glacier991 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) I recently purchased a wine refrigerator. I did a lot of homework and discovered that by in large the customer satisfaction for most all of these was very low, almost across the board. Common failure? Usually early death of the unit. I finally purchased one, but came to the conclusion that a lot of failures were likely related to failure to allow adequate venting for a built in application. I am planning to build mine into a kitchen island and thought I might be able to improve my odds with some supplemental air cooling. What I would like to do is to have my auxiliary fan(s) come on whenever the refrigerator compressor is running. I realize I could probably hack into the refrigerator itself, but would prefer to avoid that. Is there some easy way to trigger the fan using a Z wave device to signal ISY when it senses the refrigerator is using energy (e.g. The compressor running, not some smaller draw for lighting etc)? Thanks for any ideas guys. Chris Edited December 10, 2019 by glacier991 Clarity
lilyoyo1 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Any zwave device that has energy monitoring will do that such as the aeotec smart switch 6. As long as the fan is controlled by a device connected to the isy it would work. One thing to keep in mind is you may need additional devices nearby depending on your zwave network Edited December 10, 2019 by lilyoyo1
glacier991 Posted December 10, 2019 Author Posted December 10, 2019 Is the Aeotec smart switch able to be used in a program using the amount of current draw as a trigger? In other words I want to ignore parasitic or other small draws and just trigger off the kind of larger draw that the compressor would create. BTW thanks for your response. You are always very kind and helpful! Chris
PhanTomiZ Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 Yes. You specify a range of wattages. With a little experimenting you'll get the exact power consumption. Have the program start and stop the fan when its in the range. I use this sensing of ranges to notify me when my dehumidifier needs emptying. A range for off, a range for fan only and a range for compressor.
glacier991 Posted December 10, 2019 Author Posted December 10, 2019 Perfect. Sounds like I have my solution. Appreciate the assistance. Chris
glacier991 Posted December 19, 2019 Author Posted December 19, 2019 Well I scrounged around and came up a NEO Coolcam Power Plug in my toybox. I plugged the little wine fridge into it, and discovered that on startup it ran at .88 amps. Then after a short while it drops into a lower power mode that draws only .53 amps. When "off" there is a small parasitic draw of .03 amps. So far so good. I was able to come up with an old X-10 appliance module, and set up a program that whenever the Power Plug sees over .4 amp, it triggers the appliance module, into which I plug the fan (s). Works great. Then I decided I would like to have the fans run for some short period of time AFTER the refrigerator has shut off - say 5 to 10 minutes. I am having difficulty programming this. I wrote an "Off" program where the If statement is power plug current is less than .3amp, Then wait 10 minutes, and then turn off fans. The actual fans however turn off as soon as the fridge does. Anyone see my mistake here or have a way to accomplish my goal ? Thanks. Chris
hart2hart Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Do you have any else branch in the program that turns the fan on that is turning it off?
glacier991 Posted December 19, 2019 Author Posted December 19, 2019 No. One program that turns it on as a then command, based on the current draw. I initially had an else command that did that, until I got my idea for an extended run and removed that else command. I then created my 2nd program to turn it off based of an If condition of the Power level dropping below by lower "off" threshold. Could there be some ghost residual of earlier else command that lurking about?
TomL Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Probably best if you could post the programs to be looked at.
glacier991 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Posted December 20, 2019 Here is the program that turns the fans ON when the refrigerator comes on: Program Content for Wine Fridge Fans ON IF 'Power Plug Energy Meter' current current => .50 AMP THEN Set 'Wine Refrigerator Fans" - ON Wait 30 seconds Send X10 'O1/ON (3)' ELSE - No Actions - This is the program to turn the fans off: Program Content for Wine Fridge Fans OFF IF 'Power Plug Energy Meter' current current is <= .30 AMP THEN Wait 10 minutes Turn Wine Fridge Fans OFF ELSE - No Actions - In case anyone asks, the double "ON" commands for fan turn on is a holdover from my X10 days. I found it to be a good practice to double on and off commands to overcome line collision issues and insure more reliable operation. As I was using an X10 device, I followed that for the ON command... I initially omitted it on the off command, as I was in a hurry and just trying to see if the whole idea here worked ( of course it did not).
Mustang65 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 Are the fans 110VAC? If so, why not just hook the fans AC power leads to the fridge's compressor's 110VAC power leads. The fans will automatically come on when the compressor gets 110VAC. One less thing to go wrong.
glacier991 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Posted December 20, 2019 I don't want to hack the refrigerator. The system works just fine to operate the fans in synch with the compressor running now. That is not the problem. Getting the fans to run for an additional 10 minutes after the compressor shuts off is the problem presented.
larryllix Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 3 hours ago, glacier991 said: I don't want to hack the refrigerator. The system works just fine to operate the fans in synch with the compressor running now. That is not the problem. Getting the fans to run for an additional 10 minutes after the compressor shuts off is the problem presented. Just lengthen the Wait time in the Off program.
glacier991 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Posted December 20, 2019 It is already 10 minutes and the fans shut off when the compressor shuts off. Not sure I under how lengthening the wait time will help?
larryllix Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, glacier991 said: It is already 10 minutes and the fans shut off when the compressor shuts off. Not sure I under how lengthening the wait time will help? If you didn't hack the refrigerator, what is your program doing?
lilyoyo1 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 5 hours ago, larryllix said: If you didn't hack the refrigerator, what is your program doing? I wouldn't call that hacking the fridge since nothing was done directly to the fridge. The fan was added externally to how sir from the enclosure not built into the fridge. Nothing he has done can be seen by the manufacturer nor can it be used to deny a warranty claim
lilyoyo1 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Mustang65 said: Are the fans 110VAC? If so, why not just hook the fans AC power leads to the fridge's compressor's 110VAC power leads. The fans will automatically come on when the compressor gets 110VAC. One less thing to go wrong. This wouldn't work anyway as he wants the fans to stay on after the compressor turns off
lilyoyo1 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 10 hours ago, glacier991 said: Here is the program that turns the fans ON when the refrigerator comes on: Program Content for Wine Fridge Fans ON IF 'Power Plug Energy Meter' current current => .50 AMP THEN Set 'Wine Refrigerator Fans" - ON Wait 30 seconds Send X10 'O1/ON (3)' ELSE - No Actions - This is the program to turn the fans off: Program Content for Wine Fridge Fans OFF IF 'Power Plug Energy Meter' current current is <= .30 AMP THEN Wait 10 minutes Turn Wine Fridge Fans OFF ELSE - No Actions - In case anyone asks, the double "ON" commands for fan turn on is a holdover from my X10 days. I found it to be a good practice to double on and off commands to overcome line collision issues and insure more reliable operation. As I was using an X10 device, I followed that for the ON command... I initially omitted it on the off command, as I was in a hurry and just trying to see if the whole idea here worked ( of course it did not). How long does the compressor run for when it kicks on? While what you have should work, I'm wondering if the off program is technically running already prior to the compressor turning off so the wait is already running while on. Since you're using x10 I don't believe there is status like you would have if you used insteon or zwave. My next guess would be with using x10. The off cmamd is simply sent from the main unit when it powers down. You can test for this by disabling your off program to see what happens.
oberkc Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 I certainly see nothing in the two programs that would cause the fan to shut off immediately (rather than waiting 10 minutes). Are you able to monitor current (as reported to ISY) in near real time to confirm that shutdown occurs immediately as current reaches lower threshold? The only thing that comes to mind is another program or scene somewhere that would cause this.
larryllix Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, oberkc said: I certainly see nothing in the two programs that would cause the fan to shut off immediately (rather than waiting 10 minutes). Are you able to monitor current (as reported to ISY) in near real time to confirm that shutdown occurs immediately as current reaches lower threshold? The only thing that comes to mind is another program or scene somewhere that would cause this. Agreed, there is nothing in his program that will turn off the fan immediately. I suggest to do an ISY program search for the fan device to find another forgotten program turning off the fans. Since it X10 you may need to use the "Raw Data" option. Edited December 20, 2019 by larryllix
apostolakisl Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) That program should do as you expect, so there is something else going on. I suppose you could delete and recreate them. You could also add some indicators both before and after the wait, like have it send you an email or chirp some switches to track what is happening when. BUT more importantly, the 10 minute extra run time is not a good idea. It is not helping and may even slightly be hurting your reliability. If running the fan after the compressor turned off was a good thing, then it would already do that. You will notice that even the most expensive, high-end, fancy appliances/AC/anything with a compressor, does not run the fans on the condensor unit after the compressor shuts off. At best, it is a waste of electricity. At worse, it is damaging things by introducing additional metal fatigue. Temperature changes are bad, they introduce stress, particularly at joints. Rapid temperature changes are worse. So once the compressor shuts off, ideally you would hold the condensing section at a constant temp until it turns on again. Your extra fan time is causing it to cool faster. Now the fan while it is running is a fine idea, though it may not be cost effective. That just depends on if the additional life it gets out of your system isn't nullified by the extra cost of electricity. But it will keep it from getting as hot which means less temperature change and also the compressor will run at lower pressures if the condensor is cooler. In summary, I would tell you to have the fan shut off simultaneous to the compressor. Edited December 20, 2019 by apostolakisl
glacier991 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) Thanks all. A couple of notes. The wine cooler has no fans. These are fans I am adding, outside the refrigerator. They consume 7 watts each. This refrigerator has the condenser coils, fanless, located in the sides of the unit. My monitoring is real time. I am gratified to know there is nothing clearly wrong in my little programs. I will next try and determine the source for the off command. Thanks everyone! Edited December 20, 2019 by glacier991 Clarity
larryllix Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 14 minutes ago, glacier991 said: Thanks all. A couple of notes. The wine cooler has no fans. These are fans I am adding, outside the refrigerator. They consume 7 watts each. This refrigerator has the condenser coils, fanless, located in the sides of the unit. My monitoring is real time. I am gratified to know there is nothing clearly wrong in my little programs. I will next try and determine the source for the off command. Thanks everyone! Remember ISY admin console has a search function to find any device, program, phrase etc.. Invaluable for finding forgotten code.
apostolakisl Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, glacier991 said: Thanks all. A couple of notes. The wine cooler has no fans. These are fans I am adding, outside the refrigerator. They consume 7 watts each. This refrigerator has the condenser coils, fanless, located in the sides of the unit. My monitoring is real time. I am gratified to know there is nothing clearly wrong in my little programs. I will next try and determine the source for the off command. Thanks everyone! I don't know exactly what you have, but I would not build in anything like this. The low-priced coolers with the condensors built-in to the walls of the unit must have the walls free and clear of any obstruction. Units that can be built-in have condensors that are fan cooled either above or below the cabinet. The temperature of the condensing coils directly affect the unit efficiency and (directly related) load on the compressor. Higher temp = higher pressure = more power draw = more wear and tear on the compressor. The temp of the coils when the compressor is not running isn't of much relevance. I suppose if you are only sort-of building it in and leaving and inch or so of space, then running a nice fan with a proper circulating pattern that brings in fresh air and exhausts the old air away from the inlet air would work. But that doesn't give you a built-in finished look. Maybe you could install some attractive louvers on the sides and make it look good. This all gets to be more work than just earning the money it takes to buy a real built-in.
glacier991 Posted December 21, 2019 Author Posted December 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: I suppose if you are only sort-of building it in and leaving and inch or so of space, then running a nice fan with a proper circulating pattern that brings in fresh air and exhausts the old air away from the inlet air would work. But that doesn't give you a built-in finished look. Maybe you could install some attractive louvers on the sides and make it look good. This all gets to be more work than just earning the money it takes to buy a real built-in. You have stayed my situation precisely. Since I am designing and installing semi custom cabinetry, I have the luxury to adjusting and or building to match what I want or need. I like the idea of louvres. Cost? $400 vs upwards of $1500 for my approach. I have more time and talent than money these days, so.... Thanks for your insightful reply. I really appreciate it... Now, for those 10 minutes...?
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