Motions sensors stopped sending signals to ISY

[ISY Newbie]

I'm now back in my summer home and have noticed that MS-triggered programs have stopped working.

I initially suspected battery drain, but they are fine.

In fact, none of my motion sensors seem to be sending signals to my ISY.

Rebooting the ISY didn't help.

What gives?  I've also noticed that system remains busy unusually long upon starting the admin console, whether it's related to the MS issue or not.

[lilyoyo1]

What does the event viewer show when you set it to level 3

[ISY Newbie]

19 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

What does the event viewer show when you set it to level 3

It shows nothing. Just to make sure, I've cleared the event viewer and triggered multiple motion sensors, but nothing registers, except for a [time] log, which I assume is just what it says.

This doesn't seem normal, does it? 

[lilyoyo1]

Does the status of your switches show up in the isy properly

[ISY Newbie]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:15 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Does the status of your switches show up in the isy properly

I think so. They properly reflect the dimness level, and I can turn them off and on from the admin console.

 

But things are definitely amiss.  In addition to the motion sensors not communicating with ISY, scene controls are not working. Light switches that used to control scene now only control individual light only.

Some programs are not working altogether - for example, one that are designed to turn lights off automatically after a pre-set duration. Others are really thrown off - a "cold weather" alert that I set up for my kids based on the weather forecast was triggered this morning on a 80-degree day!

It's chaotic. Where do I begin?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, ISY Newbie said:

I think so. They properly reflect the dimness level, and I can turn them off and on from the admin console.

 

But things are definitely amiss.  In addition to the motion sensors not communicating with ISY, scene controls are not working. Light switches that used to control scene now only control individual light only.

Some programs are not working altogether - for example, one that are designed to turn lights off automatically after a pre-set duration. Others are really thrown off - a "cold weather" alert that I set up for my kids based on the weather forecast was triggered this morning on a 80-degree day!

It's chaotic. Where do I begin?

Controlling them from the console doesn't mean anything. Does the admin console update the status properly of the switch when it's manually turned on?

Links are stored in the devices themselves if you set up your scenes as controllers and responders. They wouldn't all suddenly stoo at the same time. 

I would seek someone locally who understands insteon and the isy to go over things with you.  

[Brian H]

Have you looked at the Link Database in the PLM used by the ISY994i?

Tools. Diagnostics. Show PLM Link Table. If it is empty or has very few entries. You may want to try a Restore Modem (PLM). 

Almost empty or empty Link Database is one of the signs of a PLM is starting to fail. You know how old it is?  Over two years old is when we have seen them start to fail.

[ISY Newbie]

13 hours ago, Brian H said:

Have you looked at the Link Database in the PLM used by the ISY994i?

Tools. Diagnostics. Show PLM Link Table. If it is empty or has very few entries. You may want to try a Restore Modem (PLM). 

Almost empty or empty Link Database is one of the signs of a PLM is starting to fail. You know how old it is?  Over two years old is when we have seen them start to fail.

They are completely empty... Unless they take inordinately long to populate. I've waited for over 5 minutes.

I think the PLM is at least 4 years old.

How do you restore PLM?  https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Restore_Modem_.28PLM.29 assumes that you've replaced the modem first. Can I just try restoring it without replacing it first?

[lilyoyo1]

43 minutes ago, ISY Newbie said:

They are completely empty... Unless they take inordinately long to populate. I've waited for over 5 minutes.

I think the PLM is at least 4 years old.

How do you restore PLM?  https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Restore_Modem_.28PLM.29 assumes that you've replaced the modem first. Can I just try restoring it without replacing it first?

If you're not showing any links I would rerun it again to make sure. If still no, you'll want to replace your plm. You can restore your current one but if it's dying it's still going to go back out

[Brian H]

Yes you can do the procedure with out changing the PLM. As long as you had the PLM powered up first. So it is detected when the ISY994i boots.

The PLM Link Database is populated as you add or change things in the installation. So it should have links in it. If you have any modules in use now.

If the Motion Sensors links where not in the PLM. That would explain why they are not being seen.

Restore Modem (PLM) is used when you replace the PLM. It also will rewrite the links the ISY994i knows about to the present PLM. As long as you powered up the PLM first so it was seen when the ISY994i booted.

[ISY Newbie]

20 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Controlling them from the console doesn't mean anything. Does the admin console update the status properly of the switch when it's manually turned on?

Links are stored in the devices themselves if you set up your scenes as controllers and responders. They wouldn't all suddenly stoo at the same time. 

I would seek someone locally who understands insteon and the isy to go over things with you.  

Yes, the admin console update the status properly of switches when they are manually turned on.  What does that mean?

Also, if some scenes no longer work from the switch, does that indicate an issue with ISY or PLM or both?

(I have a scene that turns off all basement lights controlled the basement stairs switch, but it doesn't work anymore.)

[lilyoyo1]

17 minutes ago, ISY Newbie said:

Yes, the admin console update the status properly of switches when they are manually turned on.  What does that mean?

Also, if some scenes no longer work from the switch, does that indicate an issue with ISY or PLM or both?

(I have a scene that turns off all basement lights controlled the basement stairs switch, but it doesn't work anymore.)

It's neither. If done right, scenes activated locally have nothing to do with the isy nor plm. Your best bet is to have someone look at what you're doing wrong locally

[ISY Newbie]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

Yes you can do the procedure with out changing the PLM. As long as you had the PLM powered up first. So it is detected when the ISY994i boots.

The PLM Link Database is populated as you add or change things in the installation. So it should have links in it. If you have any modules in use now.

If the Motion Sensors links where not in the PLM. That would explain why they are not being seen.

Restore Modem (PLM) is used when you replace the PLM. It also will rewrite the links the ISY994i knows about to the present PLM. As long as you powered up the PLM first so it was seen when the ISY994i booted.

Restoring the PLM for a second time worked.

What does that mean? Do I still need to replace the PLM for possible impending failure?

[Brian H]

I think I would replace it. If it was over 2 years old.

Sometimes restoring the PLM would work for awhile and then the database would get corrupted or lost again.

There is a real long  thread here on how we rebuilt ours and has problems found by users. You may find the symptoms found interesting. Even if you would not think of rebuilding your old one. As Revision 2.5 has some improvements in the power supply and serial daughter board.

https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13866-repair-of-2413s-plm-when-the-power-supply-fails/

[ISY Newbie]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

I think I would replace it. If it was over 2 years old.

Sometimes restoring the PLM would work for awhile and then the database would get corrupted or lost again.

There is a real long  thread here on how we rebuilt ours and has problems found by users. You may find the symptoms found interesting. Even if you would not think of rebuilding your old one. As Revision 2.5 has some improvements in the power supply and serial daughter board.

https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13866-repair-of-2413s-plm-when-the-power-supply-fails/

Thanks so much for helping and sharing the link.

[madcodger]

PLM = Achilles heel of Insteon. If your ISY supports z-wave or zigbee, I wonder if this might be a good time to a motion sensor supported by those protocols?

[ISY Newbie]

4 hours ago, madcodger said:

PLM = Achilles heel of Insteon. If your ISY supports z-wave or zigbee, I wonder if this might be a good time to a motion sensor supported by those protocols?

Intersting point.

Now I’m confused.  The Insteon motions sensors are communicating wirelessly to ISY anyways, not through the power line, right? But somehow, the failure of the PLM halted ISY’s programs that are triggered by Insteon wireless motion sensors (as well as a host of other programs and even scenes.)

Will it be different if my motion sensors are z-wave or zigbee-based wireless motion sensors? 

[Brian H]

If the motion sensor's or any other Insteon modules  links are not in the PLM. It will ignore the messages. If they trigger a program through the PLM. If a modules link database has missing links. It can also ignore message sent to it. As part of the Insteon Messaging uses  the six  digit ID for sending and receiving Insteon messages. If their is no ID in the PLM or other Insteon module. It ignores the message as not sent to me.

If they can directly control a module then they still should work. Like the Motion Sensor is in a scene directly linked to the responders and not triggering something in the ISY994i to then control the modules.

The motion sensors RF messages can also be received by a different Dual Band Module and passed on over the power lines. Since the Motion Sensor II has a range of 150 feet with no obstructions. Sensors on the other end of a home or different floor have to go through another Dual Band Module or range extender to get back to the PLM.

Z-Wave modules go through the Z-Wave daughter board and do not have a Insteon Link in the PLM. If you are strictly Z-Wave you don't even need a PLM and the Z-Wave version of the  firmware doesn't  do  the  PLM found test. At boot up of the ISY994i

[madcodger]

17 hours ago, Brian H said:

If you are strictly Z-Wave you don't even need a PLM 

This is my situation (now) for two different ISYs at the same property (two buildings). Works great, with repeaters. My previous two ISY installations were all Insteon, and I was happy with them. I just decided for this property that I would try z-wave, largely to get away from a single supplier of equipment for switches, etc. One could argue that the z-wave daughter board also creates a single point of failure, similar to a PLM, but I've heard of very few failures of daughter boards compared to PLMs. The biggest problem with z-wave motion sensors is that most are battery-powered, and battery-powered devices tend to be less reliable, in my experience. I certainly wouldn't advocate scrapping an installed Insteon system just to get z-wave. But if you have an ISY that can make use of z-wave or zigbee, I think they're worth considering as an add-on. But the Aeotec repeaters, though, to greatly improve reliability.

[gviliunas]

2 hours ago, madcodger said:

The biggest problem with z-wave motion sensors is that most are battery-powered, and battery-powered devices tend to be less reliable, in my experience.

I agree with you that battery-powered devices are a bit more trouble first in that they require batteries and second that they need to be awake for parameter changes and third, they don't help your Z-wave mesh by acting as repeaters. Also, there may be queue issues if you use Adjust Scene and don't disable writing to battery-powered devices - Don't know if this has been fixed (I don't use adjust scene anymore)

FWIW....Over the past three years, I've had very good luck with the Aeontech Multisensor 6 sensors. About 1/2 of my MS6 sensors are battery-powered and the other 1/2 are powered via USB (and act as repeaters). The MS6 can be USB powered. For me, with ISY 5.1.0, all of these are  reliable, integrate well with ISY, and don't cause "configuration drama."

One thing to note if you attempt to include Z-Wave devices that can be powered by battery or USB. Be sure to factory-reset and then include the device in ISY with the device powered as you intend to use them. If you power an MS6 via USB, include it into your ISY network and then later change to batteries, you will be changing batteries Very Often as the device will be included as an always-on device and won't use its power-saving features. I made this mistake with a Go Control thermostat.