Size of 1950's home electrical boxes, not good!

[Mustang65]

I was rather surprised when I originally removed some of the wall switch cover plates in my home that was built in 1957. First, some of the switches do not have the neutral (no surprise there), but what the builder did was drop down a neutral into some of other the switch boxes that went on to supply neutral to the wall outlet in the center of the wall.

I though, "This will be great!", as I can use the neutral on the Insteon switches that I purchased. After further investigation, with the install of the Insteon wall switch  for the front hall, I found that they did not use the 4x4 electrical box, as we know them today. They used much smaller boxes, and crimped wire connectors wrapped in the OLD style electrical tape, no wire nuts. The only thing that saved me on that project was that both BX connectors were on the same side of the box (upper and lower BX connectors), which allowed me to install the Insteon switch on the other side (eliminated the 2nd switch for the outlet under the widow).  Waiting on face plate to finish off the front hall light project.

So, it looks like I may have to somehow remove the old electrical boxes, drop a neutral wire in some and replace them with the new ones and not tear up the walls in the process. With textured walls that could be an issue. My PAR (Partner Acceptance Rating) will nosedive.

Never a dull moment.

 

[oberkc]

Sometimes I wonder whether it is worth it.  I love my automation, but never had to go through what you describe.  If I did, I would be asking myself whether the effort makes me happier in life.  Of course, if one enjoys tearing out electrical boxes and running wire, the answer to that question might be different that it would be for someone like me.

Never mind.  I would probably do it also.

[simplextech]

Hmm... options...

• Smart bulbs (Hue)
  • Lutron Aurora switch cover prevents toggle switch from being turned off and provides the local control for people
• In-Wall relay
  • control power through relay and use momentary switch
  • Some don't require neutral or can use a bypass
• Caseta Pro Switches
  • Small form factor
  • No Neutral required
    • needs bypass for LED lights
  • Not currently supported by ISY (nodeserver in planning)
  • Supported by Hubitat with nodeserver

[paulbates]

I have the same general problem as the main part of my house was built in 52. I do have neutrals everywhere, but the jboxes are a tight fit. I haven't tried z-wave yet but guessing it would be a no-go there as Insteon has to be "coerced" in there to fit, it looks like z-wave switches that have all of the comparable scene type features are bigger; and because they're metal not much signal is getting out. A good thing about the jboxes being metal, heat dissipation is not a problem. All of the old wire nuts have to be discarded.. and I switch to the push-in type connectors to save space and deal with very tight quarters. I am not willing to tear through wet plaster and other construction surgery to fix something that's not currently broken.

Paul  

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

Sometimes I wonder whether it is worth it.  I love my automation, but never had to go through what you describe.  If I did, I would be asking myself whether the effort makes me happier in life.  Of course, if one enjoys tearing out electrical boxes and running wire, the answer to that question might be different that it would be for someone like me.

Never mind.  I would probably do it also.

Insteon bulbs?

[Brian H]

52 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Insteon bulbs?

They could be an alternative. Too bad it looks like they are discontinued.

My house is similar or even worse. Except for a few new circuits added. Two wire Romex and no safety grounds at all. Real small electrical boxes you can hardly squeeze much into.

[Mustang65]

I have one Insteon bulb, but it only came in the equivalent of a 60 watt incandescent bulb (only size available). The Caseta Pro Switches look to have the same space issue as the Insteon and the Zwave are probably the same.

The original wall switch that I replaced awhile ago, unfortunately was not the same as the other older wall switch boxes, must have been replaced when the bathroom on the back side was redone. Based on that observation I purchased about 17 wall switches (1/2 price sale of course) which, if I do not redo the boxes will be useless to me.

The WiFi bulbs would do the trick, except the wife needs an ANALOG switching device in the wall to activate the light. Does not like phone aps. I would have to mount remotes at each switch location and that would not make it around here.

A lot to think about

[marcin]

whats about those?

 

https://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module

[Mustang65]

4 minutes ago, marcin said:

whats about those?

 

https://www.insteon.com/on-off-micro-module

They would have to be mounted in the ceiling and here in FL the temp in the attic gets really hot.

 

[Mustang65]

Well, give me a few minutes and I will come up with another approach. I am now thinking about using the "Old Work PVC Electrical boxes with the wall flanges for mounting". I can grind the nail heads off the existing box that holds it to the stud.  I am going to buy a box and try it on the office wall switch. I will drop down a new Romex cable so the box will have neutral and ground. That location is an easy access from the ceiling and is on an inside wall. Forget the outside walls as they are concrete block.

[lilyoyo1]

get extra deep wall boxes. Makes fitting switches a breeze

[mwester]

Those block walls -- don't forget about them!  A small sledge, and you'll have no problem getting to the junction boxes.

(Now, fixing up the exterior might be more of an issue, but if the significant other doesn't spend a lot of time on that side of the house, perhaps a rose bush or other shrubbery would conceal the patch!      Just kidding of course -- I once had a 1950's era georgian-style home, and had to refit a fair amount of the electrical when we redid the kitchen -- I swear it would have been easier to just tear through the exterior wall than it was to get through that blasted plaster-and-lathe, find anything to fasten the box to, and then patch it all up again...)

[Mustang65]

14 hours ago, mwester said:

Those block walls -- don't forget about them!  A small sledge, and you'll have no problem getting to the junction boxes.

(Now, fixing up the exterior might be more of an issue, but if the significant other doesn't spend a lot of time on that side of the house, perhaps a rose bush or other shrubbery would conceal the patch!      Just kidding of course -- I once had a 1950's era georgian-style home, and had to refit a fair amount of the electrical when we redid the kitchen -- I swear it would have been easier to just tear through the exterior wall than it was to get through that blasted plaster-and-lathe, find anything to fasten the box to, and then patch it all up again...)

I have a bunch of inside wall outlets in the outside concrete block walls that I am just about finished upgrading by adding ground to them.

What I did is drilled a hole through the electrical box, then drilled a hole through the concrete block wall. I then installed an PVC electrical box on the outside of the hole, with a weather protected cover. I ran a Romex cable into the interior box from the exterior. No exterior or interior patching required.

The inside outlets now have ground, and I also have the outside outlets (connected to a main GFCI outlet for power), all protected. Four more outlets and I will have that project totally completed. I originally just pushed a ground wire through, but decided to take it out and use Romex (Ground wire only used).

I did get an estimate from a local electrician and they wanted $400 for each outlet. No mention as to how there were going to get the ground down to the outlets.

[Mustang65]

Here is the first "Outside Wall" switch install. Eliminated the switch for the wall outlet. One down a bunch to go. Now I need to straighten the alarm keypad that one of the grand kids smacked. Amazing what a hammer and chisel can do.

 

[larryllix]

Very nice! I hope you took precautions necessary for asbestos, if there is any.

[Mustang65]

43 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Very nice! I hope you took precautions necessary for asbestos, if there is any.

Had the house tested when we were buying it and the results were no asbestos. Lucked out!

[lilyoyo1]

On 9/28/2019 at 3:52 PM, Mustang65 said:

Here is the first "Outside Wall" switch install. Eliminated the switch for the wall outlet. One down a bunch to go. Now I need to straighten the alarm keypad that one of the grand kids smacked. Amazing what a hammer and chisel can do.

 

Glad you went with screwless. They make the end result look so much more elegant. That's all I ever use.

[Mustang65]

34 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Glad you went with screwless. They make the end result look so much more elegant. That's all I ever use.

Thanks

This morning I did get to straighten the SimpliSafe key pad and slightly adjusted the wall switch a little to the left on top, still not perfectly level, but the not straight electrical box dictates how much I can adjust, without major wall surgery. This project should pass the PAR (Partner Acceptance Rating) when she returns home tomorrow night. I will give her a big glass of wine and that should make it look level.

Now working on installing the 2844-222 Motion Sensors (4) and writing some programs for them.

[larryllix]

32 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Glad you went with screwless. They make the end result look so much more elegant. That's all I ever use.

I find them too thick looking for the SwitcLinc. The Switchlinc could use some spacers behind it to bring the trim ring up flush with the cover similar to the other switch making it look like one moulded unit.

[TrojanHorse]

Nice job. If you decide to replace boxes I recommend Madison Electric boxes for many uses. If you’re replacing an existing box that’s on a stud, once it’s removed you can put this in and it’ll screw into the stud. The screws sometimes aren’t great so I’ll replace it with something with a torx head. These are all I use now for retrofit (if on a stud) and new construction. The depth adjustment is a nice feature for new construction. I just bought 10 to have on hand... amazon had em on sale...

 

Edit: note they make sizes up to 4 gang and multi gang boxes should come with low voltage dividers.

 

Madison Electric Products MSB1G One Gang Device Box with Depth Adjustable, Heavy Duty 42lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H8NUVQK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_WBvKDbGXVF035

 

 

 

 

 

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[Mustang65]

1 hour ago, TrojanHorse said:

Nice job. If you decide to replace boxes I recommend Madison Electric boxes for many uses. If you’re replacing an existing box that’s on a stud, once it’s removed you can put this in and it’ll screw into the stud. The screws sometimes aren’t great so I’ll replace it with something with a torx head. These are all I use now for retrofit (if on a stud) and new construction. The depth adjustment is a nice feature for new construction. I just bought 10 to have on hand... amazon had em on sale...

Madison Electric Products MSB1G One Gang Device Box with Depth Adjustable, Heavy Duty 42lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H8NUVQK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_WBvKDbGXVF035





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I was looking at the pictures and the extended plastic portions where the screws are located look like it may interfere with the back/sides of large Insteon switches. Have you installed any Insteon switches in these boxes.

Thanks

[TrojanHorse]

I was looking at the pictures and the extended plastic portions where the screws are located look like it may interfere with the back/sides of large Insteon switches. Have you installed any Insteon switches in these boxes. Thanks

 

 

Yes I’ve installed many in my home. Not sure exactly what you mean but the boxes are deep. The side mounting screws aren’t a problem, at least for recent versions of Insteon switches. Here’s a pic of a 2447d rev 8.2 in the box. As I look closely with a caliper and such it’s close but there’s room inside. If you try the boxes and like them otherwise but a switch doesn’t quite fit I suppose you could shave part of the plastic where the screw goes but I’ve never had to do that. I measure 7/8 inch to the peak of that plastic but keep in mind your switch doesn’t touch the side of the box and that bit of plastic that extends isn’t essential...

 

 

I like them mostly because the switch box is strong and gets a very solid connection to a stud. The NM cable clips are hard to work with though so loosen them up a bit so you don’t nick the wire when pulling it...

 

Edit: apologies. Tapatalk no longer friendly with photos?...

 

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[TrojanHorse]

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[TrojanHorse]

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[Mustang65]

7 hours ago, TrojanHorse said:

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Thanks TrojanHorse,

I just looked like their may have been an interference from those mounting parts. Ordering a bunch.

Thanks again for the pictures