The need for a better user interface for ISY. Does it exist?

[markv58]

Everyone does want something different, so if that is what you want then the app must be highly customizable or you must be willing to purchase someones time to do it for you or at least get you started with a framework that you can modify. Most people don't want to learn a programing language or a complex system to make their own app but they do know how to get around in their ISY so if it is no more difficult to modify than that, then that may be the solution. That is what I'm working on myself and am getting close to finalizing. I've made something I like but it could be easily configured another way. within reason.

This is my final design for the home page:

[simplextech]

35 minutes ago, markv58 said:

Everyone does want something different, so if that is what you want then the app must be highly customizable or you must be willing to purchase someones time to do it for you or at least get you started with a framework that you can modify.

This is the root of the problem.  People want everything but don't want to pay for the time that it actually takes.  I don't think most people other than those that have designed a UI understand the amount of time it takes to design/implement and then tweak/adjust and this is just for our own use.  Then take that and "customize" it for everybody's wants/taste the amount of time becomes enormous.  This is one of the BIG reasons why custom solutions are expensive.  It's not the hardware it's the TIME spent customizing the interfaces and integrations.

BTW - I like it

 

[madcodger]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is part of the reason some developers including udi isn't jumping to develop an interface. The people wanting something all have different ideas and desires in regards to what they are looking for. Due to this, the time and effort they spend to develop and maintain something may not bear the financial rewards to make it worthwhile. Not only that, it simply won't be what people are looking for causing the cycle to repeat itself. 

Here's all I can tell you... I'm happy to throw $$ at a problem. There are others like me. How much? Dunno yet - but I've spent $99 for an app, and I'm happy to subscribe to an app I really like and spend a fair amount more, over time. If you want an extension of your hobbies, @lilyoyo1, that's great. Enjoy! But I don't want another hobby right now. I just want a better app. Frankly, if @InsteonNut would continue development of Orchestrated Mobilinc, I'd probably be fine with it. But that solution is basically  a deadend while he concentrates on Mobilinc X / Mobilinc Connect, which don't meet my needs. I can't say what others want, but if I can grab a few minutes this weekend I'll show an example or two of what, personally, I'd like to see. Then, to me, it's just a "how much, and how soon" discussion.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, madcodger said:

Here's all I can tell you... I'm happy to throw $$ at a problem. There are others like me. How much? Dunno yet - but I've spent $99 for an app, and I'm happy to subscribe to an app I really like and spend a fair amount more, over time. If you want an extension of your hobbies, @lilyoyo1, that's great. Enjoy! But I don't want another hobby right now. I just want a better app. Frankly, if @InsteonNut would continue development of Orchestrated Mobilinc, I'd probably be fine with it. But that solution is basically  a deadend while he concentrates on Mobilinc X / Mobilinc Connect, which don't meet my needs. I can't say what others want, but if I can grab a few minutes this weekend I'll show an example or two of what, personally, I'd like to see. Then, to me, it's just a "how much, and how soon" discussion.

It's a business for me not a hobby. The only reason I say what I say is because I built an app once using command fusion and saw what goes into the development of apps. Using command fusion wasn't nearly as in depth as someone building something from the ground up. 

After that experience, I paid someone to do the work for me for client homes and it wasn't cheap. The 100 bucks that mobilinc and others charge is a small pittance in regards to time and effort. That pricepoint is simply in hopes that enough people sign up at that price to recoup their costs. 

I'm not speaking to you personally since you say you would be willing to pay more but how many people would? Over the past year, when you look at what people have asked for, I think many developers simply do not want the headache. I would add, if you are willing to pay that much for a custom solution for your needs, check out command fusion. I'm sure someone would be willing to hook you up for a fee. It's worth taking a look.

[markv58]

@lilyoyo1 I am using command fusion and have spent hundreds of hours over the last year figuring it out and how to caress feedback out of ISY, especially the Polyglot nodes which don't like to give it up easily. I've figured just about everything out and am down to a bit of design (eye-candy) bits and pieces and creating some icons.

@madcodger @simplextech Now with that all done and a shell to work with I'm trying to figure out how long it will take to set something up for someone else. A user has already sent me his node data and credentials so I can start that process. I need to find the price point, how much will someone pay and how little will I accept. If those two points intersect somewhere reasonable then gauging interest would follow. If it's a matter of pasting addresses and credentials in existing commands and queries with a little adding, subtracting and arranging design elements I believe it's doable.

I would think that one of the appealing aspects would be that someone could take over the design after the initial setup since the heavy lifting was already done.

[jfai]

Generally speaking, for maximum interest and addressing the most use cases, the U/I needs to be designed using a "mobile first" approach. It needs to be usable on a small (phone) screen, yet scale well on larger screens, with an reactive layout. The majority of users (90+ %) will expect an "app" for their mobile devices, rather than a desktop/laptop application. On mobile platforms, the majority of users (90+ %) won't care if the app is native or HTML5 - they don't know the difference and don't care.

[kewashi]

14 hours ago, madcodger said:

 NO, @kewashi, THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. I started it, and you have been an active contributor, but don't try to hijack it. Start your own if you wish. This thread was started to gauge the need/desire for a better user interface for the ISY. There appears to be some interest, which is great. But ANY developer is open to contribute, and discuss their ideas here. HousePanel may or may not fit the bill (personally, I'm not yet interested as it requires too much DIY for my tastes). If you want a HousePanel thread, go start one, or revive one. But please don't think this thread is all about your product. Contributions and ideas are welcome. Hijacking is not.

Okay man... my mistake. I did start a thread and I just got confused as I thought it was this one. All good. I will keep monitoring sentiments here too. Life is too short to get too excited about such small misunderstandings. 

[kewashi]

6 hours ago, jfai said:

On mobile platforms, the majority of users (90+ %) won't care if the app is native or HTML5 - they don't know the difference and don't care

Agree completely with this. This is why I am focusing on a HTML5 solution. 

[madcodger]

10 hours ago, kewashi said:

Okay man... my mistake. I did start a thread and I just got confused as I thought it was this one. All good. I will keep monitoring sentiments here too. Life is too short to get too excited about such small misunderstandings. 

We're good. Just want the thread to stay open to all developers and those who want to express their desires for a better user interface.

[madcodger]

17 hours ago, markv58 said:

@lilyoyo1 I am using command fusion and have spent hundreds of hours over the last year figuring it out and how to caress feedback out of ISY, especially the Polyglot nodes which don't like to give it up easily. I've figured just about everything out and am down to a bit of design (eye-candy) bits and pieces and creating some icons.

@madcodger @simplextech Now with that all done and a shell to work with I'm trying to figure out how long it will take to set something up for someone else. A user has already sent me his node data and credentials so I can start that process. I need to find the price point, how much will someone pay and how little will I accept. If those two points intersect somewhere reasonable then gauging interest would follow. If it's a matter of pasting addresses and credentials in existing commands and queries with a little adding, subtracting and arranging design elements I believe it's doable.

I would think that one of the appealing aspects would be that someone could take over the design after the initial setup since the heavy lifting was already done.

Will PM you. 

[madcodger]

16 hours ago, jfai said:

Generally speaking, for maximum interest and addressing the most use cases, the U/I needs to be designed using a "mobile first" approach. It needs to be usable on a small (phone) screen, yet scale well on larger screens, with an reactive layout. The majority of users (90+ %) will expect an "app" for their mobile devices, rather than a desktop/laptop application. On mobile platforms, the majority of users (90+ %) won't care if the app is native or HTML5 - they don't know the difference and don't care.

Absolutely agree. I can make programming changes, add new devices, other infrequent things via the admin console. I hate the java aspect of it, but it's workable, and IMO not worth a developer's time to recreate that wheel.  UDI will likely do so, in time. It's the "everyday / several times each day" use case of needing to JUST ACCESS devices on a mobile device that I'm primarily hoping can improve. Often, I don't even need to change something, but just need to see its status (particularly temperatures or open/close/occupancy" status, for me. 

One thing I've noticed in many past threads, and in some comments here, is that some think the desire is for an app that's "pretty". I don't much care about that. I just want it to be easy to quickly scan, understand, and if necessary, act. As noted earlier, I would actually be thrilled with something like Orchestrated Mobilinc or Agave if Wes / James respectively had continued to update either of those just a bit. And, I would be happy to pay a reasonable subscription fee (ongoing revenue) to help maintain whatever app(s) I decide to use. But if an app won't even list some of my needed devices (e.g., some fairly common z-wave devices not showing up), then it just becomes unworkable. That's not to criticize these developers, but rather to say that the need for a different solution - or reinvigoration of an existing solution -  appears to still exist. So, one thing I hope is not lost in all this is that I primarily see a need for FUNCTION that is not being met, as opposed to just a better FORM for delivering that. "Pretty" is in the eyes of the beholder. Whether or not all your devices are accessible is not. Hope that helps.

 

[auger66]

On 4/10/2020 at 11:16 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

A developer doing a personal project for an individual isn't choose to bring the same as developing a system for the isy in general for every single person to use. I can't speak on your specific situation with a developer but what this discussion is about is like comparing apples to Oranges.

Yours is a business deal that didn't work out vs someone advocating and speaking for a group as a collective.

Not knowing both sides and the details of your interaction, I can't speak on it. I'm sure clients that I've walked away from would speak bad about me at the same time not giving both sides of the story (and vice versus). Because of that it would be improper for Udi to get in the middle of things and not support a developer that had a product that works with their system

You're calling me out for being off-topic when we just took a long stroll down Windows-memory lane? By your reaction, it sounds more like I struck a nerve, especially since I qualified my post in the first sentence.

Since eKeypad is featured on UD's homepage, yes, I think UD would want to know. This thread is about an interface for ISY. I think others would want to know, too. I don't believe eKeypad is abandonware yet, but Jayson hasn't made a post in his own support forum since 2015. I knew that but decided to give eKeypad a shot, regardless.

If I had only purchased the app rather than trying to hire Jayson for a service he advertises himself, I would probably would have a different opinion of eKeypad. All he had to do was say he didn't offer that service anymore. Simple. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by auger66

[larryllix]

Well. Somebody bet get something going because VR with 3D controls will be coming in the soon requests.    

 

I think one of the big problems for GUI developers with HA, is almost every new device is a custom interface. I believe @Michel Kohanimattempted to address this at some high level HA political meeting. Devices need to have some sort of device descriptor attached so that every new device released next year doesn't require a whole reprogram of the GUI.

AFAIK every time a new device comes out our dedicated developers need to release a new UI. This applies to ISY also and will keep it in beta forever, the way it is currently going.

How many will support the next VR interface coming? Likely none for the next 5-10 years. Rewrite every step and for what? 100 users?

Edited April 12, 2020 by larryllix

[kewashi]

Hey @simplextech I'm so glad you brought me into this community -- everything talked about here is addressed by the design principles underlying HousePanel. I know it isn't a robust commercial product yet, but it is making its way in that direction. The important thing is the design supports just about any custom look and feel and you don't need to be a programmer to get that to happen. You do have to spend some time in the editor and/or customizer tweaking your look and feel.  

On the point about new devices coming onto the market, a new UI isn't needed if the UI developed is designed to query capabilities and then allow the user to implement a human-based interpretation of that in a standard format such as CSS -- this is what HousePanel does. So devices that don't exist today can still be displayed by HousePanel later as long as a human makes the interface between the queried capabilities and the desired on screen behavior.

Recently @tazman made this very creative GUI with HousePanel - complete with spinning fans when turned on. 

I will keep updating folks on when this is a plug and play pro style feature. Shouldn't be long....

 

[Envirogreen]

Are you able to create multiple pages with this?

I had irules before and had the primary page much like a control 4 layout and hoping this fills the bill

I’ve been looking for an irules replacement (without cloud) and really hope this is it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[markv58]

49 minutes ago, Envirogreen said:

Are you able to create multiple pages with this?

I had irules before and had the primary page much like a control 4 layout and hoping this fills the bill

I’ve been looking for an irules replacement (without cloud) and really hope this is it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are to talking about HousePanel or the ISY app I'm working on?

As for me, I am up to 31 pages currently and 188 objects. I've been working a few hours a day on refining the GUI for visibility and efficiency as well as control and feedback.

 

[Envirogreen]

As was asking about house panel. But yours looks like a nice app

[jwagner010]

Wow just came across this thread.  Clearly a hot item for many of us.  HousePanel looks really interesting, when/if it ever moves to the NodeServer store on POLISY happy to jump in at that point and provide testing and customer feedback.  I have just completed a full gut renovation with 95% z-wave devices and 5% Insteon now.  Have chosen to ditch Mobilinc Pro (simply doesn't work for me with z-wave and various sub-nodes), will use UDI Ajax in the interim on my iPhone and will sit and wait patiently and see what happens here with UDI, HousePanel and the other things in the works here.  Will not hold my breath as we have been talking about these things for many years, but I have hope.  HousePanel looks like the closest thing I have seen in a long time that could be configured for my needs.  Keep up the great work everyone, glad to see we can have a respectful debate even if many of us don't like the answers.  Cheers

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by jwagner010

[KMabry01]

On 3/28/2020 at 5:49 PM, kewashi said:

I completely agree and totally get it.  HousePanel at present is transitioning from "hobby" mode to "pro" mode - but it isn't there yet. I just finished making some videos that given instructions for setting it up. Next I will make an automatic script. Next I am investigating an automated setup that just works by installing onto a Polisy box. Its all work in progress. I know there is a market out there for this for all the reasons you stated which is why I'm motivated to make the transition. Stay tuned. 

In the meantime, if you or others want to use it as-is, these videos should help:

 

Recent install... any concern?

npm WARN npm npm does not support Node.js v10.24.0
npm WARN npm You should probably upgrade to a newer version of node as we
npm WARN npm can't make any promises that npm will work with this version.
npm WARN npm Supported releases of Node.js are the latest release of 4, 6, 7, 8, 9.
npm WARN npm You can find the latest version at https://nodejs.org/
 

[kewashi]

You have to install HP from GitHub and then do npm install. 

[fasttimes]

On 3/24/2020 at 6:10 PM, oberkc said:

Neither do I want to offend you, but I suspect most of the folks here are happy with their ISY-994 and are not really interested in throwing that investment of time and money away, moving to Home Assistant.  Besides, there is no user interface that would satisfy everyone and I have no doubt some would complain about the interface of Home Assistant.

Home Assistant is superior to the ISY in most facets.  I rarely use the ISY admin or Portal anymore.  The one thing the ISY excels at is working with Insteon devices.  Programming them, creating scenes, and replacing dead switches.   But for “home automation”, HA is just so much easier to work with. 

[KSchex]

I couldn't resist commenting...As a person that lacks mobility relying on "remote" control; I find the ISY affords me extremely reliable non stop failure free operation with Z-Wave.  Fortunately I am able to write my own software hense a tailored UI to my needs.  I don't mind saying if I could interface my home spun sensors to HA easily, with HTTP protocol, I would consider HA.  I do like the UI possibilities.  Unfortunately, HA would be an indepth learning experience with got-chas along the way, relying on forums for assistance.  Best of luck..

[asbril]

22 hours ago, fasttimes said:

Home Assistant is superior to the ISY in most facets.  I rarely use the ISY admin or Portal anymore.  The one thing the ISY excels at is working with Insteon devices.  Programming them, creating scenes, and replacing dead switches.   But for “home automation”, HA is just so much easier to work with. 

I disagree. I find ISY way more powerful and not just with Insteon. I am a non-Insteon person, with some 80 Zwave and also some wifi devices. I use HA for UI to my ISY, and indeed HA is an excellent UI, but the engine behind my home automation is ISY. The Polisy is very powerful and I suspect that Polisy is only at its beginning.

Furthermore, I would not be surprised that the new UD Mobile App will be duplicated into a browser application, and then I may not need HA anymore.

[lilyoyo1]

On 6/20/2021 at 8:54 AM, fasttimes said:

Home Assistant is superior to the ISY in most facets.  I rarely use the ISY admin or Portal anymore.  The one thing the ISY excels at is working with Insteon devices.  Programming them, creating scenes, and replacing dead switches.   But for “home automation”, HA is just so much easier to work with. 

Superior is ones perspective. I've dabbled with HA but prefer programming the Isy vs HA. Yes, HA can work with more devices but i don't necessarily need a million different things just because. I need a select few devices that will do exactly what I want them to do, when I want them to do it, every single time. 

When it comes to those 3 things, the isy accomplishes them (yes things still happen) better than HA. The one thing HA does better than the ISY is it's app. There's simply no comparison to it from the Udi app. Hopefully over time, Udi will improve the app in that regard. For now, it cannot compete. 

Outside of me changing or adding something, I never use the admin console, portal, or an app. Voice control is used where an app would be needed (relaxing and too lazy to get up). For me, an app requires too many steps to accomplish a mundane task. I have to open my phone, find the app, wait for it to open and sync, find the room (or favorites) then device I want to control. I could've gotten up and hit the switch after all that. 

My focus is on automation. I'm trying to get things to a point where keypads, interfaces, and voice are really non-existent. I may not get there completely but even now, I only use physical interaction with my automated stuff 3-4 times a day. 

While the UI may not be pretty, the admin console does allow me to work towards that. Hopefully once ported to Polisy, the power of it will allow things to run much smoother allowing for even less interaction

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

@lilyoyo1I agree in that I want automation and I don't want numeric keypads and touchscreens on my walls.  I kinda laugh out load at the HA geeks that are asking questions about the best way to power an Amazon tablet they want on the wall.  I don't want things on the wall.  In fact there's really a half dozen switches in my kitchen I wish I could hide, because we only touch one, the one we do touch does different scenes with the rest of the outdated switches based on time of day. 

We do get tired of Alexa tho.  She's hears wrong at least several times a day.  Which results in more talking.  Plus it interrupts conversations etc...

In general I like to use buttons to actuate most automatons either KPL, HA (the most frequently used being easy to find home screen widgets on my phone) or in some cases I've hidden a few buttons... specifically Insteon hidden door sensors.. they actually aren't attached to doors, they are just a hidden button (3 are outside, 1 inside) that my wife and I know where are.  Push and release to run an ISY program, one even has a second double click program.  

I've noticed Smarthome appears to have deleted the hidden door sensor, it's not just out of stock anymore.  I did pick up a bunch of the surface mounted version when they were on sale with the idea that I could add a button to the cover if I need to invent a button, but I really wish there was more button options in the marketplace to be used with programmable controllers like the ISY.