Insteon issues with TED 5000 energy monitor active

[Ishmael]

I will start off by saying that perhaps this could have been resolved, but none of the things I tried or that the vendor suggested helped, so I had to return the unit. I was working with one of the very first units as well, so over time, they may also discover new options to address this.

 

I recently purchased a TED 5000 energy monitor from The Energy Detective. The unit is a complete revamp of the TED 1000 and apparently uses a stronger communication signal, which is likely the core issue.

 

Overall, the monitor itself worked really well. It involved current transformers installed in the electrical panel connected to a metering unit (MTU) that transmitted data using some type of powerline communication to a network appliance which they call the gateway. Unfortunately, the PLC used from the MTU to the gateway caused my Insteon communication to become totally haphazard. My ISY-99i intermittently gave errors about being unable to communicate with devices, and other linked devices became unreliable in their behavior. I tried quite a number of adjustments, but as long as the MTU and gateway were live, Insteon was a mess.

 

Chris

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks so very much for the update.

 

Have you tried Brultech meters?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I will start off by saying that perhaps this could have been resolved, but none of the things I tried or that the vendor suggested helped, so I had to return the unit. I was working with one of the very first units as well, so over time, they may also discover new options to address this.

 

I recently purchased a TED 5000 energy monitor from The Energy Detective. The unit is a complete revamp of the TED 1000 and apparently uses a stronger communication signal, which is likely the core issue.

 

Overall, the monitor itself worked really well. It involved current transformers installed in the electrical panel connected to a metering unit (MTU) that transmitted data using some type of powerline communication to a network appliance which they call the gateway. Unfortunately, the PLC used from the MTU to the gateway caused my Insteon communication to become totally haphazard. My ISY-99i intermittently gave errors about being unable to communicate with devices, and other linked devices became unreliable in their behavior. I tried quite a number of adjustments, but as long as the MTU and gateway were live, Insteon was a mess.

 

Chris

[Ishmael]

Hi Michel,

 

Have you tried Brultech meters?

 

I have not tried the Brultech meter yet. Originally, I chose the TED 5000 since it was less expensive and its dedicated network appliance looked like it would be a simpler way to meet my needs. Over the weeknd, when it started to look like the TED 5000 was a lsot cause, I sent Brultech some questions regarding compatability. Three business days later, I haven't heard a word from them. I'd blame the holiday, but they're in Canada and Canada Day was 7/1. I called and left them voicemail on Wednesday as well, and hopefully I'll hear something soon.

 

Assuming all goes well, I expect to be another one of those people interested in the ability to the extra ports provided on the ECM-1240 from the ISY-99i.

 

Chris

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Chris,

 

Unfortunately, I must admit that I know exactly what you mean vis-a-vis Brultech. In any case, Brultech is on our list for 2.7.7 or 2.7.8 (2.7.6 should be out over the weekend).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RatRanch]

Chris,

 

FWIW, even though the Brultech ECM-1240 isn't fully (or even yet officially) supported by ISY, I've found the device to be a very useful addition to my system and have no regrets about selecting this product. It's been immensely helpful for measuring and reducing our residence's total energy usage when nobody is home. The planned future support for its additional ports is just gravy.

 

Cheers,

-Jim

[automateme]

I also recently upgraded to a TED5000 and found that I am now having reliability issues with my Insteon communications. I had been using a TED1000 for many months with no problems at all. I will see if there is anything that Energy Inc can do, otherwise I will have to go back to the TED1000 or perhaps look at the Brultech.

[sk8er02]

I was considering getting a TED5000, are you still having Insteon communication issues with it?

 

I also recently upgraded to a TED5000 and found that I am now having reliability issues with my Insteon communications. I had been using a TED1000 for many months with no problems at all. I will see if there is anything that Energy Inc can do, otherwise I will have to go back to the TED1000 or perhaps look at the Brultech.

[automateme]

I was considering getting a TED5000, are you still having Insteon communication issues with it?

 

I am successfully using the TED5000 now. I am not experiencing any notable communications problems. It turned out that at the same time I upgraded to the TED5000, I went on a "green" kick and replaced most all of my light bulbs with dimmable CFL's. The CFL's wreaked havoc on my Insteon network. As soon as I pulled out the CFL's and went back to incandescent bulbs, my communications problems disappeared.

[xd40]

The Internet is amazing--I believe that all information is there, I just don't find it until AFTER I buy the products.

 

I just installed a TED 5000 and it causes my ISY99 to flip out within an hour. I lose communication with the ISY via Ethernet and I go to the box and it has hung or crashed to the point that the Ethernet card on the ISY has shut off. Restarting the ISY solves the problem for a little bit, but then it crashes again. I was wondering if I set up 2 circuits on the 2 phases like this if this would solve the problem:

 

CB-P1 = CircuitBreaker Phase1

CB-P2 = CircuitBreaker Phase2

MTU = Ted 5000 MTU

GW = Ted 5000 Gateway

SB = Cross Phase signal bridge

 

CB-P1 --- FILTER --------------------- GW
                 |      |      |
                 SB    MTU    MTU ...
                 |      |      |
CB-P2 --- FILTER ---------------------  

 

Would this allow the Gateway to talk to the MTUs without the PLM signal trashing the Insteon network (because the Filters blocked the signal)?

 

Forgive me if this is an over simplification of analog electrical engineering principles (I'm a software guy).

[Brian H]

xd40; That may work.

I know that X10 users have also had TED5000 problems and giving the TED5000 system an isolated set of circuits, with filters. Worked in many problem installs. Not sure if the Phase Coupler you are showing would be needed.

 

Now from the TED5000 Troubleshooting Manual.

The TED5000 system uses a 132 KHz power line signal. Insteon is 131.65 KHz. It also sends an update every second {if I read between the lines correctly}. Basically hogging the power line from any other systems using power line communications. I am not surprised Insteon users may have TED5000 problems.

 

Have you looked in their forums for tips and solutions?

http://server17.hosting24.com/~sherlock ... 8dbfaa3d8&

[xd40]

I'm trying to look on their forum, but you can't search without registering and I think my registration got eaten by my spam filter. Which reminded me to request the registration email again.

 

Funny somebody drew a picture like mine on there and I think I had already seen it, but it didn't register consciously with me at the time.

 

My thought of adding the signal bridge was that the MTUs transmitted alternately on each of the phases and it was needed so the gateway could see the messages. After I submitted my post, I began to thing that it wasn't necessary and Brian you confirmed that my suspicion may be correct. Here's the thread on their forum:

 

http://server17.hosting24.com/~sherlock/techforum/index.php/topic,28.0.html

 

So here's my new thought now leaving my existing signal bridge on the same circuit as it currently is for my X10 stuff.

 

 

CB-P1 --------- FILTER --------------------- GW
        |               |      |
       SB              MTU    MTU ...
        |               |      |
CB-P2 --------- FILTER ---------------------  

 

Which brings me to my last question. Thanks for the frequency info for TED and Insteon. But a question I've had for a while is this: If I bought a signal bridge for X10 a while back, how would I know if it is bridging Insteon? I have the same question about Filters and blocking. When I look on Smarthome's catalog, they only mention X10 in the product descriptions, even though the product is in the Insteon AND X10 categories.

[Brian H]

Smarthome does make a hard wired Insteon Phase Coupler.

http://www.smarthome.com/2406H/SignaLin ... red/p.aspx

 

X10 is 120KHz and Insteon is 131.65KHz power line signal frequency.

An X10 coupler may not be tuned exactly to the Insteon frequency but I had one of the dryer outlet X10 ones Smarthome sells. It worked fine in my house with both X10 and Insteon. In tests where I disconnected my Access Points. One plus for Insteon is all it has to do is reach a module on the other phase and it gets resent. X10 does not. I would try the installed coupler first and then consider an Insteon one only if you got bad results.

 

Do you know what coupler you have? X10Pro ones used a set of tuned transformers and may not pass Insteon as well as some of the ones with a tuned capacitor and coil from phase to phase.

 

Do you have any Access Points or Dual Band Modules?

 

I have not seen an Insteon Tuned Filter but like others have had good luck with FilterLincs and some of the X10 filters. I have not used the Leviton 6287 but know X10 users that like them.

 

I had one added thought myself. I don't know the Ted Gateway at all. Is it possible since the MTU is constantly sending real time data. The network itself is getting overloaded with messages from the Gateway?

Oh I see you have addressed the network thing in a new thread.

[xd40]

I think I'm using a Leviton 6299 -- if it's not that it's something similar.

 

I'm close to buying a couple access points.

 

From what I can tell the MTUs are definitely wigging out the ISY because of either:

 

1. quantity of data transmissions

2. incompatibility of data transmission

 

The only Filter I'm using in my house at the moment is an AF120 with an APC UPS plugged into it. I had proven that the UPS was "eating" X10 signals on that circuit and because I had X10 PLMs on that circuit it was killing my X10 network.

[Brian H]

The AF120 is a nice filter. I don't think it is tuned so tightly that it would not help an Insteon signal also. I am using a FilterLinc on my APC BX1000 UPS.

 

6299 is the Leviton phase coupler. I am not familiar with it.

 

I would not doubt the MTUs constant transmissions are doing things to the Insteon Signals. They are very close in frequency and are timed to the power line Zero Crossing. X10 is also timed to Zero Crossing and Insteon starts 800 microseconds before Zero Crossing and the message continues past the Zero Crossing.

[xd40]

Yep, I'm liking the TED, and I "can't live" without the Insteon now so I'm going to work through this issue.

 

My experiment with the TED right now is this:

 

Run my A/C the way I've been running it for one full day then run it a new way for all of tomorrow and see what my usage is. Looking forward to seeing the outcome.

[xd40]

Turns out my issue MAY be that the TED was actually causing an issue on my Ethernet network which caused the ISY to wig out. See this thread:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=4859

[Brian H]

Could be I read your findings in the other thread.

 

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this and it may assist others in the future.

[xd40]

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this and it may assist others in the future.

 

You're welcome. One of my big pet peeves is when I find a forum discussion that talks about an EXACT problem I'm having but it doesn't have the solution at the bottom.

[Brian H]

Oh I see that all the time on the X10 Forums where I am a volunteer.

 

Problem reported by someone gets fixed but they never return with a "it is fixed" message.

[kcrossley]

Was there any resolution to Insteon compatibility with the TED 5000?

[xd40]

Was there any resolution to Insteon compatibility with the TED 5000?

 

to deinstall the TED. see:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=40590#40590

[xd40]

BTW the last straw was the TED turning on my X10 controlled sprinkler zones...

[kcrossley]

Rats. That sucks. I just got my TED 5000 and I'm really digging it. Was the eratic behavior limited to just X10 devices or Insteon as well?

[xd40]

Rats. That sucks. I just got my TED 5000 and I'm really digging it. Was the eratic behavior limited to just X10 devices or Insteon as well?

 

First thing I noticed was my ISY locking up. I only noticed the X10 issues later when I turned my sprinkler system back on (mostly because that's about the only thing I use X10 for still).

[Brian H]

I would think everything could be effected, but it may depend on the exact installation.

 

Data found in the TED5000 Troubleshooting guide:

The TED5000 uses the power line signal frequency of 132KHz and Insteon is 131.65KHZ. Very close

 

It also indicates that the updates are sent every few seconds. LED on MTU and Gateway flash ever few seconds. If communications is established.

 

Over in the X10 Forums.

I believe someone used an X10Pro XPF filter to isolate the branch circuit the MTU and Gateway where connected to, from the rest of the home.