Someone Please Tell Me How This Happens

[apostolakisl]

Yesterday, I turned on my closet light (2477d) and it only ramped up to like 30% instead of the usual 100%.  Thought I must have let my finger dwell on the switch for fade up.  But no, somehow it was now set as an on-level of something in the 30% range.  I checked ISY and the switch showed an on-level of 100% on the main console.  I checked the links and there were extra links and incorrect links.  HOW!!!!  This isn't the first time, random links appear.  I haven't done any ISY links programming on any switch for a few weeks.  I just don't get how these things appear out of nowhere.

[Teken]

Yesterday, I turned on my closet light (2477d) and it only ramped up to like 30% instead of the usual 100%.  Thought I must have let my finger dwell on the switch for fade up.  But no, somehow it was now set as an on-level of something in the 30% range.  I checked ISY and the switch showed an on-level of 100% on the main console.  I checked the links and there were extra links and incorrect links.  HOW!!!!  This isn't the first time, random links appear.  I haven't done any ISY links programming on any switch for a few weeks.  I just don't get how these things appear out of nowhere.

Can you show us what the new links are in the system? I’ve never seen this before so very curious.


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[apostolakisl]

3 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

Can you show us what the new links are in the system? I’ve never seen this before so very curious.


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Already over-wrote the links.  This switch really didn't have any links as it was not part of any scenes.  I had some programs written for it, but no scenes.  It only is supposed to have 3 links in the table but it had 5 and only 2 were correct.

Just about a month ago, I had another switch with incorrect links that just appeared out of the blue.  It somehow got tied to another scene and when I turned that scene on, the mis-behaving switch turned off.  Not only was turning off incorrect, but it wasn't supposed to be part of that scene at all.  Now in this case, I had to complete erase the switch from ISY and start over with it because ISY also had the links wrong.

[Teken]

Already over-wrote the links.  This switch really didn't have any links as it was not part of any scenes.  I had some programs written for it, but no scenes.  It only is supposed to have 3 links in the table but it had 5 and only 2 were correct.
Just about a month ago, I had another switch with incorrect links that just appeared out of the blue.  It somehow got tied to another scene and when I turned that scene on, the mis-behaving switch turned off.  Not only was turning off incorrect, but it wasn't supposed to be part of that scene at all.  Now in this case, I had to complete erase the switch from ISY and start over with it because ISY also had the links wrong.

Possible this was due to a past restore that wasn’t current in hardware configuration?


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[giomania]

This is not really related but I recently upgraded to version five and I have one scene that is wonky

one of the devices controlled by the scene will turn on and then off again a second later the odd thing is that when you execute the voice command through the portal the scene works fine but when you press the button on the keypad it exhibits this behavior.

I have looked at the traffic but I don’t really know enough about how everything works to determine what is causing this and I have reset the controller switch and the responder switch but it still exhibits this behavior.

Mark


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[apostolakisl]

3 minutes ago, giomania said:

This is not really related but I recently upgraded to version five and I have one scene that is wonky

one of the devices controlled by the scene will turn on and then off again a second later the odd thing is that when you execute the voice command through the portal the scene works fine but when you press the button on the keypad it exhibits this behavior.

I have looked at the traffic but I don’t really know enough about how everything works to determine what is causing this and I have reset the controller switch and the responder switch but it still exhibits this behavior.

Mark


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When you use ISY to execute a scene (which is what happens from a voice command) the PLM is executes the scene, kind of like it was a switch that got presses (not exactly).  When you press a paddle on a switch, that switch executes the scene.  A bad link between that switch you pressed and the mis-behaving switch can exist when a bad link between the plm and mis-behaving switch doesn't exist.  I have had things like this happen as well where controlling a scene from one device works fine and controlling the same scene from a different device does not.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

 

Possible this was due to a past restore that wasn’t current in hardware configuration?


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If you mean an ISY restore, that can't be it.  I haven't restored my isy from a backup since going from 99i to 994i.  

[Teken]

If you mean an ISY restore, that can't be it.  I haven't restored my isy from a backup since going from 99i to 994i.  

You haven’t replaced the 2413S PLM since your 99 Series Controller?!?


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[giomania]

When you use ISY to execute a scene (which is what happens from a voice command) the PLM is executes the scene, kind of like it was a switch that got presses (not exactly).  When you press a paddle on a switch, that switch executes the scene.  A bad link between that switch you pressed and the mis-behaving switch can exist when a bad link between the plm and mis-behaving switch doesn't exist.  I have had things like this happen as well where controlling a scene from one device works fine and controlling the same scene from a different device does not.

Thanks now I finally understand why every scene has essentially two controllers that had to be set up the same if you wanted to operate the same whether via voice command or a button press.

I had tried restoring the links to the misbehaving device to the controller button on the keypad and that fixed it for a minute but it reverted when I tried to fix something else. Perhaps I should try restoring the link to the PLM controller of the scene?


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[apostolakisl]

34 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

You haven’t replaced the 2413S PLM since your 99 Series Controller?!?


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plm restore, thought you meant isy restore.  Yes, I have had to restore plm at least twice and yes I do blame that for bad links in the pats.  But last plm replacement was over a year ago and 2 of my link problems have happened in the last couple months.  This one just started 2 days ago.  I can't say what links were there prior to the problem since I didn't check.  The local on level being wrong  is also a first time ever problem.  I don't know that the local on level shows up in the links table at all.  Maybe the bad links aren't even related.

[Teken]

plm restore, thought you meant isy restore.  Yes, I have had to restore plm at least twice and yes I do blame that for bad links in the pats.  But last plm replacement was over a year ago and 2 of my link problems have happened in the last couple months.  This one just started 2 days ago.  I can't say what links were there prior to the problem since I didn't check.  The local on level being wrong  is also a first time ever problem.  I don't know that the local on level shows up in the links table at all.  Maybe the bad links aren't even related.

Just off the top of my head the three things that come to mind are these:

Hardware: The old hardware was added and the erase previous links were not selected during the enrolment. New hardware was added and a hard reset was not done and some test links were present.

2413S PLM: As noted during a PLM restore a older backup had other hardware links in place.

Tap Link: Perhaps at some point manual linking was done and were not removed.

Going off memory I’ve never seen ghost links just appear in a system. The closet thing I’ve heard is dual controller scenario like a hub & ISY.


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[apostolakisl]

49 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

Just off the top of my head the three things that come to mind are these:

Hardware: The old hardware was added and the erase previous links were not selected during the enrolment. New hardware was added and a hard reset was not done and some test links were present.

2413S PLM: As noted during a PLM restore a older backup had other hardware links in place.

Tap Link: Perhaps at some point manual linking was done and were not removed.

Going off memory I’ve never seen ghost links just appear in a system. The closet thing I’ve heard is dual controller scenario like a hub & ISY.


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pretty much every single device I own has at least one extra link and at least one mismatch.  All of these devices were installed using ISY.  I have erased extra links in the past, only to have the device have extra links again at some later time.  Probably related to plm replacment, which of course I did with ISY command.

 

Below is a typical example.

[Teken]

pretty much every single device I own has at least one extra link and at least one mismatch.  All of these devices were installed using ISY.  I have erased extra links in the past, only to have the device have extra links again at some later time.  Probably related to plm replacment, which of course I did with ISY command.
 
Below is a typical example.

I suppose the next logical question is do any of these extra links relate to physical hardware in your Insteon network?

It’s one thing to see real hardware in place and mistakingly be linked to something. But, it’s completely different to see unknown hardware which you have never owned or had in place which show up.

One thing I can say is never just rely on the controller to delete existing links vs doing so via hard reset!! I know this because someone gave me a test unit that was supposedly cleared and when I added the device and selected clear all existing links the system didn’t do it.

I only found out because the system constantly cried it was missing X hardware / couldn’t communicate with X. After much review, like you, the system showed links to hardware I never ever had!

So if you bought used hardware and never completed a hard reset that could be one reason for ghost links in one specific instance.



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[apostolakisl]

7 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

I suppose the next logical question is do any of these extra links relate to physical hardware in your Insteon network?

It’s one thing to see real hardware in place and mistakingly be linked to something. But, it’s completely different to see unknown hardware which you have never owned or had in place which show up.

One thing I can say is never just rely on the controller to delete existing links vs doing so via hard reset!! I know this because someone gave me a test unit that was supposedly cleared and when I added the device and selected clear all existing links the system didn’t do it.

I only found out because the system constantly cried it was missing X hardware / couldn’t communicate with X. After much review, like you, the system showed links to hardware I never ever had!

So if you bought used hardware and never completed a hard reset that could be one reason for ghost links in one specific instance.



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All brand new stuff.  A few years ago replaced my entire Insteon network to dual band with Christmas sale.

EDIT: and had quite a few issues with using replace device.  I had to delete many items and start from scratch.

[larryllix]

According to my selection of Insteon toys the Insteon addresses 51.10.BC fall just lower than my batche of  Motion Sensor Insteon address range..

My guess is there is a very old versions of MSes that doesn't exist anymore and you havea  half link still installed in your PLM/ISY or  you have one of your "Don't write to battery devices" features enabled. I have found this can cause serious problems and may lock your ISY completely up trying to write updates to devices that cannot acknowledge.

This may take a clear out of your PLM and rebuild it from ISY process.

The other Insteon address 2A.1A.5C is very close to my PLM (2A.1C.95) so my guess on that one, is an old PLM that you replaced and all the links didn't get removed with a failed auto update process.

I checked about a dozen devices and none of mine show any link mismatches except for where the initial 2A and AA get changed in the natural Insteon process.

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

According to my selection of Insteon toys the Insteon addresses 51.10.BC fall just lower than my batche of  Motion Sensor Insteon address range..

My guess is there is a very old versions of MSes that doesn't exist anymore and you havea  half link still installed in your PLM/ISY or  you have one of your "Don't write to battery devices" features enabled. I have found this can cause serious problems and may lock your ISY completely up trying to write updates to devices that cannot acknowledge.

This may take a clear out of your PLM and rebuild it from ISY process.

The other Insteon address 2A.1A.5C is very close to my PLM (2A.1C.95) so my guess on that one, is an old PLM that you replaced and all the links didn't get removed with a failed auto update process.

I checked about a dozen devices and none of mine show any link mismatches except for where the initial 2A and AA get changed in the natural Insteon process.

I don't currently nor have I ever owned an Insteon battery operated device.  I have gone through my devices, and ALL of them have links tables that are similarly corrupted.  Despite this, only a random device here and there don't function properly.   I am going through and restoring every device in batches of about 20.  Almost done.

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I don't currently nor have I ever owned an Insteon battery operated device.  I have gone through my devices, and ALL of them have links tables that are similarly corrupted.  Despite this, only a random device here and there don't function properly.   I am going through and restoring every device in batches of about 20.  Almost done.

Did you ever replace your PLM?

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Did you ever replace your PLM?

Yes, of course.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

Yes, of course.

See my post above. One address looks like my PLM's address. Could be a failed ISY auto-process leaving a link that keeps getting installed.

[Teken]

All brand new stuff.  A few years ago replaced my entire Insteon network to dual band with Christmas sale.
EDIT: and had quite a few issues with using replace device.  I had to delete many items and start from scratch.

A failed (replace with) is another root cause for erroneous links to be seen in the system. Another possible reason is a failing Micro SD card in the system.

Earlier this year Michel assisted me in the recovery and replacement of the same. The card had hundreds of bad writes with cryptic characters in the place of expected values and names.

Since than I’ve been slowly migrating all the different hardware that use memory cards to high endurance ones.


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[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

 

A failed (replace with) is another root cause for erroneous links to be seen in the system. Another possible reason is a failing Micro SD card in the system.

Earlier this year Michel assisted me in the recovery and replacement of the same. The card had hundreds of bad writes with cryptic characters in the place of expected values and names.

Since than I’ve been slowly migrating all the different hardware that use memory cards to high endurance ones.


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I would think that this scenario would leave links in the ISY database.  Not sure exactly where a replace with error occurs.  I went through and restored every single device in my house and they now all match ISY table to device table.  

However, I have definitely had ISY tables be bad which would be a logic issue with ISY, not a write error.  I have had to completely remove devices and re-add them building all the scenes back up manually.  I have also had "replace with" commands that wouldn't work and required me to re-build those devices from scratch as well.  I posted about them a couple years ago and had several with the problem and it was reproducible.  In other words, I factory reset and restored the devices again and the issues were still there.  These replacements were 2476 to 2477 which you would not expect any compatibility issues.  I would have to dig through the archives to recall exactly what the error was but I could not fix it except by starting from scratch.  If I recall, even if I removed the device from all scenes, ISY still listed links in its table.  And just a few weeks ago I had a device that somehow got linked to a scene that it was never before linked to and where ISY link-tree indicated that it was not linked to.   I had that happen once before a few years ago where a device got linked to a random unrelated scene.  This one took me a long time to figure out because the other scene was in a totally different part of the house, so I just kept randomly seeing a light set wrong but didn't see it become wrong to realize what was causing it.

My gut feeling on all of this is that replacing the PLM is the source of problems.

[Teken]

I would think that this scenario would leave links in the ISY database.  Not sure exactly where a replace with error occurs.  I went through and restored every single device in my house and they now all match ISY table to device table.  
However, I have definitely had ISY tables be bad which would be a logic issue with ISY, not a write error.  I have had to completely remove devices and re-add them building all the scenes back up manually.  I have also had "replace with" commands that wouldn't work and required me to re-build those devices from scratch as well.  I posted about them a couple years ago and had several with the problem and it was reproducible.  In other words, I factory reset and restored the devices again and the issues were still there.  These replacements were 2476 to 2477 which you would not expect any compatibility issues.  I would have to dig through the archives to recall exactly what the error was but I could not fix it except by starting from scratch.  If I recall, even if I removed the device from all scenes, ISY still listed links in its table.  And just a few weeks ago I had a device that somehow got linked to a scene that it was never before linked to and where ISY link-tree indicated that it was not linked to.   I had that happen once before a few years ago where a device got linked to a random unrelated scene.  This one took me a long time to figure out because the other scene was in a totally different part of the house, so I just kept randomly seeing a light set wrong but didn't see it become wrong to realize what was causing it.
My gut feeling on all of this is that replacing the PLM is the source of problems.

Been there - Done that! If only we could see the future of (replace with failing) vs just do a scratch install. I’ve wasted more time doing both than I care to admit.


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[apostolakisl]

Here is the thread I started 2 years ago about the replace with not working.  This was a weird one where the admin console would not display the correct status of the device after a replace with.  Installing the device from scratch did not have this problem, so something screwy about the links ISY was writing to the device.

 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I would think that this scenario would leave links in the ISY database.  Not sure exactly where a replace with error occurs.  I went through and restored every single device in my house and they now all match ISY table to device table.  

However, I have definitely had ISY tables be bad which would be a logic issue with ISY, not a write error.  I have had to completely remove devices and re-add them building all the scenes back up manually.  I have also had "replace with" commands that wouldn't work and required me to re-build those devices from scratch as well.  I posted about them a couple years ago and had several with the problem and it was reproducible.  In other words, I factory reset and restored the devices again and the issues were still there.  These replacements were 2476 to 2477 which you would not expect any compatibility issues.  I would have to dig through the archives to recall exactly what the error was but I could not fix it except by starting from scratch.  If I recall, even if I removed the device from all scenes, ISY still listed links in its table.  And just a few weeks ago I had a device that somehow got linked to a scene that it was never before linked to and where ISY link-tree indicated that it was not linked to.   I had that happen once before a few years ago where a device got linked to a random unrelated scene.  This one took me a long time to figure out because the other scene was in a totally different part of the house, so I just kept randomly seeing a light set wrong but didn't see it become wrong to realize what was causing it.

My gut feeling on all of this is that replacing the PLM is the source of problems.

Trouble with a system like ISY is it isn't interactive. When a setup routine fails on a device or somewhere in the process..."Who ya gonna' call?"

I had problems with an early version of polyglot. When I removed my ecobee NS, it attempted to remove the SN nodes, and devices, and deleted all almost every program that contained any reference to those nodes. Fair enough... but it only deleted the programs listings and didn't delete the programs themselves. I think some of those programs were still running for about a year, causing me ISY busy problems. I was told to delete them a few times as they crashed out in every ISY boot-up log but could not be found. They were also found in my backups so despite factory resetting my ISY they would never go away and there was no way to get rid of them.

Finally I unzipped a backup, found the numerical representation of the hidden programs from the error logs, deleted the offending programs from the backup directory files, and then re-double zipped the remainders into a backup file with the appropriate name extension. Restored that into ISY and the offending programs are now gone, allowing ISY to boot-up without dozens of lines of errors complaining about offending programs that I didn't have.

So some of these maintenance features that can save human time can be a problem when they mess up due to whatever can mess them up.