MyServer or CQC Anyone?

[simplextech]

I've started playing around with Allonis MyServer and Charmed Quark (CQC).  Looking to expand my own knowledge into those realms and to expand Media functions of my home automation knowledge.

Anyone out there use either or experience with them?

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, simplextech said:

I've started playing around with Allonis MyServer and Charmed Quark (CQC).  Looking to expand my own knowledge into those realms and to expand Media functions of my home automation knowledge.

Anyone out there use either or experience with them?

I was watching the CQC system for a while, when he came out with demo/sales videos for a later version.. I found starting a basic system to be like learning assembler programming. It seemed you had to define every piece of hardware, then build another layer on top of that and then finally create rules. I didn't think they could be as complex as ISY logic but multiple layers could accomplish the same things. I found it a sales detriment, ( scare away the general lay types) although it seemed very/more powerful for hacker types.

[simplextech]

44 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I didn't think they could be as complex as ISY logic but multiple layers could accomplish the same things. I found it a sales detriment, ( scare away the general lay types) although it seemed very/more powerful for hacker types.

I did a couple installs and had some minor bumps trying out the current beta version.  Seems interesting.  I just spent most of the day fiddling around with MyServer trying out the system with some basic stuff.  Also seems very deep and complex.  I think I'll spend more time tomorrow on CQC and see what I get out of it.  New toys right?

 

[simplextech]

On 12/30/2019 at 12:19 AM, larryllix said:

I was watching the CQC system for a while, when he came out with demo/sales videos for a later version.. I found starting a basic system to be like learning assembler programming. It seemed you had to define every piece of hardware, then build another layer on top of that and then finally create rules. I didn't think they could be as complex as ISY logic but multiple layers could accomplish the same things. I found it a sales detriment, ( scare away the general lay types) although it seemed very/more powerful for hacker types.

CQC is quite advanced and very geeky but logical as well.  I've so far integrated the ISY with it and only some minor bugs with the 5.x firmware with how the CQC driver interacts with the ISY through the SOAP interface.  I'm talking with Deane about it but he's busy with porting the system to Linux (yay!) so I'm not sure how soon the issue will be addressed.  However it's only minor so far and it might get addressed.

The ability to bring in all sorts of AV equipment and external devices and having under a single control structure is nice.  The UI creation tools are so far very nice and very feature rich.  I'm going to see how far I can take this....

[bpwwer]

Yes, Deane has been working on CQC for a long time and it is a great product.   I experimented with a long time ago along with the predecessor to MyServer.  I did do some plug-in development for the MyServer predecessor, but at the time, they we not interested in supporting third party plug-in developers. I've kept in touch with one of the main folks at Allonis and every now an then, check in to see what they're up to.

I ended up using a product called Elve, that has similar capabilities to both CQC and MyServer.  The Elve developer was very open to third party developers and provided a well documented SDK for creating device plug-ins.  It also used C# basically for it's scripting language.  Unfortunately, it didn't survive in the marketplace and is no longer being maintained.

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

Yes, Deane has been working on CQC for a long time and it is a great product.   I experimented with a long time ago along with the predecessor to MyServer.  I did do some plug-in development for the MyServer predecessor, but at the time, they we not interested in supporting third party plug-in developers. I've kept in touch with one of the main folks at Allonis and every now an then, check in to see what they're up to.

I ended up using a product called Elve, that has similar capabilities to both CQC and MyServer.  The Elve developer was very open to third party developers and provided a well documented SDK for creating device plug-ins.  It also used C# basically for it's scripting language.  Unfortunately, it didn't survive in the marketplace and is no longer being maintained.

Yeah Dean is still hard at work on CQC which is very positive.  Their forum is very quiet... I've posted asking if it's mostly dead or not... see what noise that generates

I remember ML and such before MyServer.  I got in touch with David and they are really focused on the commercial aspect of installs/deployments (sports bars) and really aren't interested in "Home Automation" that much and definitely not in 3rd party development.  I'm still poking them and trying out MyServer.  It's a beast and currently under heavy development so some necessary features are disabled which makes configuration even harder as it's manual and the documentation is... lacking to non-existent. 

I've heard of Elve and seen your plugins for it.  Never used that system. 

[fahrer16]

I've used myServer for a while as a very customizable front-end for the ISY and some media integrations.  I leave the ISY to do all of the logic though; the "Automation Rules" in myServer are OK but having everything centralized in the ISY is much more reliable and easier to manage. 

myServer can work out of the box pretty well with the ISY with very little configuration or you can go crazy and really customize it.  I think the ISY driver is actually still the same driver under the hood that @bpwwer wrote a really long time ago for ML.  Unfortunately, Allonis hasn't kept up with their ISY driver to support node servers so I've used node-red as a kind of glue to interface the two for things outside of light switches.  I think it's a little over-priced though, each "family" of devices is another $100 and now they've added a subscription fee on top of buying the software.

[simplextech]

Just now, fahrer16 said:

I've used myServer for a while as a very customizable front-end for the ISY and some media integrations.  I leave the ISY to do all of the logic though; the "Automation Rules" in myServer are OK but having everything centralized in the ISY is much more reliable and easier to manage. 

myServer can work out of the box pretty well with the ISY with very little configuration or you can go crazy and really customize it.  I think the ISY driver is actually still the same driver under the hood that @bpwwer wrote a really long time ago for ML.  Unfortunately, Allonis hasn't kept up with their ISY driver to support node servers so I've used node-red as a kind of glue to interface the two for things outside of light switches.  I think it's a little over-priced though, each "family" of devices is another $100 and now they've added a subscription fee on top of buying the software.

To start the ISY driver with the 5.x FW has problems.  I've relayed info to Dave but I don't think it will get much attention as they have said "others" don't have problems.  I suspect those "others" haven't upgraded... EVER.....

The current expedition into MyServer has been interesting.  The UI designer is very nice and capable.  A big issue I'm having currently is with the changes they made to zones and configuration with the cyclestates and in the current version they disabled the "Zone Builder" which makes it nearly impossible to configure correctly because there's no documentation!!!!

I'm finding bits and pieces of things that work and a whole lot of doesn't work.   Their current Z-Wave driver is a great way to do it.  They interface with Z-Way so you can have multiple z-wave interfaces and have them network attached (like z-net for homeseer) and this is a great approach.  I've pushed this idea with @Michel Kohanimin the past but not sure he liked it much because it was 3rd party z-wave not their own.  Either way I think it's a great approach or look toward zwave2mqtt as an option.  But point being back to MyServer their z-wave integration with z-way is not complete even.  They don't parse and include z-wave thermostat's correctly.... really???  I've posted this on their forum and sent a message to Dave but I'm sure it's not a priority.

[simplextech]

After several days of annoying the crap out of Dean with questions and issues on the CQC forum I have a partial system up and running.  I say partial because I can see devices and interact and even have some cool interactions going on with MQTT and zwave2mqtt which is cool.  Yet I have minimal events setup as the CQC event capabilities and options are enormous and it's been far too many late nights of trying to absorb it all. 

Definitely a complex system but I like it

 

[simplextech]

After a couple weeks of playing around the results are Allonis is more focused on commercial deployments and sales with limited to no interest in individual or DIY installs.  Which is their direction. 

CharmedQuark is stagnant with Dean focusing on a Linux port that could take years so the existing product is now only partially functional with the ISY driver and Hue driver.  Considering the cost of CQC I expected FAR MORE quality from it than it provides today.  If Dean pulls his head out of his.... and puts some focus back on the DIY realm cleans up the drivers and adjusts cost model to be DIY centric CQC could really take off in today's climate of wanting a fully local system that can do it all and still be developer friendly.  I really had high hopes and expectations of CQC and disappointment is bitter.  I hope Dean puts on the big boy pants and does a 180 to pull CQC out of the abyss otherwise it is a dead product.

[Michel Kohanim]

@simplextech,

I am so very sorry to hear. Perhaps we should do a kickstarter project for a UI/App for ISY + support for node servers.

With kind regards,
Michel

[simplextech]

4 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@simplextech,

I am so very sorry to hear. Perhaps we should do a kickstarter project for a UI/App for ISY + support for node servers.

With kind regards,
Michel

Why do you think I pulled @kewashito the party?

Seriously the potential that once existed with CQC being able to pull in various systems ranging from automation up through A/V and communications (serial/ip/mqtt) into a cohesive structure and a full touchscreen UI builder.  Powerful... complex but powerful.  With MyServer more on a commercial direction and if CQC does just finally die... the DIY market is left only with HomeSeer and they're changing direction to cater to the lowest common denominator of consumer users to compete with "hubs".

[Michel Kohanim]

@simplextech,

Sounds good!
With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

21 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@simplextech,

I am so very sorry to hear. Perhaps we should do a kickstarter project for a UI/App for ISY + support for node servers.

With kind regards,
Michel

Hi Michel,

I can only affirm that (IF) such a project should materialize: Just shut up and take my money ?

Seriously, I feel you and the team have gone back to many past forum threads and gleaned away on some the top five items to tackle in 2020! I know in the past you had mentioned the team isn't equipped to handle the development of smart apps, pretty UI, etc.

Let Kickstarter / IndiGoGo be that channel to generate a defined amount to fund the R&D for the above and hire this out.  

[simplextech]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

Hi Michel,

I can only affirm that (IF) such a project should materialize: Just shut up and take my money ?

Seriously, I feel you and the team have gone back to many past forum threads and gleaned away on some the top five items to tackle in 2020! I know in the past you had mentioned the team isn't equipped to handle the development of smart apps, pretty UI, etc.

Let Kickstarter / IndiGoGo be that channel to generate a defined amount to fund the R&D for the above and hire this out.  

This right here is one of the reasons I was looking into CQC.  It has a super customizable UI builder for everything under CQC... If the ISY driver was fully implemented and not it's sad partial state that it is today the combo of a CQC + ISY + anything else that CQC supports and can be added.... the great thing about CQC was that it was agnostic and could integrate with anything and build a UI for anything in a consistent uniform manner.  CQC was highly unique like the ISY where it has a defined structure for devices and integrations and this structure ensures functionality from end device all the way to the UI which also makes UI building consistent and functional.  Is it easy? No but it's not rocket science and if there was a community like we have here to provide insight and support... I seriously think something amazingly powerful would emerge.

[Teken]

6 minutes ago, simplextech said:

This right here is one of the reasons I was looking into CQC.  It has a super customizable UI builder for everything under CQC... If the ISY driver was fully implemented and not it's sad partial state that it is today the combo of a CQC + ISY + anything else that CQC supports and can be added.... the great thing about CQC was that it was agnostic and could integrate with anything and build a UI for anything in a consistent uniform manner.  CQC was highly unique like the ISY where it has a defined structure for devices and integrations and this structure ensures functionality from end device all the way to the UI which also makes UI building consistent and functional.  Is it easy? No but it's not rocket science and if there was a community like we have here to provide insight and support... I seriously think something amazingly powerful would emerge.

Not to derail your thread but speaking about a UI / Smart Application. I truly believe if both of them could integrate the following ideas and concepts this would promote adoption and increase cross sales.

Skins / Themes: Like the back in the day WinAMP MP3 player it allowed the community to build different skins for the UI.

Icons: Everyone likes to stand out or customize their install to each of the needs at hand. Having the ability to drag and drop personal / custom images to reflect a area, room, zone, device.

Dock & Hide: Have the ability to move the various window panes along with being able to hide lessor used windows from view.

Multi Login View: Have the ability to restrict access, control, and view based on tiered permissions. I know in a few installs we did one site had for the guests only the most basic options presented to them. Whereas the Admin could login and access more robust feature of the system.   

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

Not to derail your thread but speaking about a UI / Smart Application. I truly believe if both of them could integrate the following ideas and concepts this would promote adoption and increase cross sales.

Skins / Themes: Like the back in the day WinAMP MP3 player it allowed the community to build different skins for the UI.

Icons: Everyone likes to stand out or customize their install to each of the needs at hand. Having the ability to drag and drop personal / custom images to reflect a area, room, zone, device.

Dock & Hide: Have the ability to move the various window panes along with being able to hide lessor used windows from view.

Multi Login View: Have the ability to restrict access, control, and view based on tiered permissions. I know in a few installs we did one site had for the guests only the most basic options presented to them. Whereas the Admin could login and access more robust feature of the system.   

All of that is available in CQC.  Granted it does take effort on the end user part to create the UI.  However a very good looking and functional UI can be auto generated just by adding devices into a list and clicking the generate button.  From there it can be customized completely.  There's icon packs available that user's create a long time ago and some not even that long ago. 

CQC is today Windows based as are most HA server systems.  Dean has been working on a Linux port but reality is that's going to take a long time for a system so complex.  The native system has a Interface Viewer that is a Windows client app and it has WebRiva which is the web interface.  This allows full powerful touchscreen use on mini PC's or tablets like the Surface tablet/pc or mobile access from browsers (android/ios phones tablets).  As with any good system including ISY there's a powerful language that can be used to develop full blown drivers to extend the system or be used for macros or functions that are easier done in a macro and reused rather than written over and over again in events aka programs.

Flat out if I had the resources I'd buy out CharmedQuark.  Then partner with UDI and another system to combine with ZigBee functionality.  At that point it would be THE MOST capable and expandable system available.  PERIOD.  Then I'd price structure it to be DIY accessible and provide hardware bundles vs DIY for easy deployments.  Structure a developer program that has a market place for residual dual path income both for the parent company and the developers along with providing assurance to consumers around quality and support of extensions.  The day of the "hubs" is coming to an end as consumers are learning that cloud based services are shutting down constantly and leaving them with non-functioning and expensive equipment.  Every day there's someone asking for a solution for a UI or local voice control or a device integration.  These are all potential avenues not only of revenue streams but also of evolution of smart home automation and into commercial business automations.  Having a unified core that can service residential and commercial integrations is truely a gold mine that has gone untapped for a long time because of isolation of being a high end only system and being out of price and technical reach of most home consumers.

Here's an idea... UDI buy CQC and then have the most powerful/capable system on the market??? next world domination.

[Teken]

23 minutes ago, simplextech said:

All of that is available in CQC.  Granted it does take effort on the end user part to create the UI.  However a very good looking and functional UI can be auto generated just by adding devices into a list and clicking the generate button.  From there it can be customized completely.  There's icon packs available that user's create a long time ago and some not even that long ago. 

CQC is today Windows based as are most HA server systems.  Dean has been working on a Linux port but reality is that's going to take a long time for a system so complex.  The native system has a Interface Viewer that is a Windows client app and it has WebRiva which is the web interface.  This allows full powerful touchscreen use on mini PC's or tablets like the Surface tablet/pc or mobile access from browsers (android/ios phones tablets).  As with any good system including ISY there's a powerful language that can be used to develop full blown drivers to extend the system or be used for macros or functions that are easier done in a macro and reused rather than written over and over again in events aka programs.

Flat out if I had the resources I'd buy out CharmedQuark.  Then partner with UDI and another system to combine with ZigBee functionality.  At that point it would be THE MOST capable and expandable system available.  PERIOD.  Then I'd price structure it to be DIY accessible and provide hardware bundles vs DIY for easy deployments.  Structure a developer program that has a market place for residual dual path income both for the parent company and the developers along with providing assurance to consumers around quality and support of extensions.  The day of the "hubs" is coming to an end as consumers are learning that cloud based services are shutting down constantly and leaving them with non-functioning and expensive equipment.  Every day there's someone asking for a solution for a UI or local voice control or a device integration.  These are all potential avenues not only of revenue streams but also of evolution of smart home automation and into commercial business automations.  Having a unified core that can service residential and commercial integrations is truely a gold mine that has gone untapped for a long time because of isolation of being a high end only system and being out of price and technical reach of most home consumers.

Here's an idea... UDI buy CQC and then have the most powerful/capable system on the market??? next world domination.

I think if all things being equal it's always wise to adopt and use existing solutions. This cuts down on R&D and offers a solid frame work to build upon. Having said that I see the value from starting from scratch and this allows each vendor to incorporate all of the best in class standards and supporting layers. 

OS Agnostic: It's 2020 so what ever is produced should be usable on Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS. With respect to ZigBee that is a sore point for me given no single manufacture follows the same standard for home automation, security, energy, etc. The so called ZigBee 3.0 is supposed to unify all of these protocols moving forward but that will not resolve incompatible (Gen 1 / Gen 2) hardware.

Local First vs Cloud First: Anyone who knows me understands my dim view on the so called *Cloud Power*. It has a place and given the right environment makes sense for various products and services. But as you noted almost every year there is at least one cloud service being abandoned and shut down. Or worse, the vendor decides to do the old famous switch and bait and insist upon charging a annual subscription fee.

There has to be something wrong with your brain to let someone have complete command and control of your security system. Yet people will also do the very same with their electrical system in the home via home automation. You couple this with poor decision making skills where people truly believe it's OK to automate heavy / industrial tools with no respect to personal safety.

Back on point: Starting from scratch a vendor knows the entire code and has a baseline as to what issues are present. Buying an existing platform means a steep and huge learning curve which doesn't even address existing customers.

I can tell you from personal experience having to support a product / service that you just bought from someone else truly sucks! Spending months to years learning the nuances and the lay of the land of a product / service is mind bending and kills a person slowly each day. 

Open Platform: What ever the UDI teams decides on I hope they continue to promote a open platform so that spark they gave becomes a raging fire for all.

 

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

I can tell you from personal experience having to support a product / service that you just bought from someone else truly sucks! Spending months to years learning the nuances and the lay of the land of a product / service is mind bending and kills a person slowly each day. 

Valid points and i wanted to pick on this one.  I completely understand... been there.  What is done far too often is a sweep and clean... aka Blue washing for those that have been through it... worst possible scenario.  The best route would be buy out to save them from disaster and leave them alone to do what they do best.  With both platforms operating as normal but now with dual interest in cooperation and inter-functionality and expansion.

-- off topic to your industrial comment... I love the "how do I automate my fireplace" questions...

 

[simplextech]

Continuing with this... maybe a show of interest would be enough to cause movement towards development and further integration?  If there's any interest at all in having a more complete tie-in of A/V and UI customizations and integrations go sign up on the CharmedQuark forums and display a show of interest and post.  Shows of interest is always motivational for developers.

[bpwwer]

23 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Continuing with this... maybe a show of interest would be enough to cause movement towards development and further integration?  If there's any interest at all in having a more complete tie-in of A/V and UI customizations and integrations go sign up on the CharmedQuark forums and display a show of interest and post.  Shows of interest is always motivational for developers.

While I'm all for the integration and UI customization, CharmedQuark is not high on my list of solutions.  While I have a lot of respect for what Dean has built, the biggest issue I have is that you have to use their language to write device drivers.  That's makes if very difficult to share code for a device with other systems.

Back when I stared working with the ISY I created a core library to talk to it and built  HomeSeer, Elve, and MainLobby frontends that all used that same core code. I looked at creating one for CQC but would have had to write a separate driver just for that system. 

Today, the ISY has expanded to the point where it's able to compete with software solution for event driven triggers and device control. What it doesn't have is a pretty frontend or the tools to build a pretty frontend.   Give it that and HomeSeer, MyServer, CQC, Indigo, etc. become mostly redundant.   

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

Today, the ISY has expanded to the point where it's able to compete with software solution for event driven triggers and device control. What it doesn't have is a pretty frontend or the tools to build a pretty frontend.   Give it that and HomeSeer, MyServer, CQC, Indigo, etc. become mostly redundant.   

ISY is missing more than a pretty frontend.  The pretty frontend is a piece of the puzzle that would then provide the features people really want and that's media integrations dynamic content STRINGS so they can see words other than the canned NLS entries. 

Either way... There's currently three primary Control systems out there.  HomeSeer, Indigo, CQC.  Indigo is a Mac only following and in most cases doesn't count in discussions except when there's Mac people present.  HomeSeer is making a directional leap to appeal to the lowest common denominator of mass market users in an attempt to compete with "hubs".  CQC is questionable about how long they remain viable as for the most part most people have never heard of CQC.

Of all of the systems available today within the DIY market CQC is the closest thing a regular user can get to a Control4 or Crestron system and still manage and control it and not need a second mortage to deploy.  CQC has integration with Lutron RadioRA2, Lutron Caseta, ISY, Z-Wave, Dozens of AV receivers and TV's and equipment through direct serial or IP.  From an integrator stand point CQC is a PITA because it is so complex from a DIY view it's a playground!

I think all of the current day focus on hubs has taken a lot of business from mid-range systems like HomeSeer and CQC and MyServer as they are more difficult to use and that's putting those companies into bad positions.  Allonis has turned away from DIY for the most part.  HS is now catering to mass market level of knowledge and CQC is really uncertain.

[bpwwer]

18 hours ago, simplextech said:

ISY is missing more than a pretty frontend.  The pretty frontend is a piece of the puzzle that would then provide the features people really want and that's media integrations dynamic content STRINGS so they can see words other than the canned NLS entries. 

But you really only dynamic content STRINGS if you have a UI so to me, that's just a backend feature that needs to be added to better support a pretty frontend.

If you ignore the GUI and just compare the ability to automate, the ISY is just as good as any of the software packages and it has an infrastructure that makes it fairly easy to add integrations to media devices.  Is it perfect?  No, it has quite a few quirks and limitations with the current hardware platform being one of the biggest limitations today.

A lot of us integrate the ISY with another software based control system simply because we need the software based control system to provide the UI (and probably also because they currently support more devices).  So rather work to better integrate the ISY with other control systems, why not push the UDI more to become a full featured replacement?  In my opinion the ISY ecosystem needs:

1. A real UI that looks good and can be designed. I.E. I want to set up a pretty tablet on the wall to view home status and control a few things.
2. More device support. I.E. more node servers.  As discussed elsewhere, there's a lot of work needed in this area.

With just those 2 simple  things, you'd not need HomeSeer, CQC, Control4, etc.

Also, remember that we're very early in the development of node servers even though it seems like they've been around for a long time, compared to HomeSeer, CQC, Control4, etc. they're the new kid on the block.  

I'd really like to move all the control that currently happens on my HA software to the ISY/Polisy but haven't because I just don't have the time to write the additional node servers that I'd need and write a UI.

[simplextech]

15 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

• A real UI that looks good and can be designed. I.E. I want to set up a pretty tablet on the wall to view home status and control a few things.
• More device support. I.E. more node servers.  As discussed elsewhere, there's a lot of work needed in this area.

You just argued the case for what CQC is best at while staying out of the way of the underlying controllers.  HomeSeer plugin integrations as you and I both know has far too much involved with the admin UI alone just for plugins to be usable and that doesn't provide anything to the end users in their customization.  Control4 is great if you can afford it and don't want to control your own system.  The end user UI and expansion of devices is why so many people are turning to using Home Assistant.  Even this is limiting and requires some development to actually customize the web UI to be something appealing and is very time consuming and you never know if it's going to break from release to release which happens frequently.

I think MANY people here would be happy to have a system with a unified front end that they could design and have underlying devices from Lutron or Insteon or Z-Wave or UPB or Vantage or whatever.  And those that are please reach out and lets see what can be done.... yeah that's a sales pitch if you didn't notice.

More device support via nodeserver or some mechanism is a must but priority first has to get the engine onto Polisy with better hardware.  The hardware limitations of the ISY are already being stretched with nodeservers.

[lilyoyo1]

The problem with what everyone wants and says the isy needs is cost. The question comes down to who's willing to pay what it costs? Sure, UDI can add a bunch of what everyone asks but that will come at a price. Control4 has what it has because it costs 10x as much as the isy. Even with homeseer, I you want all features you'll be looking at dropping around 600 dollars.

Judging by the number of people complaining about the cost of agave, mobilinc, and devices in general, I say not many. Until people (enough) are actually willing to pay, the discussion will never end.