8 button keypad and isy944 scenes

[thrang]

Hi - just starting adding a lot more Insteon switching and keypads to my home and have a few issues / questions:

In my kitchen, I have 4 multi-way light circuits. I installed Insteon dimmer switches on all, and an 8 button keypad for one of the multi-way (connected to the load/main)

I then created 4 scenes for each multi-way group, adding the appropriate switches to each scene (all as controllers) so they all function physically as expected, turning on and off and dimming their respective loads.

My next step was to create three additional scenes for these 4 light groups: Button B would be LIGHTS BRIGHT, Button C would be LIGHTS DIM, and Button C would be ALL LIGHTS OFF.

I then created new scenes for these scenarios, adding the appropriate keypad button as a Controller and the switches as Responders (I had to add all the switches for each circuit, not just one, for this to  work... if this is an issue I don’t know...). So for example, LIGHTS BRIGHT has Button B as a controllers, and all the multi-way switches as responder in the scene set to the appropriate dim level (a question in this later).

The buttons work, sort of. From an all off state, if I press Button B, the lights ramp as expected. When I then press Button C, the light all turn off. If I press Button C again, they ramp up correctly to the dim level for C. If I press B, they go off instead of ramping up to full brightness. Pressing B again works. My expectation is they they would simply slide their ramp levels according the scenes settings, but it is toggling off on the first press.

Also, the keypad light are not behaving as I hoped. If I press B, C is also illuminated, and vice versa. If B was the last active scene and I press it again, the lights turn off but the C light remains on. And vice versa.

so I’d like to it be each button is a discrete function, with no on off toggling. And for the lights to reflect which is the active scene, not if one or more loads are on.

My tangential question from earlier: in scene, there are two places to set on levels and ramp time - when clicking on the scene name or when clicking on a controller wishing the scene...what is the difference between the two interface locations to set the on level and ramp time. For that matter there is a third location where these settings can be set - not in the scene, but the primaet entry for the controller device itself.

sorry for the length but wanted to try and be as clear as possible. Thanks

[Bumbershoot]

9 hours ago, thrang said:

The buttons work, sort of. From an all off state, if I press Button B, the lights ramp as expected. When I then press Button C, the light all turn off. If I press Button C again, they ramp up correctly to the dim level for C. If I press B, they go off instead of ramping up to full brightness. Pressing B again works. My expectation is they they would simply slide their ramp levels according the scenes settings, but it is toggling off on the first press.

Have you tried adjusting the toggle mode of the affected buttons?  Maybe switching those buttons to "Non-Toggle [On]" might make the difference.  Experiment a bit, and see if you can get your desired results.

 

9 hours ago, thrang said:

Also, the keypad light are not behaving as I hoped. If I press B, C is also illuminated, and vice versa. If B was the last active scene and I press it again, the lights turn off but the C light remains on. And vice versa.

so I’d like to it be each button is a discrete function, with no on off toggling. And for the lights to reflect which is the active scene, not if one or more loads are on.

I think you need to put the buttons that you'd like to have the backlight turn off as "Responders" to the scene you're activating, and set their "On Level" to "Off" (you set that value by clicking on the scene, then selecting the appropriate "Responder" and setting the value).

 

9 hours ago, thrang said:

My tangential question from earlier: in scene, there are two places to set on levels and ramp time - when clicking on the scene name or when clicking on a controller wishing the scene...what is the difference between the two interface locations to set the on level and ramp time. For that matter there is a third location where these settings can be set - not in the scene, but the primaet entry for the controller device itself.

I believe you should set them all, so as to not get unpredictable results.  This is a feature, not a bug.  Scenes can respond differently depending upon which device activates it, or if it's activated logically with a program or from the AC.

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, thrang said:

Hi - just starting adding a lot more Insteon switching and keypads to my home and have a few issues / questions:

In my kitchen, I have 4 multi-way light circuits. I installed Insteon dimmer switches on all, and an 8 button keypad for one of the multi-way (connected to the load/main)

I then created 4 scenes for each multi-way group, adding the appropriate switches to each scene (all as controllers) so they all function physically as expected, turning on and off and dimming their respective loads.

My next step was to create three additional scenes for these 4 light groups: Button B would be LIGHTS BRIGHT, Button C would be LIGHTS DIM, and Button C would be ALL LIGHTS OFF.

I then created new scenes for these scenarios, adding the appropriate keypad button as a Controller and the switches as Responders (I had to add all the switches for each circuit, not just one, for this to  work... if this is an issue I don’t know...). So for example, LIGHTS BRIGHT has Button B as a controllers, and all the multi-way switches as responder in the scene set to the appropriate dim level (a question in this later).

The buttons work, sort of. From an all off state, if I press Button B, the lights ramp as expected. When I then press Button C, the light all turn off. If I press Button C again, they ramp up correctly to the dim level for C. If I press B, they go off instead of ramping up to full brightness. Pressing B again works. My expectation is they they would simply slide their ramp levels according the scenes settings, but it is toggling off on the first press.

Also, the keypad light are not behaving as I hoped. If I press B, C is also illuminated, and vice versa. If B was the last active scene and I press it again, the lights turn off but the C light remains on. And vice versa.

so I’d like to it be each button is a discrete function, with no on off toggling. And for the lights to reflect which is the active scene, not if one or more loads are on.

My tangential question from earlier: in scene, there are two places to set on levels and ramp time - when clicking on the scene name or when clicking on a controller wishing the scene...what is the difference between the two interface locations to set the on level and ramp time. For that matter there is a third location where these settings can be set - not in the scene, but the primaet entry for the controller device itself.

sorry for the length but wanted to try and be as clear as possible. Thanks

The lights turn off because your button is still on when you pressed another button on the kpl. Add the other kpl buttons to all of your scenes as responders set to off and it will fix all of your problems

Seeing your devices in the controller sets them only for the controller. Seeing them in the scene will set them when controlled by the isy directly (via programs) or apps, voice assistants, etc

[thrang]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The lights turn off because your button is still on when you pressed another button on the kpl. Add the other kpl buttons to all of your scenes as responders set to off and it will fix all of your problems

Seeing your devices in the controller sets them only for the controller. Seeing them in the scene will set them when controlled by the isy directly (via programs) or apps, voice assistants, etc

Hi - thanks - do you mean setting it off here?: (KITCHEN BRIGHT is Button B; I added Button C and set to OFF in the scene settings

 

 

 

and thanks bumbershoot as well...

I'll try this if my understanding is correct....

[thrang]

1 hour ago, Bumbershoot said:

"My tangential question from earlier: in scene, there are two places to set on levels and ramp time - when clicking on the scene name or when clicking on a controller wishing the scene...what is the difference between the two interface locations to set the on level and ramp time. For that matter there is a third location where these settings can be set - not in the scene, but the primary entry for the controller device itself."

I believe you should set them all, so as to not get unpredictable results.  This is a feature, not a bug.  Scenes can respond differently depending upon which device activates it, or if it's activated logically with a program or from the AC.

Thanks - what is the logic to what settings are used when?

These are the three areas I see where the settings can be changed: the scene itself, the device within the scene, and the device in the master ISY list... 

[thrang]

Hmmmm.... things have gotten wacky - when I add the other keypad buttons (set to off in the Scene settings) to an active scene button, the behavior is odd.

When I press button B for example, it lights up as well as C (which is set to OFF per my screen shot earlier). Pressing C does not change to that scene, but turns the lights off as well as both buttons (In Button C, the scene settings are set to turn Button B off as guided here)

KITCHEN BRIGHT is Button B, and KITCHING EATING is Button C

 

[lilyoyo1]

27 minutes ago, thrang said:

Hi - thanks - do you mean setting it off here?: (KITCHEN BRIGHT is Button B; I added Button C and set to OFF in the scene settings

 

 

 

and thanks bumbershoot as well...

I'll try this if my understanding is correct....

That is correct. You'll do the same for button C. That way when either is turned on, the other is turned off. Make sure you update the controller too

[Bumbershoot]

22 minutes ago, thrang said:

Hmmmm.... things have gotten wacky - when I add the other keypad buttons (set to off in the Scene settings) to an active scene button, the behavior is odd.

When I press button B for example, it lights up as well as C (which is set to OFF per my screen shot earlier). Pressing C does not change to that scene, but turns the lights off as well as both buttons (In Button C, the scene settings are set to turn Button B off as guided here)

KITCHEN BRIGHT is Button B, and KITCHING EATING is Button C

 

Have you changed the scene controllers to reflect what you want?  Examples, the first screenshot is of the scene itself.  The second screenshot is of the keypad key that's the controller of the scene.  There are four keypad buttons in this scene (the names prefixed with kpl...)  The only controller in this scene is kplLivingRoomLights.  You can have multiple controllers in a scene (or none), and you'll have to change the settings for each controller in the scene.

 

[thrang]

6 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Have you changed the scene controllers to reflect what you want?  Examples, the first screenshot is of the scene itself.  The second screenshot is of the keypad key that's the controller of the scene.  There are four keypad buttons in this scene (the names prefixed with kpl...)

 

I did not - I will try this...

Question (as Dwight Schrute might ask) Does it NEED to be set in both places, and is there some logic I am missing why? As I get into more programming, ISY is a "curious" beast to say the least....

 

UPDATE - this worked, thanks! So I need to set in both places (the scene, and the button controller itself, or would the button controller in the scene suffice?)

[Bumbershoot]

2 minutes ago, thrang said:

I did not - I will try this...

Question (as Dwight Schrute might ask) Does it NEED to be set in both places, and is there some logic I am missing why? As I get into more programming, ISY is a "curious" beast to say the least....

If you want completely predictable results, correct values need to be set at every controller in the scene and at the scene level itself.  Yes, it's a PITA, but that's the price of flexibility.

[Bumbershoot]

4 minutes ago, thrang said:

UPDATE - this worked, thanks! So I need to set in both places (the scene, and the button controller itself, or would the button controller in the scene suffice?)

Glad it worked.  You need to set it at every point that the scene could be invoked (controlled).  There are multiple ways to get into a scene, and you may want differing device levels depending on how you invoke it.  Like I said, it's very flexible and confusing, but very powerful.

[thrang]

Just now, Bumbershoot said:

Glad it worked.  You need to set it at every point that the scene could be invoked (controlled).  There are multiple ways to get into a scene, and you may want differing device levels depending on how you invoke it.  Like I said, it's very flexible and confusing, but very powerful.

Functionally understood, conceptually perplexing..!

I would only understand invoking the scene from the button or a program, but I presume you are referring to invoking via software control as well...

So to create my ALL OFF button, I would add all (multi-way) switches to the scene as responder for that designated button, set them all to off in the Scene list, and then OFF in the individual switch settings in the scene? Yeesh... ok, lets see how long I keep this up. The irony for the amount of manual work for automation is not lost on me...

[Bumbershoot]

9 minutes ago, thrang said:

I would only understand invoking the scene from the button or a program, but I presume you are referring to invoking via software control as well...

You bet.  Example: I have a scene that turns everything off.  I usually press a button upon leaving the house (scene controller), but at night after I've gotten into bed, I use Alexa to run the scene (not using any controller device, but invoking the scene logically).

9 minutes ago, thrang said:

So to create my ALL OFF button, I would add all (multi-way) switches to the scene as responder for that designated button, set them all to off in the Scene list, and then OFF in the individual switch settings in the scene? Yeesh... ok, lets see how long I keep this up. The irony for the amount of manual work for automation is not lost on me...

You set the responder values at the scene level, then you set all the responder values again in the scene controller level.  Depending on how many scene controllers you have in the scene, this could take a while.  Tedious, but once you're done, you're done.

EDIT:

and then OFF in the individual switch settings in the scene? Yeesh.

No, set the individual device levels from the scene controller: click on the scene controller, and all the responders will appear in the window to the right in the AC.  Set the individual values there.  These setting are subsidiary to the scene controller.

Controller --> responder value
                        responder value
                        responder value

Controller --> responder value
                        responder value
 etc., etc., etc.

[lilyoyo1]

16 minutes ago, thrang said:

Functionally understood, conceptually perplexing..!

I would only understand invoking the scene from the button or a program, but I presume you are referring to invoking via software control as well...

So to create my ALL OFF button, I would add all (multi-way) switches to the scene as responder for that designated button, set them all to off in the Scene list, and then OFF in the individual switch settings in the scene? Yeesh... ok, lets see how long I keep this up. The irony for the amount of manual work for automation is not lost on me...

When you say multi-way, are you referring to a 3 or 4way? If so, all devices should be controllers in that scenario. 

For your all off, all devices would be added as responders and the controlling device as the controller.

What I do is add the responders to the scene first, configure them, and then add the controllers. That way I only have to do it once

[thrang]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

When you say multi-way, are you referring to a 3 or 4way? If so, all devices should be controllers in that scenario. 

Yes I have three-way and more in several areas of the home - so I've added all multi-way switches to a scene and am setting the same values for each

Thanks

[Bumbershoot]

15 minutes ago, thrang said:

Functionally understood, conceptually perplexing..!

Take heart, you're not the first person to find this obscure, and you're certain not to be the last.

[thrang]

19 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

 

and then OFF in the individual switch settings in the scene? Yeesh.

No, set the individual device levels from the scene controller: click on the scene controller, and all the responders will appear in the window to the right in the AC.  Set the individual values there.  These setting are subsidiary to the scene controller.

Controller --> responder value
                        responder value
                        responder value

Controller --> responder value
                        responder value
 etc., etc., etc.

So in my example, click on scene controller (i.e. Keypad B ), and then set the OFF values for each responder (switch instance)

So when are the Scene settings values invoked (ie clicking on the scene name and then editing the responder values there?)

 

Thanks

[Bumbershoot]

9 minutes ago, thrang said:

So in my example, click on scene controller (i.e. Keypad B ), and then set the OFF values for each responder (switch instance)

So when are the Scene settings values invoked (ie clicking on the scene name and then editing the responder values there?)

 

Thanks

Right where you are.  In your screenshot, you've selected the scene "Kitchen Bright".  Within that scene, you've selected the device "Kitchen Keypad Island C", and set the "On Level" of that device to "Off".  Select each device in that scene, and set it appropriately (such as "Kitchen 45 Spots 2", and set the "On Level" and "Ramp Rate" -- currently set to "100% in 2.0 seconds").

EDIT: From this top level in the scene, you need to set all the subsidiary device levels (everything included in the pane on the right).

[thrang]

8 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Right where you are.  In your screenshot, you've selected the scene "Kitchen Bright".  Within that scene, you've the device "Kitchen Keypad Island C", and set the "On Level" of that device to "Off".  Select each device in that scene, and set it appropriately (such as "Kitchen 45 Spots 2", and set the "On Level" and "Ramp Rate" -- currently set to "100% in 2.0 seconds").

Thank you but getting a bit confused again... I guess what's confusing is to the set to ramp and on level for an OFF scene, you're saying I only need to set them in the main scene settings? Not the controller for the scene (Button B ) Because to set the other buttons to OFF in the earlier issue, I had to also click on the Contoller (Button B ) and set the unused buttons off there; doing so in the scene setting was not sufficient.

Thanks for hanging with me on this..

[Bumbershoot]

4 minutes ago, thrang said:

Thank you but getting a but confused again... I guess what's confusing is to the set to ramp and on level for an OFF scene, you're saying I only need to set them in the main scene settings? Not the controller for the scene (Button B ) Because to set the other buttons to OFF in the earlier issues, I had to also click on the Contoller (Button B ) and set the unused buttons off there; doin so in the scene setting was not sufficient.

Thanks for hanging with me on this..

If you never set the off levels in the main scene settings, then you might bet unexpected results of you call the scene in a program.  If you've set them in the controller settings, then things should work as desired when you press the controller button (assuming the controller is a button).

There are no global settings for a scene that will apply to both the scene and all its controllers (though that might make things easier).

[thrang]

Just now, Bumbershoot said:

If you never set the off levels in the main scene settings, then you might bet unexpected results of you call the scene in a program.  If you've set them in the controller settings, then things should work as desired when you press the controller button (assuming the controller is a button).

There are no global settings for a scene that will apply to both the scene and all its controllers (though that might make things easier).

So better to say set the same in both places, correct. That's what I came away with until you indicated no, I didn't t need to set the values in both places, just the scene controller... at leasts that's how I read that post...

Thanks very much

[Bumbershoot]

Just now, thrang said:

So better to say set the same in both places, correct.

Yes.  Sorry if I confused you.

[thrang]

11 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Yes.  Sorry if I confused you.

No worries! Too bad UDI doesn’t work on improving the programming interface to make some of this clearer

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, thrang said:

No worries! Too bad UDI doesn’t work on improving the programming interface to make some of this clearer

That's a personal thing there. Whats bad for some is great for others. 

While there's alot to learn, simplifying things also means not being able to do as much customization. Unfortunately, the options and difficulties are both a blessing and a curse. As you delve deeper into things you'll grow to appreciate how things are

[thrang]

6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's a personal thing there. Where bad for some odd great for others. 

While there's alot to learn, simplifying things also means not being able to do as much customization. Unfortunately, the options and difficulties are both a blessing and a curse. As you delve deeper into things you'll grow to appreciate how things are

I can appreciate this, thanks - but, for example, I still dont fully understand the difference between the Scene settings vs the individual device settings within the scene. Right now, I'm setting both identically, but not sure why.

Thanks