Blackbird Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Just wondering what everyone's opinion is about the future of Insteon. Do you think its fading away or should we not worry? Thanks
upstatemike Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 What is the source of your concern? Do you have some statistics to share that shows it is fading away? 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 I don't think they are going anywhere anytime soon nor do I care. I use them for light switches. I've probably said this 100 times, if they folded right now, my stuff would still work so why stress and worry about it. Enjoy what I have today and worry about the future tomorrow. I'll deal with them folding when the time comes to upgrade my home. The only thing it would mean is 1 less.option to consider 2
mwester Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Afraid? No. Are they disappearing? Well, my opinion is that they certainly seem to be on the decline. We've talked about the evidence, some here discount it, some don't. For me the key item comes down to the fact that the Insteon protocol has seen no progress, no revisions, nor even any hint of changes to address the fact that the power-line has become a very hostile place for devices that depend on a quiet zero-crossing, as does the current Insteon protocol. As we all modernize our home (LED lighting, switching power supplies, etc.) and add solar power, and add ever more electronics, the probability that Insteon will work in any given home will become less and less. While at present, security is largely rejected as a concern by members of this forum, the industry as a whole is being pressured to implement some level of security -- another area that would require an Insteon protocol revision. So if you net it all out, it sure does look like the long-term future of Insteon as a technology is in doubt. As some here point out (which I think is self-evident, but apparently not?), nothing is going to make your Insteon devices stop working if Insteon or Smart Home goes under. However, as consumers upgrade kitchens, replace lighting, and do other work around their homes, they'll find their Insteon network reliability ever decreasing, and I think Smart Home has done themselves a terrible disservice by not having a "Next Generation" product available for upgrade -- those dollars will go to some other manufacturer. It's not too late -- perhaps they've a super-secret development project that they're almost ready to reveal, with a plethora of new devices, and new protocol featuring immunity to the zero-crossing problems, de-coupling of the RF from the zero-crossing, security, and perhaps even a "bridge" device to bridge comms between the old and new protocols. One can dream. (Alas, I'm a pragmatist, and dreams don't do it for me -- so I'm migrating to another technology that works better in my home.)
io_guy Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Really not concerned about security for light switches. Door locks are S2 Z-Wave anyway. For me nothing beats Insteon for switches. They work and have a small form factor. I just pulled these from my house today to bring to the new house. Now if Inovelli would just make a dimmer the same depth as Insteon, I'd say good-bye. 1 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 I think everything should be put into perspective. Security is more important from a controller standpoint than locally at a switch or device. Due to the nature of zwave, security is more of a necessity than it is for insteon. Zwave is reliant on a controller whereas insteon is not. An insteon installation that runs without a controller is impossible to be hacked unless you are right outside the home. A person 3k miles away isn't hacking insteon devices. They are hacking the controller. With zwave, since a controller is needed for device control (many caveats here but most general setups and devices requires one) it is possible to hack the system. Even then, if we are real about it, a person still ends up hacking the controller rather than the devices unless they are close by All these IOT devices OTOH needs security since they are connected directly to the internet. Zwave's security is there to help people sleep at night while they leave their WiFi open or their phone number as the wifi password 1
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Insteon shows all the signs of a company that will suddenly disappear, and then everybody will be saying "The handwriting was on the wall" and "What did we expect? You could see it coming a kilometre away". However, I hope this isn't true, and my HA system will definitely continue to exist and function, if they do fold up. Perhaps the technology patent will be opened up, multiple sourced, and Insteon will become the new protocol used everywhere, without the restrictive SmartHome patent mentality. 1
Blackbird Posted October 20, 2019 Author Posted October 20, 2019 Bestbuy stopped selling it and I think Menards stopped selling it in the stores. Just wondering.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Blackbird said: Bestbuy stopped selling it and I think Menards stopped selling it in the stores. Just wondering. Both was years ago. Bestbuy still sells it online
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 IN Canada, HD and now Bestbuy stopped selling Insteon. Now Radio Shack (now The Source) dumped Insteon also. Bestbuy online has a third party selling some units but at $233 for a LampLinc, they won't be selling many. https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/insteon-2457d2-lamplinc-insteon-plug-in-lamp-dimmer-module-dual-band-2-pin/13360432 aartech.ca is about the only seller left to sell Insteon. We can blame the remote control freaks somewhat, as the WiFi devices take over, not requiring a hub.
apostolakisl Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Not worried. If SH screws this up, then the patents will all be sold to settle the bankruptcy and someone else will start producing them. And I have to say, security? I mean if someone is so hard up for something to do with their time that they drive up to radio range of my house and turn my lights on and off . . . I mean come on. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, larryllix said: We can blame the remote control freaks somewhat, as the WiFi devices take over, not requiring a hub. This is the biggest problem I think regardless of protocol choice. An uninformed public and inferior products. I remember bestbuy used to have zwave locks. Now the ones I see in stores are all geared towards nest or amazon. You have to buy zwave versions online Edited October 20, 2019 by lilyoyo1
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: Not worried. If SH screws this up, then the patents will all be sold to settle the bankruptcy and someone else will start producing them. And I have to say, security? I mean if someone is so hard up for something to do with their time that they drive up to radio range of my house and turn my lights on and off . . . I mean come on. Well DEF CON tried to show how Insteon is so insecure, and yet failed miserably on camera, attempting to show how easy it was.
apostolakisl Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 1 minute ago, larryllix said: Well DEF CON tried to show how Insteon is so insecure, and yet failed miserably on camera, attempting to show how easy it was. who is DEF CON?
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, larryllix said: Well DEF CON tried to show how Insteon is so insecure, and yet failed miserably on camera, attempting to show how easy it was. Miserably is an understatement. Controlled environment and failed big time.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: who is DEF CON? https://youtu.be/dy1LTQLmPtM
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: who is DEF CON? Hacker group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEF_CON with Peter Shipley Edited October 20, 2019 by larryllix
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Miserably is an understatement. Controlled environment and failed big time. He thought a WhitePaper was documentation and tried to ridicule SmartHome with his lack of understanding. Edited October 20, 2019 by larryllix
apostolakisl Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 He seems to think Insteon switches cost $70 when commenting about the firmware not being upgradeable. Maybe he is talking about a KPL? Can a Z-wave light switch be upgraded? What brands of remote control light switches do offer firmware upgrades? I really don't know. I do know that the 2 z-wave switches I own have no upgrade capacity. But again, who TF is going to park outside my house and try to hack my light switches? Seriously, how desperate for a purpose in life would you have to be? I guess some people use Insteon to control the GDO, so I suppose you could break into a house that way. But it would be a whole lot easier to just walk up to the garage door with a crow bar and pop it open (they pretty much all can be popped like that). That is why I have an alarm system. 2
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 I loved when he was asked how he knew and he said it just came to him from staring at the screen
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: He seems to think Insteon switches cost $70 when commenting about the firmware not being upgradeable. Maybe he is talking about a KPL? Can a Z-wave light switch be upgraded? What brands of remote control light switches do offer firmware upgrades? I really don't know. I do know that the 2 z-wave switches I own have no upgrade capacity. But again, who TF is going to park outside my house and try to hack my light switches? Seriously, how desperate for a purpose in life would you have to be? I guess some people use Insteon to control the GDO, so I suppose you could break into a house that way. But it would be a whole lot easier to just walk up to the garage door with a crow bar and pop it open (they pretty much all can be popped like that). That is why I have an alarm system. This is why I say security needs to be put into perspective. While anything CAN happen, what 1 must go through to make it happen makes it highly unlikely
Blackbird Posted October 20, 2019 Author Posted October 20, 2019 14 hours ago, larryllix said: IN Canada, HD and now Bestbuy stopped selling Insteon. Now Radio Shack (now The Source) dumped Insteon also. Bestbuy online has a third party selling some units but at $233 for a LampLinc, they won't be selling many. https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/insteon-2457d2-lamplinc-insteon-plug-in-lamp-dimmer-module-dual-band-2-pin/13360432 aartech.ca is about the only seller left to sell Insteon. We can blame the remote control freaks somewhat, as the WiFi devices take over, not requiring a hub. My local Coop hardware store was selling insteon for a couple years then stopped.
Mustang65 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) I believe that eventually the company that has the best "Plug and Play" Wi-Fi hub will force the others out of the market. I personally think Wi-Fi is the worst way to go, but it is the most inexpensive, also everyone has it in the house and IOT has everyone's ear. When they get an easy plug and play, you purchase a hub and you want to add a module or a switch sensor or what ever, you just tell the hub to update "NOW", and it will somehow go out and look for the new Wi-Fi thing that it can add. Ask you if this is what you wanted to add, add it, ask you to name it, test it with you and give you a "You have successfully added your "Kitchen Wall Switch", I just turned it on and off. Did you see it go on and off? Say yes or no. Now it's your turn to ask the system to turn the light on and off. Did it work? ...... Would you like to add another item?" Why do I think this? Well, as an example, my neighbor had a new HVAC unit installed with a Honeywell thermostat. A few years ago, while I was checking my media center's Wi-Fi router I saw his thermostat. His house is about 75' away form mine. One would think that the thermostat signal would not be strong enough to go that far. I walked over to his house, asked him how his new Honeywell thermostat was doing and showed him on my phone that it was not really protected. Needless to say he was shocked, the installer never informed him and so I walked him through setting up a new password on his thermostat. It still had the default user/PW. I have an Engenius Wi-Fi signal extender that captures signals for a good mile to mile and a half (LOS). I use it for my RV while dry-camping, and campgrounds that do not have great AP's. It is amazing what you see on there with no protection. I also use it for checking my Wi-Fi things. My wife, well if I pass on before her, I really feel sorry for my son (a techie), his phone will be ringing everyday. When she says she is going to call support, she calls my cell phone from the living room. I am considered "SUPPORT" and does not want anything to do with a Smart Home other than pushing the remote button or asking Alexa to do something. I cannot think of anyone else that wants to get involved with home Automation because of how difficult it is. So as I mentioned, the company with the best "Plug and Play" Wi-Fi hub, will take it all! Edited October 20, 2019 by Mustang65 1
larryllix Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) Totally agree. Ethernet protocol also gives the remote control fan crowd cloud access, that they are so convinced is the best thing since sliced bread. Https is a crock security and only takes the next level of hacker to intercept it for full access. "You're such a septic!" Um...I think you mean "sceptic'" "Oh, OK....! Tanks!" Edited October 20, 2019 by larryllix
lilyoyo1 Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, Mustang65 said: I believe that eventually the company that has the best "Plug and Play" Wi-Fi hub will force the others out of the market. I personally think Wi-Fi is the worst way to go, but it is the most inexpensive, also everyone has it in the house and IOT has everyone's ear. When they get an easy plug and play, you purchase a hub and you want to add a module or a switch sensor or what ever, you just tell the hub to update "NOW", and it will somehow go out and look for the new Wi-Fi thing that it can add. Ask you if this is what you wanted to add, add it, ask you to name it, test it with you and give you a "You have successfully added your "Kitchen Wall Switch", I just turned it on and off. Did you see it go on and off? Say yes or no. Now it's your turn to ask the system to turn the light on and off. Did it work? ...... Would you like to add another item?" Why do I think this? Well, as an example, my neighbor had a new HVAC unit installed with a Honeywell thermostat. A few years ago, while I was checking my media center's Wi-Fi router I saw his thermostat. His house is about 75' away form mine. One would think that the thermostat signal would not be strong enough to go that far. I walked over to his house, asked him how his new Honeywell thermostat was doing and showed him on my phone that it was not really protected. Needless to say he was shocked, the installer never informed him and so I walked him through setting up a new password on his thermostat. It still had the default user/PW. I have an Engenius Wi-Fi signal extender that captures signals for a good mile to mile and a half (LOS). I use it for my RV while dry-camping, and campgrounds that do not have great AP's. It is amazing what you see on there with no protection. I also use it for checking my Wi-Fi things. My wife, well if I pass on before her, I really feel sorry for my son (a techie), his phone will be ringing everyday. When she says she is going to call support, she calls my cell phone from the living room. I am considered "SUPPORT" and does not want anything to do with a Smart Home other than pushing the remote button or asking Alexa to do something. I cannot think of anyone else that wants to get involved with home Automation because of how difficult it is. So as I mentioned, the company with the best "Plug and Play" Wi-Fi hub, will take it all! For me, automation and control are 2 different things. The avg person wants automation but either doesn't have the finances, capability, or desires to make it happen. They are happy with "good enough" which is what the "control" crowd basically falls into. I don't think this crowd is hub based regardless of how simple things are. That's why when I see people talking about the "only way the isy will go mainstream or be taken seriously" makes me laugh. Mainstream doesn't want a hub at all. The good enough crowd just needs a phone and assistant connected device. A couple of timers, voice control, and the ability to say "look what I can do" as they pull out their phone. 1
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