ralbright Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 1 hour ago, asbril said: I don't think that yours is a fair assessment. The way UDI works is to bring a new state-of-the-art hardware and then gradually add features that are also innovating but that need to be tested. This community helps with the testing. The Polisy may, right now, bring you limited new features compared to the RPi that you were probably using, but it is way more powerful and easier to set up and use for the less techies, like me and others. Eventually the ISY software will run on the Polisy and many more nodeservers will be added. It has more ports and therefore numerous possibilities. It is your choice to jump on the train early or later, and speaking of trains..... The Polisy is like the super fast trains in Europe (TGV) and Japan (Shinkansen) . First they need new rails, then the locomotive, new safety procedures...... It is a gradual process, but the progress is exciting and full of new horizons. That is probably the best way that it can be put... (to continue with your train metaphor) us early adopters are frustrated that our shiny new locomotives are stuck on one particular route, when the other older trains can go some many more places currently. New tracks are being laid weekly, and we will be able to go further and faster than existing ones. Thank you for reminding me (and others) of this. I have not been the most patient with this (and my apologies to Michel and the others at UDI for my frustration.) If we work together, we can have a really nice shiny system to work together with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuckerdude Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 To be clear guys...I'm used to this process as I am an early adopter and very happy to ride the rails of progress however slowly it goes. My only point was that my OWN expectations for this seem to have been misguided as I was not aware just how "raw" this product was out of the gate. I had some initial setup issues (trying to set static IP), and a few other problems. But then I just felt like I wound up with something that didn't really give me any new functionality. And FYI, in my case there was no RPI in the loop. I was simply using the ISY and some mobile apps like "MobilLinc". I had hoped that "out of the box" Polisy would feel more polished but I quickly realized it was early days for the product. That's totally ok, but I wish I had realized that before pulling the trigger. As with others here, I am happy to see where this will go and ready for a bumpy ride if that's what it takes! BTW, it was THIS group that helped me solve my issues during setup, so many thanks for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 All, I was just going to ignore this thread but it's just so out of touch with _our_ reality that I have no choice but to respond. For those of you armchair warriors, yes, Linux is great! Alas, for those of us who have to deal with licensing and litigation issues for such stupid things as busybox WHILE making sure the company stays alive, well, I am sorry to disappoint. For those of us who have to install variations of crap-devel-nnnn packages just to compile the simplest things and then see everything go to hell when crap-devel-nnnn+1 comes out, well, again, I am sorry to disappoint. Choosing BSD was never our first choice. We spent almost 2 years trying to get all the above sorted out while trying to build our own package manager to ensure our own packages (those compiled with the C compiler) are not going to crap out when there are new versions of xxx-devel.so.1111112222. So, I am so sorry to disappoint. With regard to docker, currently, we have docker running in PGC for each node server and, unfortunately, it uses so much resources ($$$$$$) that we have had to redesign it for PG3. So, not so sure it would have been a good solution for Polisy regardless. For those of you who want to use RPi, please note that, as any normal business a) we need to stay profitable and b) as always, we make sure whatever we produce works, is solid, and is supported. Therefore, with Polisy comes our support. With RPi, you are on your own. And, PG3 is very much Polisy based and not RPi based. For those of you who feel pushed into pulling the trigger, the solution has always been so simple: we have always had 30 day money back guarantee with no questions asked. So, it's very disheartening and rather insulting to see these comments. No one pushed you to pull the trigger and no one stopped you from asking for a refund. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralbright Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I for one didn't feel pushed to pulling the trigger. Unrealistic expectations, yes. But this topic has opened my eyes a bit and now I realize that I was expecting a bit more from Polisy from the get go that was realistic to expect. This product is still in its infancy, and will be marvelous to behold when it is done. Thank you Michel!! That being said, if we all could get along so that everything can move to polyglot that would be great. I have a private message going back and forth between someone on the Brultech forum that is trying to create a Node Server for Brultech GEM. And that will mean that I can have all of my control within ISY and Polisy. I really appreciate what io_guy has designed, it bridged a needed gap for a time, but I want everything to run natively not relying on third party products to make things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
io_guy Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 47 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: All, I was just going to ignore this thread but it's just so out of touch with _our_ reality that I have no choice but to respond. For those of you armchair warriors, yes, Linux is great! Alas, for those of us who have to deal with licensing and litigation issues for such stupid things as busybox WHILE making sure the company stays alive, well, I am sorry to disappoint. For those of us who have to install variations of crap-devel-nnnn packages just to compile the simplest things and then see everything go to hell when crap-devel-nnnn+1 comes out, well, again, I am sorry to disappoint. Choosing BSD was never our first choice. We spent almost 2 years trying to get all the above sorted out while trying to build our own package manager to ensure our own packages (those compiled with the C compiler) are not going to crap out when there are new versions of xxx-devel.so.1111112222. So, I am so sorry to disappoint. With regard to docker, currently, we have docker running in PGC for each node server and, unfortunately, it uses so much resources ($$$$$$) that we have had to redesign it for PG3. So, not so sure it would have been a good solution for Polisy regardless. For those of you who want to use RPi, please note that, as any normal business a) we need to stay profitable and b) as always, we make sure whatever we produce works, is solid, and is supported. Therefore, with Polisy comes our support. With RPi, you are on your own. And, PG3 is very much Polisy based and not RPi based. For those of you who feel pushed into pulling the trigger, the solution has always been so simple: we have always had 30 day money back guarantee with no questions asked. So, it's very disheartening and rather insulting to see these comments. No one pushed you to pull the trigger and no one stopped you from asking for a refund. With kind regards, Michel The only point of this I don't agree with is the "crap" package. The package I've asked to install (from the beginning) is the OFFICIAL FreeBSD 12.1 repo openssl package, which at this point is actually newer than the built-in OS version. It's fine and I'm done with arguing about it too, I have no plans to bring NodeLink to BSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
io_guy Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 11 hours ago, asbril said: The way UDI works is to bring a new state-of-the-art hardware and then gradually add features that are also innovating but that need to be tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, io_guy said: I see your point and you are obviously more tech savvy than I am. However, from my experience with UDI, I have the fullest confidence in Michel and Chris that they will choose what is best and most appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 16 minutes ago, io_guy said: The only point of this I don't agree with is the "crap" package. The package I've asked to install (from the beginning) is the OFFICIAL FreeBSD 12.1 repo openssl package, which at this point is actually newer than the built-in OS version. It's fine and I'm done with arguing about it too, I have no plans to bring NodeLink to BSD. @io_guy, I had no clue that you had not already given up (over a month ago). Had I known that you had, I wouldn't have asked you to return your Polisy. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
io_guy Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I was still planning on supporting it on polisy (even though I wouldn't use it personally). Since I don't use polyglot and the ISY isn't on polisy yet, it didn't make sense for me to run another device in the house when I already have a Pi and Synology running. Right now I run a combination of ISY and Homeseer4. It's up in the air which way I'll end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 7:07 PM, giesen said: It's unfortunate UDI chose FreeBSD rather than Linux for Polisy. I understand the reasons why (licensing) but all the interesting embedded stuff is happening in Linux. Had it been 10 years ago it might be a different story, but nowadays if you're going to do embedded on FreeBSD you have to do it soup-to-nuts because the community has all moved on to Linux, FreeBSD simply isn't an interesting target anymore. Other than the technical differences - there is a HUGE difference in the licensing of Linux (GPL) and *BSD (the BSD license). The GPL is very restrictive to commercial development. The BSD license is not. You would be surprised how many IOT devices actually use a *BSD kernel under the hood. When is the last time you saw an IOT manufacturer release the modifications they made to the GPL licensed code? They are either choosing to violate the GPL - or they are actually using a BSD varient. I don't think the economics are there to release something like Polisy if you have to comply with the terms of the GPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giesen Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 Other than the technical differences - there is a HUGE difference in the licensing of Linux (GPL) and *BSD (the BSD license). The GPL is very restrictive to commercial development. The BSD license is not. You would be surprised how many IOT devices actually use a *BSD kernel under the hood. When is the last time you saw an IOT manufacturer release the modifications they made to the GPL licensed code? They are either choosing to violate the GPL - or they are actually using a BSD varient. I don't think the economics are there to release something like Polisy if you have to comply with the terms of the GPL. It depends on what you're trying to do. Many manufacturers, Cisco, and most home networking devices, run on Linux, so clearly it's viable. If most of the stuff you're trying to do is in user space, it should actually be pretty easy. If you're trying to add drivers to the Linux kernel, it's trickier but not impossible. You still have to comply with the GPL and release source code for the GPL components, but it's possible to comply and still keep your proprietary code secret (and many vendors do). https://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=114663 https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Programmers-GPL https://tsd.dlink.com.tw/downloads2008list.asp?SourceType=download&OS=GPL Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 True that. However, UDI likely added modifications to the kernel to support TPM based security (bios and boot image signing) and the like. That's all proprietary and I'm sure UDI really doesn't want to release it (possible key material and all). One of the several reasons why Linux based IOT is generally insecure is the lack of a fully signed boot process and signed firmware upgrades. xBSD is far better in this regard mainly because of its license.Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 Well.... let's just say that it might be possible for UDI to add signed boot and all that... but right now, the TPM does nothing, and I've booted several different OS's on the Polisy just fine, as well as booted the UDI image with a stock FreeBSD 12.1 kernel (that knows nothing of the TPM). I imagine that will all change in the future, when the Polisy replaces the ISY, but for the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 I know I'll be digging myself deeper but, and as always, I must respond otherwise I'll be letting half-truths take over facts: TPM boot has three parts: 1. A firmware (i.e. BIOS or UEFI) that initializes the hardware. This firmware must be signed and validated by a TPM processor. Check ... unplug the TPM processor and Polisy will not boot up 2. A flash chip that holds the firmware (#1) MUST be lockable so that you cannot install another firmware into the flash. You can lock only once. Once locked you can NOT unlock. Check ... lock the R/W section of the flash and then install another firmware and watch your Polisy bricked 3. OS image that's signed by the same entity as #1. Partly checked because we are changing the structure of the flash so that all sensitive information is encrypted and stored there With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 I know I'll be digging myself deeper but, and as always, I must respond otherwise I'll be letting half-truths take over facts: TPM boot has three parts: 1. A firmware (i.e. BIOS or UEFI) that initializes the hardware. This firmware must be signed and validated by a TPM processor. Check ... unplug the TPM processor and Polisy will not boot up 2. A flash chip that holds the firmware (#1) MUST be lockable so that you cannot install another firmware into the flash. You can lock only once. Once locked you can NOT unlock. Check ... lock the R/W section of the flash and then install another firmware and watch your Polisy bricked 3. OS image that's signed by the same entity as #1. Partly checked because we are changing the structure of the flash so that all sensitive information is encrypted and stored there With kind regards, Michel Check! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giesen Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 All, I was just going to ignore this thread but it's just so out of touch with _our_ reality that I have no choice but to respond. For those of you armchair warriors, yes, Linux is great! Alas, for those of us who have to deal with licensing and litigation issues for such stupid things as busybox WHILE making sure the company stays alive, well, I am sorry to disappoint. For those of us who have to install variations of crap-devel-nnnn packages just to compile the simplest things and then see everything go to hell when crap-devel-nnnn+1 comes out, well, again, I am sorry to disappoint. Choosing BSD was never our first choice. We spent almost 2 years trying to get all the above sorted out while trying to build our own package manager to ensure our own packages (those compiled with the C compiler) are not going to crap out when there are new versions of xxx-devel.so.1111112222. So, I am so sorry to disappoint. With regard to docker, currently, we have docker running in PGC for each node server and, unfortunately, it uses so much resources ($$$$$$) that we have had to redesign it for PG3. So, not so sure it would have been a good solution for Polisy regardless. For those of you who want to use RPi, please note that, as any normal business a) we need to stay profitable and as always, we make sure whatever we produce works, is solid, and is supported. Therefore, with Polisy comes our support. With RPi, you are on your own. And, PG3 is very much Polisy based and not RPi based. For those of you who feel pushed into pulling the trigger, the solution has always been so simple: we have always had 30 day money back guarantee with no questions asked. So, it's very disheartening and rather insulting to see these comments. No one pushed you to pull the trigger and no one stopped you from asking for a refund. With kind regards, Michel Michel,It's a little disappointing to see this comment from you. I won't pretend to speak for anyone else, but any comments I offered were mostly offered as a comment on the current state of Polisy, not a direct criticism. I think we all realize it's still early times for Polisy (although many wish that was not the case), and we are just trying to shape and mold the direction of the product. Given what are likely your objectives of having an easy-to-install node system with Polyglot, I think you'll do just fine with your choice. I also understand there are many challenges with the GPL for commercial products, and that BSD often offers an easier alternative, especially if you are trying to lock the software to the hardware.Also, UDI may not have as much experience with *nix, so I feel like many members are trying to share good practices (such as package management) and seems to be evoking undue hostility from you. Some of us have been a bit frustrated by the inability to solve the NodeLink problem with good package management practices, although you may certainly have other problems to consider (as you've alluded to in your other posts).If perhaps there's any blame to lay here (and I'm not saying there is), it would be for having too open an ecosystem with regard to node servers, in that there wasn't enforcement of the use of Polyglot, and now you have a flourishing node server community, and@io_guy has a very popular (if not the most popular) node server that doesn't work on the "new shiny". Now as you trying to reel things back in from everyone running everything on the RPi and get things running on Polisy, the brokenness is creating friction.I may not 100% agree with@io_guy's choice of framework for NodeLink, but clearly he's had a great deal of success with it (definitely more than I have), and he certainly stepped up and included functionality for me when UDI could not.I've never at any time said I wanted to return my Polisy. Truth be told I'm fairly excited about what the future holds, although currently a bit annoyed at having to split my nodes between it and an RPi (I'd hoped I could have gotten rid of the RPi by now).Perhaps the best way to meet your goals is to have a clean break for Polisy, and only allow installation of Polyglot node servers. This would ensure you can offer a clean set of libraries without worry about what else is required, this keeps a tidy ecosystem while reducing your development and support costs (especially given your small team), and satisfies most of your users.I will certainly be disappointed, but clearly you cannot spend inordinate resources to satisfy a small handful of users while you still have multiple products to finish.Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 @giesen, I appreciate the feedback and I am sorry you feel disappointed. As you may know, we do take all comments and criticisms very seriously. Alas, questioning the core of what we spent the past 3 years on is really not criticism. It's analogous to Beta vs. VHS, Android vs. IOS, Windows vs. MAC, Linux vs. BSD, etc. It's a comment that we cannot do anything with except to explain the reasoning behind our decision, which I did. With regard to NodeLink, I very much appreciate all io_guy's contributions and I always will. And, we would love to support NodeLink provided that we don't have to rebuild the OS. But, I am sure even io_guy will agree that, at the moment, this is just moot. PG3 is the clean break because sensitive data will be stored encrypted in the flash. This said, I am not sure I understand why you wouldn't be able to still have Polyglot and nodelink. ISY is agnostic to the source of nodes. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 9:46 AM, Tuckerdude said: To be clear guys...I'm used to this process as I am an early adopter and very happy to ride the rails of progress however slowly it goes. My only point was that my OWN expectations for this seem to have been misguided as I was not aware just how "raw" this product was out of the gate. I had some initial setup issues (trying to set static IP), and a few other problems. But then I just felt like I wound up with something that didn't really give me any new functionality. And FYI, in my case there was no RPI in the loop. I was simply using the ISY and some mobile apps like "MobilLinc". I had hoped that "out of the box" Polisy would feel more polished but I quickly realized it was early days for the product. That's totally ok, but I wish I had realized that before pulling the trigger. As with others here, I am happy to see where this will go and ready for a bumpy ride if that's what it takes! BTW, it was THIS group that helped me solve my issues during setup, so many thanks for that! Tuckerdude, I am re-reading your post. If you are just using the ISY and Mobilinc, then you are not using nodeservers. If that is the case, then you are (very respectfully) missing the point on Polisy. The Polyglot nodeservers have exponentially improved ISY's home automation. In my case, AVRemote and Harmony Hub greatly improved my music streaming. Holidays Google rules my ISY wake-up programs. Others make tremendous use of other useful nodeservers. And with that, Polisy is just at the beginning of its revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuckerdude Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Hey asbril...thanks for the follow up! Indeed I AM using nodeservers and understand the distinction (and advantages) between them both. In fact, I using a few of the same ones you mention. Based on some of the reactions here, I think maybe I came off like a "whiner", not my intention whatsoever! I know this stuff is hard to do, so as I said...I'm ready to ride it out. I certainly don't want the developers (and the support folks on this forum) to get offended by what I said. I will look forward to more and more improvements and additions as the product naturally matures.... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tuckerdude said: Hey asbril...thanks for the follow up! Indeed I AM using nodeservers and understand the distinction (and advantages) between them both. In fact, I using a few of the same ones you mention. Based on some of the reactions here, I think maybe I came off like a "whiner", not my intention whatsoever! I know this stuff is hard to do, so as I said...I'm ready to ride it out. I certainly don't want the developers (and the support folks on this forum) to get offended by what I said. I will look forward to more and more improvements and additions as the product naturally matures.... Thanks! Great that you are using Nodeservers. I understand your frustrations that sometimes we want more and faster. I am frustrated sometimes with my Alexa and Google Home devices, when they don't do or don't know something. We get a new technology and our expectations may exceed what is available immediately. When it comes to ISY, the company (UDI) lets us in at an early stage so that we help with bugs and ideas. They also have a superb customer support and really use our comments and suggestions. That is maybe why some us are a bit defensive when it comes to UDI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Tuckerdude said: Hey asbril...thanks for the follow up! Indeed I AM using nodeservers and understand the distinction (and advantages) between them both. In fact, I using a few of the same ones you mention. Based on some of the reactions here, I think maybe I came off like a "whiner", not my intention whatsoever! I know this stuff is hard to do, so as I said...I'm ready to ride it out. I certainly don't want the developers (and the support folks on this forum) to get offended by what I said. I will look forward to more and more improvements and additions as the product naturally matures.... Thanks! OK.... we will call you VHS from now on as @Michel Kohanim posted he/ISY was Beta,, IIRC. hmmmmm... I hope BSD isn't another disease. I know UDI is tasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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