Digital Electrical Breakers

[Mustang65]

For those that are interested in controlling your electrical circuit breakers.

Finally, new technology in this area. Sounds interesting. IS  there an ISY interface in the future????

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27557804/digital-circuit-breaker/

 

[Teken]

Appreciate the link to this new technology but after reading the entire article came away with more questions and concerns. I've been planning to install and deploy a smart service panel for several years but have been waiting for a couple of projects to be completed before doing so.

This article offers no hard stats or specifications besides claims of being able to do X vs Y.

One the major issues I have with such a new technology is how they will deal with large inrush current / act of God events such as lightning?!? As was stated in this article the major hurdle is thermo loss which translates to energy consumption. Like you, my primary goal is to reduce my energy consumption and impact on the world on a daily basis. I cant' say what the thermo loss equates to in terms of standby vampire draw but if its even remotely close to competitive systems already in the market.

One is looking at 5~25 watts of standby vampire draw 24-7-365 on existing systems!  

As always there is no mention how they quantify these statements which pushes the envelop of B.S. If thermo loss is their major barrier I expect this device to consume no less than 30~100 watts if not five times more.

Quote

“Instead of using mechanics to switch the power, we apply digital inputs," Kennedy told Popular Mechanics. “Now I have no moving parts. Now I have the ability to connect things like iPhones and iPads for remote power management, which increases safety and improves efficiency. I can set the distribution panel to a schedule so the flow of power is seamless, unlimited, and shifts between sources automatically. You literally wouldn’t notice. The lights wouldn’t even flicker.”

There is a huge difference between energy management vs energy monitoring  . . .  

They make no mention as to the front end / back end that will offer the same control and historic tracking as the ISY 994 IZ Series Controller / Brultech Green Eye Monitor (GEM) & Dash Box (DB).

Quote

When you consider the mechanical complications of switching between renewables and grid-centralized sources of power, the idea becomes even more powerful. Sometimes it’s flat-out impossible. Kennedy believes the static nature of existing power distribution systems is one of the reasons we haven’t seen widespread adoption of renewables at the residential level.

For a grid-connected solar home, for example, residents sometimes have to disconnect their solar input because traditional power systems (including the circuit breakers) aren’t advanced enough to properly manage multiple power sources that change.

Their claims about integrating with solar and the existing barriers to connect to renewable's are not only false but totally out of touch with reality. For the sake of argument lets ignore any kind of home brew solar PV system. All cUL / UL PV system has either outside (fully accessible) shut off switch. A grid tied system by default has *Island Protection* which means anytime there is an interruption in line power the PV system will turn off.

This is to insure the feeders are still not energized while linesmen are deployed.

For those who have a hybrid system which incorporates a battery pack a transfer switch is tied to the main service panel and automatically trips and and cuts back feeding to the POCO (Main Line) and falls back to the battery packs. Anyone who has a whole house generator can attest to this basic requirement and deployment in their emergency backup systems.

 

Quote

“Old school breakers simply can’t operate as fast as the flow of power,” says Kennedy. “When things go wrong in larger buildings, they go really wrong because you typically have a much bigger source feeding that demand.”

I have no clue what this guy is trying to sell but based on that statement just shake my head . . . 

Every building in North America that is in compliance with NEC / CEC code have been designed and spec'd to provide and sustain the rated power ~ period. This in no way addresses morons who try everyday who chain and plug in 999999999999 power bars thinking its OK. But, guess what someone besides the moron was looking out for said moron and that device is a called a *Breaker* 

Ideally if said device is correctly spec'd, made, and installed it should interrupt that (excessive over limit) current and trip! Keeping in mind the breaker was designed and built to protect the wiring not the human in this case but the causal effect is the same!

Regardless, assuming this isn't vaporware like so many other tech gadgets I've seen as of late I wish them great success. They named three of the big players but dollars to donuts this won't be seen in the consumer market anytime soon but intended for commercial / industrial. Then again, all three have their own smart panels developed and deployed now which doesn't bold well for Atom!

  

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, Teken said:

Appreciate the link to this new technology but after reading the entire article came away with more questions and concerns. I've been planning to install and deploy a smart service panel for several years but have been waiting for a couple of projects to be completed before doing so.

This article offers no hard stats or specifications besides claims of being able to do X vs Y.

One the major issues I have with such a new technology is how they will deal with large inrush current / act of God events such as lightning?!? As was stated in this article the major hurdle is thermo loss which translates to energy consumption. Like you, my primary goal is to reduce my energy consumption and impact on the world on a daily basis. I cant' say what the thermo loss equates to in terms of standby vampire draw but if its even remotely close to competitive systems already in the market.

One is looking at 5~25 watts of standby vampire draw 24-7-365 on existing systems!  

As always there is no mention how they quantify these statements which pushes the envelop of B.S. If thermo loss is their major barrier I expect this device to consume no less than 30~100 watts if not five times more.

There is a huge difference between energy management vs energy monitoring  . . .  

They make no mention as to the front end / back end that will offer the same control and historic tracking as the ISY 994 IZ Series Controller / Brultech Green Eye Monitor (GEM) & Dash Box (DB).

Their claims about integrating with solar and the existing barriers to connect to renewable's are not only false but totally out of touch with reality. For the sake of argument lets ignore any kind of home brew solar PV system. All cUL / UL PV system has either outside (fully accessible) shut off switch. A grid tied system by default has *Island Protection* which means anytime there is an interruption in line power the PV system will turn off.

This is to insure the feeders are still not energized while linesmen are deployed.

For those who have a hybrid system which incorporates a battery pack a transfer switch is tied to the main service panel and automatically trips and and cuts back feeding to the POCO (Main Line) and falls back to the battery packs. Anyone who has a whole house generator can attest to this basic requirement and deployment in their emergency backup systems.

 

I have no clue what this guy is trying to sell but based on that statement just shake my head . . . 

Every building in North America that is in compliance with NEC / CEC code have been designed and spec'd to provide and sustain the rated power ~ period. This in no way addresses morons who try everyday who chain and plug in 999999999999 power bars thinking its OK. But, guess what someone besides the moron was looking out for said moron and that device is a called a *Breaker* 

Ideally if said device is correctly spec'd, made, and installed it should interrupt that (excessive over limit) current and trip! Keeping in mind the breaker was designed and built to protect the wiring not the human in this case but the causal effect is the same!

Regardless, assuming this isn't vaporware like so many other tech gadgets I've seen as of late I wish them great success. They named three of the big players but dollars to donuts this won't be seen in the consumer market anytime soon but intended for commercial / industrial. Then again, all three have their own smart panels developed and deployed now which doesn't bold well for Atom!

  

Its been too long....How we've missed you!

I say, save a couple of thousand and turn off the lights. I still dont understand the whole need for energy management/monitoring. If I turn on a light its using power. So I turn it off. If I buy another big screen tv, I know the 82 in will probably use more energy than the 55in. If im that concerned, I should get a 42 in. Better yet, dont use a tv.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its been too long....How we've missed you!

I say, save a couple of thousand and turn off the lights. I still dont understand the whole need for energy management/monitoring. If I turn on a light its using power. So I turn it off. If I buy another big screen tv, I know the 82 in will probably use more energy than the 55in. If im that concerned, I should get a 42 in. Better yet, dont use a tv.

BTW: I metered my 42" and my 55" and my 75" and the 42 inch unit uses the most energy due to fluorescent lighting in the back vs selective LED lighting.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

BTW: I metered my 42" and my 55" and my 75" and the 42 inch unit uses the most energy due to fluorescent lighting in the back vs selective LED lighting.

Then you're not doing a fair comparison. If your 55 uses more than your 75 and both are led (from the same time period) that would be different. 

[larryllix]

18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Then you're not doing a fair comparison. If your 55 uses more than your 75 and both are led (from the same time period) that would be different. 

Huh? Fluorescent backlit TVs used more power than LED backlit TVs, and especially since selective section backlighting was not conceived in those times.
Your comment confuses me as I never mentioned a comparison of the 55 and 75 inch sets.

[lilyoyo1]

You are comparing 2 different technologies which is not a fair comparison. If your 55 and 75 are both the same technology then that would be a fairer comparison. I wasn't trying to leave a detailed statement covering every minute detail when I made the original comment. The details were implied as different technologies would have different results.

The general gist was the larger the set the more power used. If saving energetic was important go smaller.

[larryllix]

You mean they made those tiny 42" TVs with LED backlighting technology?
My 75' TV stills draw less than my 55" LED due to other energy saving developments.. Again, differing technologies every time a new TV model comes out.

Point taken. My 38" Trinitron took even more power, and it only paid me $1, and 4 years of advertising, to get two strong young men to carry it out at an awkward 168 lb.

[jec6613]

So, I could see this sort of breaker being useful in a datacenter with multiple utility sources and generator sources to manage, as well as battery rooms.  Transfer switches can melt, but if they can get these working there, then that would be very good.

For a homeowner?  No thanks, they may meet UL but they won't meet my local code that requires the lines be air gapped when I'm on a generator.  Sure I could put a relay on it as well, but then I might as well just use a standard breaker.  Plus, I have 240V 2-phase: not exactly as dangerous as 440V.

[simplextech]

Apparently the remote controlled circuit is "new"... Commercial buildings and installations have had this tech for years.  Recently I contacted Lyntec and got a quote for a relay panel and it wasn't horrible... not cheap but certainly doable. 

Here's a link for those interested:

https://lyntec.com/

 

[Teken]

On 1/17/2020 at 4:59 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Its been too long....How we've missed you!

I say, save a couple of thousand and turn off the lights. I still dont understand the whole need for energy management/monitoring. If I turn on a light its using power. So I turn it off. If I buy another big screen tv, I know the 82 in will probably use more energy than the 55in. If im that concerned, I should get a 42 in. Better yet, dont use a tv.

That is (Because) you're a true consumer! ?

I believe it's best expressed this way in my humble opinion. Commercial / Enterprise have and see the value in being able to monitor and control their electrical consumption as this directly translates to their annual costs. If you can save $5~25K simply by ToU (Time Of Use) or by insuring a more reliable infrastructure system due to load shedding companies do it. If there is one thing I know is true and that is anything that hits a person in the pocket book ~ it will make them react.

For consumers its a little different because energy monitoring as I've stated for years ~ isn't sexy! One only has to look outside this forum and glance out the window and ask yourself how many of your neighbors are doing any kind of Home Automation?

I can literally count on one hand of the people on my street that has home automation at scale. Now, if we simply ask how many have a GDO (Garage Door Opener) it's safe to state those who have a home and a garage 90% more than likely have one! This besides (The Clapper) has to be the lowest form of automation / remote control for the consumer. It's only with the advent and spread of Alexa / Google that voice control has nudged the market to adopted and purchase with more Home Automation systems. Which I have to tip my hat to those miserable so called controllers of the likes of Smartthings, Vera, Revolv, etc!

You make something Plug & Play and easy to interface to along with a splashy UI ~ It will sell and be adopted by the masses.

Now, with those of our brothers in America those who live in extremely high electrical rate states. One would think they too would see the benefit of Energy Monitoring / Energy Management?!?

Again not sexy and rarely offers any short term payback for the consumer.

One only needs to think about PV (Solar) or any type of renewable energy source which can directly help in reducing your monthly / annual bills. But, again this has a huge up front cost(s) and for the most part looks freaking ugly with panels all over your roof. Thank God for guys like Tesla who is pushing this area for solar shingles and is currently on 2.0 of their system where its easier to install, cheaper, and offers better long term reliability.

But, still costs an arm and a leg for the Average Joe!

I hope very much this company is successful in their (Smart Breaker) venture and perhaps in time this new tech will be field proven and be reasonable for all to adopt. I think I'm going to write into this company and pose the same questions & concerns and see what their reply is. I'll either be pleasantly surprised or more than likely be provided a none answer or more vaporware statements.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

That is (Because) you're a true consumer! ?

I believe it's best expressed this way in my humble opinion. Commercial / Enterprise have and see the value in being able to monitor and control their electrical consumption as this directly translates to their annual costs. If you can save $5~25K simply by ToU (Time Of Use) or by insuring a more reliable infrastructure system due to load shedding companies do it. If there is one thing I know is true and that is anything that hits a person in the pocket book ~ it will make them react.

For consumers its a little different because energy monitoring as I've stated for years ~ isn't sexy! One only has to look outside this forum and glance out the window and ask yourself how many of your neighbors are doing any kind of Home Automation?

I can literally count on one hand of the people on my street that has home automation at scale. Now, if we simply ask how many have a GDO (Garage Door Opener) it's safe to state those who have a home and a garage 90% more than likely have one! This besides (The Clapper) has to be the lowest form of automation / remote control for the consumer. It's only with the advent and spread of Alexa / Google that voice control has nudged the market to adopted and purchase with more Home Automation systems. Which I have to tip my hat to those miserable so called controllers of the likes of Smartthings, Vera, Revolv, etc!

You make something Plug & Play and easy to interface to along with a splashy UI ~ It will sell and be adopted by the masses.

Now, with those of our brothers in America those who live in extremely high electrical rate states. One would think they too would see the benefit of Energy Monitoring / Energy Management?!?

Again not sexy and rarely offers any short term payback for the consumer.

One only needs to think about PV (Solar) or any type of renewable energy source which can directly help in reducing your monthly / annual bills. But, again this has a huge up front cost(s) and for the most part looks freaking ugly with panels all over your roof. Thank God for guys like Tesla who is pushing this area for solar shingles and is currently on 2.0 of their system where its easier to install, cheaper, and offers better long term reliability.

But, still costs an arm and a leg for the Average Joe!

I hope very much this company is successful in their (Smart Breaker) venture and perhaps in time this new tech will be field proven and be reasonable for all to adopt. I think I'm going to write into this company and pose the same questions & concerns and see what their reply is. I'll either be pleasantly surprised or more than likely be provided a none answer or more vaporware statements.

I can see it at a commercial level (I don't do commercial) Just not residential for most cases. Even when we built our house we skipped solar. We never would have recouped our investment

[Mustang65]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

...............You make something Plug & Play and easy to interface to along with a splashy UI ~ It will sell and be adopted by the masses..............

 

I believe in one of my first posts on this forum I made mention of this. Rule of tumb... "If the wife can not get it to work/setup, it will never make it in the masses"

[LFMc]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

Thank God for guys like Tesla who is pushing this area for solar shingles and is currently on 2.0 of their system where its easier to install, cheaper, and offers better long term reliability.

And with Tesla 2.0 roof shingles, we don't get to see near as many roof fires on the local Walmarts....  (-:

29 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Now, if we simply ask how many have a GDO (Garage Door Opener) it's safe to state those who have a home and a garage 90% more than likely have one! This besides (The Clapper) has to be the lowest form of automation / remote control for the consumer.

Don't forget the TV remote control. Been around from the 60's saving not just energy, but brain cells by clicking the off button. But the "clapper" reference takes the cake. 

Lastly, "3000X faster than mechanical breakers"? Seriously? I want my breakers to slow down and wait to make sure it is a serious continual over load. I don't need any more false positives in my life. I am sure there are many "micro events" on most people's power system from in-rush currents that they don't want to trip their breaker. It is not amps that melt copper, it is amps over time. I learned from a real EE (electrical eng., not electronic), breakers protect wire, not equipment (or people as someone sort of mentioned earlier). GFI's protect people. 

But they are so cool looking. Makes me want to have a breaker panel in my living room.  

[Teken]

1 hour ago, LFMc said:

And with Tesla 2.0 roof shingles, we don't get to see near as many roof fires on the local Walmarts....  (-:

Don't forget the TV remote control. Been around from the 60's saving not just energy, but brain cells by clicking the off button. But the "clapper" reference takes the cake. 

Lastly, "3000X faster than mechanical breakers"? Seriously? I want my breakers to slow down and wait to make sure it is a serious continual over load. I don't need any more false positives in my life. I am sure there are many "micro events" on most people's power system from in-rush currents that they don't want to trip their breaker. It is not amps that melt copper, it is amps over time. I learned from a real EE (electrical eng., not electronic), breakers protect wire, not equipment (or people as someone sort of mentioned earlier). GFI's protect people. 

But they are so cool looking. Makes me want to have a breaker panel in my living room.  

Agreed, the breakers are sexy as hell . . . 

As noted above if we assume the basic smart breaker is X dollars. What will a AFCI / GFCI smart breaker cost?!? As an aside, sort of related for reference sake I have several different brands and types of SPD's in my home.

95% of those units consume an appreciable amount of energy which is a constant vampire draw on my home. Very old GFCI's I have tested consumed 2~3.75 watts whereas some newer surge alarm outlets consume <1.00 watt. The smart panels from Leviton / Eaton depending upon style and type consumed more than 1~3.25 watts. If we take the wattage at the lowest for a 50 breaker system that is 50 watts standby.

On the upper end (3.25 watts) that's 162.5 watts 24-7-365 . . .

I'll hazard to guess these solid state smart breakers will consume easily surpass 3.25+ watts and go out on a limb and say 5~8 watts which translates to:

5 X 50=250 watts / 8 X 50= 400 watts!    

[Teken]

1 hour ago, Mustang65 said:

I believe in one of my first posts on this forum I made mention of this. Rule of tumb... "If the wife can not get it to work/setup, it will never make it in the masses"

I truly believe the first company who understands how to create a UI / UX that offers basic to advanced modes will dominate. Basic mode for 90% of the use case and for the wife, kids, grandma. Advanced mode for the die hard and geeks who simply need more access, control, and capability like a CLI interface. Don't get me wrong no system should force any user to have to go into shell just to complete basic tasks.

It should be intended for large mass global changes or rarely used deep system changes.   

[DrLumen]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:57 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

I can see it at a commercial level (I don't do commercial) Just not residential for most cases. Even when we built our house we skipped solar. We never would have recouped our investment

I was wondering if you or your solar bidder took into account the tax credits that are available? They dropped this year to I think 25% from 30%.  Also, some utilities are/were giving incentives for installing solar. Between the two, they paid for half of our solar install. That brought the payoff down to about 9 years.  Also, while they warranty the panels to 25 or 30 years, it will not just all break. After that time it will still produce electricity (given it is not an inverter failure) so that is icing.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 4:59 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Its been too long....How we've missed you!

I say, save a couple of thousand and turn off the lights. I still dont understand the whole need for energy management/monitoring. If I turn on a light its using power. So I turn it off. If I buy another big screen tv, I know the 82 in will probably use more energy than the 55in. If im that concerned, I should get a 42 in. Better yet, dont use a tv.

You're right. Some usage is obvious. Some is 'hidden'. For example, water heaters intermittently run 24 hours a day to keep water at a spec'd temperature. But, do you really need hot water at 4:00 AM? It is nice to have it if needed but overall it is a waste of energy for those rare occasions. Once you become aware of all the things that are drawing power then you can better adjust your usage/schedule to save energy.

Another thing that may be obvious but I finally realized is that it is better for us to try to use energy during the day. We buy electricity at retail rates but only get paid wholesale rates when we over produce. So we use the dishwasher, clothes dryer, etc. during the day (hopefully sunny days). That allows us to use what the PV panels are producing rather than buy electricity at night.

Back on topic, the smart panels are cool but too expensive. I priced a leviton smart breaker from amazon was $122. Considering I would need about 40 makes them too expensive for a convenience. And those that are wealthy enough to throw them in their build without a care probably doesn't care about electricity rates anyway.

[lilyoyo1]

5 hours ago, DrLumen said:

I was wondering if you or your solar bidder took into account the tax credits that are available? They dropped this year to I think 25% from 30%.  Also, some utilities are/were giving incentives for installing solar. Between the two, they paid for half of our solar install. That brought the payoff down to about 9 years.  Also, while they warranty the panels to 25 or 30 years, it will not just all break. After that time it will still produce electricity (given it is not an inverter failure) so that is icing.

We took everything into account. Reality for us was that we wouldn't stay in the home long enough to warrant pissing what it costs. We focused on making thing as energy efficient as we could vs spending a larger sum to cut down on things.  Turns out it was a wise choice. Or most expensive bill was 200 bucks. Most avg about 150. Even without running ac/heat, the temperature inside doesnt go above 79-80 in the summer and below 68 in the winter. There are places where is worth the cost. However we I'm at, low utility rates and nice climate helps alot as well.

 

 

You're right. Some usage is obvious. Some is 'hidden'. For example, water heaters intermittently run 24 hours a day to keep water at a spec'd temperature. But, do you really need hot water at 4:00 AM? It is nice to have it if needed but overall it is a waste of energy for those rare occasions. Once you become aware of all the things that are drawing power then you can better adjust your usage/schedule to save energy.

I might not need hot water at 4am but I want it should it ever arises. The few dollars I could save just isn't worth it. Our hot water pump only runs during certain "in demand" times as we felt the cost was worth it vs wasting water waiting for hot water to arrive. For some stuff like that, I can see where it matters. But paying for something to tell you that your using energy when you can look and see what you're doing doesnt make sense to me. Your own example proves that. Do you really need to buy something to tell you not to heat water at 4am if that matters? 

Another thing that may be obvious but I finally realized is that it is better for us to try to use energy during the day. We buy electricity at retail rates but only get paid wholesale rates when we over produce. So we use the dishwasher, clothes dryer, etc. during the day (hopefully sunny days). That allows us to use what the PV panels are producing rather than buy electricity at night.

Back on topic, the smart panels are cool but too expensive. I priced a leviton smart breaker from amazon was $122. Considering I would need about 40 makes them too expensive for a convenience. And those that are wealthy enough to throw them in their build without a care probably doesn't care about electricity rates anyway.

 

[DrLumen]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:57 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

We took everything into account. Reality for us was that we wouldn't stay in the home long enough to warrant pissing what it costs. We focused on making thing as energy efficient as we could vs spending a larger sum to cut down on things.  Turns out it was a wise choice. Or most expensive bill was 200 bucks. Most avg about 150. Even without running ac/heat, the temperature inside doesnt go above 79-80 in the summer and below 68 in the winter. There are places where is worth the cost. However we I'm at, low utility rates and nice climate helps alot as well.

Energy efficiency is always prudent - especially if one intends to add solar. My house is relatively new with good insulation, double pane windows and the like. I also replaced the HVAC with a 18 seer heat pump and new, efficient appliances including a high efficiency, stainless tank water heater. Our electric bill ranges from -$10 to $40 depending on how much it rains and how much we splurge.

I was using the water heater as an example as it is a 'hidden' cost some people don't realize or remember. An out-of-sight kinda thing. A solar water heater is one I had to rethink as the cost  easily dwarfs any savings. There are some home made contraptions that are ~cheap but I seriously doubt the war dept. would go for those.

[Teken]

57 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

Energy efficiency is always prudent - especially if one intends to add solar. My house is relatively new with good insulation, double pane windows and the like. I also replaced the HVAC with a 18 seer heat pump and new, efficient appliances including a high efficiency, stainless tank water heater. Our electric bill ranges from -$10 to $40 depending on how much it rains and how much we splurge.

I was using the water heater as an example as it is a 'hidden' cost some people don't realize or remember. An out-of-sight kinda thing. A solar water heater is one I had to rethink as the cost  easily dwarfs any savings. There are some home made contraptions that are ~cheap but I seriously doubt the war dept. would go for those.

When designing our present home a solar water heater solution was reviewed. As you noted now and then the costs were just crazy expensive to install. Geo Thermal was also reviewed given living in the cold north it made sense over the long term. After doing a lot of research and asking those who had such units in place and doing some quick mental math it simply didn't pencil out for me.

I probably shouldn't have been surprised by the voodoo marketing, the lack luster warranty, and the 24.7.365 energy consumption for these systems - But, I was!

Back On Point: I'll be planning for my smart breaker system install in (I hope) late 2021. It didn't make any sense to do the job twice when the basement was going to be renovated along with installing AC and different branded NG generator. The benefits for me is having the ability to control all of the loads for ToU, Security, and Energy Management. It also allows me to reduce my reliance on Insteon / Other for lighting / hardware control as all of this is done at the service panel!

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, DrLumen said:

Energy efficiency is always prudent - especially if one intends to add solar. My house is relatively new with good insulation, double pane windows and the like. I also replaced the HVAC with a 18 seer heat pump and new, efficient appliances including a high efficiency, stainless tank water heater. Our electric bill ranges from -$10 to $40 depending on how much it rains and how much we splurge.

I was using the water heater as an example as it is a 'hidden' cost some people don't realize or remember. An out-of-sight kinda thing. A solar water heater is one I had to rethink as the cost  easily dwarfs any savings. There are some home made contraptions that are ~cheap but I seriously doubt the war dept. would go for those.

In Ontario Canada, the public is fighting going past 13 SEER for A/C units. Even the 13 SEER units will never pay for themselves in our lifetime or the lifetime of the compressor units.

Many of these things sound great and the politicians get sold on a save-the-world, do-gooder basis, by the manufacturer hitting on the ignorant politicians and public. After years of experience the public finally figures out the real cost of things and then the propaganda hype goes away as the crowd gets educated, many dollars later.

Now, back to work to  pay the interest on my outstanding  debt for a $55K solar PV installation. Saved me about $600 in energy bills over the last 15 years!! At 5% per annum the interest on the loan would have only cost $41,250.
   But...I had a lot of fun though!   Next inverter fire the panels gets trashed and I create another pile of garbage.

[lilyoyo1]

34 minutes ago, larryllix said:

In Ontario Canada, the public is fighting going past 13 SEER for A/C units. Even the 13 SEER units will never pay for themselves in our lifetime or the lifetime of the compressor units.

Many of these things sound great and the politicians get sold on a save-the-world, do-gooder basis, by the manufacturer hitting on the ignorant politicians and public. After years of experience the public finally figures out the real cost of things and then the propaganda hype goes away as the crowd gets educated, many dollars later.

Now, back to work to  pay the interest on my outstanding  debt for a $55K solar PV installation. Saved me about $600 in energy bills over the last 15 years!! At 5% per annum the interest on the loan would have only cost $41,250.
   But...I had a lot of fun though!   Next inverter fire the panels gets trashed and I create another pile of garbage.

That's where we were with solar. After credits and all we were still looking at 40k for the house. Spend 40k to save 100 bucks a month made absolutely no sense. We did go with a high seer unit. With the size of the house and weather here, we felt it would be worth the price to avoid sticker shock on our utility bills every month. 

[Teken]

23 minutes ago, larryllix said:

In Ontario Canada, the public is fighting going past 13 SEER for A/C units. Even the 13 SEER units will never pay for themselves in our lifetime or the lifetime of the compressor units.

Many of these things sound great and the politicians get sold on a save-the-world, do-gooder basis, by the manufacturer hitting on the ignorant politicians and public. After years of experience the public finally figures out the real cost of things and then the propaganda hype goes away as the crowd gets educated, many dollars later.

Now, back to work to  pay the interest on my outstanding  debt for a $55K solar PV installation. Saved me about $600 in energy bills over the last 15 years!! At 5% per annum the interest on the loan would have only cost $41,250.
   But...I had a lot of fun though!   Next inverter fire the panels gets trashed and I create another pile of garbage.

I believe a reasonable minimum should be set with respect technology as this ensures a even playing field and helps the consumer compare apple 2 apples. How does one define what is a reason I would hope those in their respective field could come up with a standard which the Government / Public could agree on. 

One example in our area was the mandate for a minimum of 90% efficient furnaces in all new homes and no lower models allowed to be sold. This was a perfect example of helping the consumer, world, and industry.

With respect to 13 SEER as being the minimum I am OK with that but if one was to say *Let's push it to 18 SEER* just because?!? One thing I hate about HVAC and the whole SEER rating is that unlike 99% of all other components.

Why these devices don't call out this AC unit consumes 2400 watts per hour??? 

[DrLumen]

I'm in Texas so the HVAC is a big part of the electric costs here. Probably not as much as you all in the winter but the seer rating probably doesn't apply much to a fan pushing air over a gas heat exchanger. I'm total electric here so the seer rating and compressor efficiency does make a difference. It also wasn't a large leap, dollar wise, from 16 seer to 18 seer. It was worthwhile to us over the long haul. Made quite a bit of difference considering the old one was about 12 seer.

Teken, as to load for a AC unit, they do label them at full load, which is worst case. The actual load is dependent on the ambient temp, relative humidity and the efficiency of the system as a whole - not just the condenser. Kinda hard to really say what the exact load will be as every install is a bit different and the load is constantly changing.

 

Back to the breakers: They are cool and I would eventually like to change to them but they are going to have to come down in price. Maybe if the breakers get down in the $40 range then I will consider it.

 

 

[Teken]

55 minutes ago, DrLumen said:

I'm in Texas so the HVAC is a big part of the electric costs here. Probably not as much as you all in the winter but the seer rating probably doesn't apply much to a fan pushing air over a gas heat exchanger. I'm total electric here so the seer rating and compressor efficiency does make a difference. It also wasn't a large leap, dollar wise, from 16 seer to 18 seer. It was worthwhile to us over the long haul. Made quite a bit of difference considering the old one was about 12 seer.

Teken, as to load for a AC unit, they do label them at full load, which is worst case. The actual load is dependent on the ambient temp, relative humidity and the efficiency of the system as a whole - not just the condenser. Kinda hard to really say what the exact load will be as every install is a bit different and the load is constantly changing.

 

Back to the breakers: They are cool and I would eventually like to change to them but they are going to have to come down in price. Maybe if the breakers get down in the $40 range then I will consider it.

 

 

So was the jump from 16 -> 18 SEER 5%, 10% more? Also, I believe the max wattage should be listed in the advert. The only time I've seen this is on the actual name plate which doesn't help me when I'm trying to shop around on line!