is a simple 2-wire connection.

The 2600 units require 4 wires, two for power and two for the security loop and exist in a NC state.  So, like any other NC security zone, you can supervise them with EOL resistor.  The downside of course is that you need to run 4 wires and have a 12v power supply available (Elk has ample power built-in for most any residential install).  They function similarly to a 4-wire smoke detector.  With supervision, there are very few situations where a failure in the system doesn't either show a trouble or alarm condition on the panel.  

I found this in my basement. The Elk could work with this kind of leak sensor?

Direct Plug-In ?

[Scottmichaelj]

I found this in my basement. The Elk could work with this kind of leak sensor?
Direct Plug-In ?

Yes its a direct two wire. Should be fine. Give it a test. Again 2-wire are not supervised though. Water leaks are simple devices. Those can screw to a baseboard or back of a cabinet so they stay in place. You can also use a dab of silicone to keep it from being pushed to a corner of the cabinet etc.

[autoperformance]

4 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Yes its a direct two wire. Should be fine. Give it a test. Again 2-wire are not supervised though. Water leaks are simple devices. Those can screw to a baseboard or back of a cabinet so they stay in place. You can also use a dab of silicone to keep it from being pushed to a corner of the cabinet etc.

 

Ok I will buy 4 wire GRI2600