Insteon being discontinued?

[sorka]

3 hours ago, MrBill said:

It was awesome, saved me over $300 on comparable Insteon devices.  However read this thread, it's come to our attention lately that they are disabling local network access.

I think the potential for a company to reach and out disable the plugs remotely nixes the idea of me trying these plugs. There can't be a chance that they don't respond to the ISY just because an update was pushed. Even if there's a setting to prevent updates, there's nothing to say they couldn't force an update anyways. There'd need to be some promise in writing that they'd never remove local control. 

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, sorka said:

You mean like with a setting that allows us to choose the legacy behavior so all of us that had the style of sensor that worked properly can have new sensors that continue to work properly?

It was probably 3 lines of code to make the change they did and probably another 100 lines of code to have the behavior selectable. But as far as please everyone? SH seems to be in the business of not pleasing anyone.

There are plenty of people pleased. Just not on here. Insteon is making products for their customers which may not mean power users who choose to use them. Its all about who something is designed for.

This is why many companies are moving away from power users and going towards mass market. They have simpler needs. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Michel Kohanim]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is why many companies are moving away from power users and going towards mass market. They have simpler needs. 

Well, it really depends. I remember a few years back, all the hype was "integrators" and a whole line just for them. Then, everything became the hub. Then, the App by a genius from xxx. And now the mass market with Nokia. Again, I never question their decisions. What I question is their loyalty to their existing customer base (including integrators).

A simple and transparent messaging would have gone a long way. Even if it said something like: due to xyz, we're shifting our focus to w. And, therefore, these products will be EOL by this date.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

[sorka]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There are plenty of people pleased. Just not on here. Insteon is making products for their customers which may not mean power users who choose to use them. Its all about who something is designed for.

This is why many companies are moving away from power users and going towards mass market. They have simpler needs. 

If they're going to go that route, then they'd better start making products priced at that level too. .i.e Kasa 15 amp on/off smart plugs for $5.75 ($23 for a 4 pack) each rather than $50 (each) like Insteon.

I think of Insteon as a professional level product that would normally be installed by a professional installer and configured for the end user who has no idea how to install or configure but wants it to do what they want without having to mess with it again.

Edited July 28, 2021 by sorka

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, sorka said:

If they're going to go that route, then they'd better start making products priced at that level too. .i.e Kasa 15 amp on/off smart plugs for $5.75 ($23 for a 4 pack) each rather than $50 (each) like Insteon.

I think of Insteon as a professional level product that would normally be installed by a professional installer and configured for the end user who has no idea how to install or configure but wants it to do what they want without having to mess with it again.

But it's not a professional product. Professionals may use it as an entry level product but that is not who insteon is marketing.

Insteon doesn't have to lower their price to compete. There are those willing to buy the cheapest product for any given reason and there are others willing to pay a premium for others

Professional level products are generally dealer only and cost many times more then insteon. Control 4, Creation, Savant, all fall into this category

[Teken]

But it's not a professional product. Professionals may use it as an entry level product but that is not who insteon is marketing.
Insteon doesn't have to lower their price to compete. There are those willing to buy the cheapest product for any given reason and there are others willing to pay a premium for others
Professional level products are generally dealer only and cost many times more then insteon. Control 4, Creation, Savant, all fall into this category

Speaking for myself only Insteon doesn’t need to race to the bottom like everyone else. As the market has proven someone will fill that market need at the price point wanted.

What Smartlabs (Insteon) must do is stop using the cheapest components inside the hardware all the while charging a premium!

There are millions of companies that have proven a good middle ground can be found that balanced value, performance, reliability, and profits! The only reason any company uses cheap components is pure greed nothing else.

What crawls up my aszz when this topic comes up is the fact Smartlabs went out of their way after having an epiphany that dual wide voltage and frequency should be employed in their 3rd generation of hardware. On the surface this was a huge win to all of us as doing so would allow the hardware by default be more resilient from electrical surge / sag events.

Yet clowns are us continued to install all of the cheapest components found at the dollar store?!?

This is the perfect example of using proven electrical designs and principles only to than circumvent the same by using inferior parts?!?

This is a concerted and purposeful decision by the company.

So when the discussion comes up the latest hardware is more reliable than yesteryears the bar was quite low! It’s only the shear fact the wide voltage design allowed the vast majority of Insteon equipment to survive longer. It surely wasn’t because the company made a concerted effort to affirm the same.

As noted if and when this new hardware is readily available I hope to see high quality parts in the Vantaa line - I really do! If Rob truly wants to show the world they have learned from past mistakes all hardware that pertains to Insteon moving forward should see updates to the BOM.

I’ll never ever understand how any company would want their brand and name associated with low quality, unreliable, throw away??!!??

Smartlabs needs to do better in this area because, guess what?!? They ARE charging a premium for the same!

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Well, it really depends. I remember a few years back, all the hype was "integrators" and a whole line just for them. Then, everything became the hub. Then, the App by a genius from xxx. And now the mass market with Nokia. Again, I never question their decisions. What I question is their loyalty to their existing customer base (including integrators).

A simple and transparent messaging would have gone a long way. Even if it said something like: due to xyz, we're shifting our focus to w. And, therefore, these products will be EOL by this date.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

Alot of these companies did/do what it takes to make money. That's all they are loyal to. Its part of why I support and defend UDI/Isy so much. The way you operate is not common in the business world.

15 years ago these products were made for techies and integrators because the avg person didn't want anything to do with a smart home. 

Around 6-7 years ago interest grew in smart homes and the market started to shift. Fast forward to now, it's come into it's own and more people want some type of control (not necessarily automation). Companies do not have to sell 50 switches to 5 people to make money now since they have 50 people buying 5....and then they come back for more. 

Power users are extremely demanding compared to avg users so the cost to support them is much greater post sale than with everyone else. When you look at how easy it is to add devices to the new hub and setup, it's a no brainer for them (and most companies). You may have support calls for initial setup, but after that, people simply use their systems vs constant tinkering the way power users are. This is especially so with how easy the new system is to setup

Its going that route for alot of businesses. More and more companies are installing ring cameras vs hardwired systems for people. Why? It's what people want and they can do 3 installs in the time it takes to do 1 hardwired. Not only that, due to the costs involved, it's easier to expand the system over time than it is with a hardwired system. For a business, its more money for less work, more customers=more referrals, and potentially a repeat customer who wants to add to the system over time

[Teken]

Alot of these companies did/do what it takes to make money. That's all they are loyal to. Its part of why I support and defend UDI/Isy so much. The way you operate is not common in the business world.
15 years ago these products were made for techies and integrators because the avg person didn't want anything to do with a smart home. 
Around 6-7 years ago interest grew in smart homes and the market started to shift. Fast forward to now, it's come into it's own and more people want some type of control (not necessarily automation). Companies do not have to sell 50 switches to 5 people to make money now since they have 50 people buying 5....and then they come back for more. 
Power users are extremely demanding compared to avg users so the cost to support them is much greater post sale than with everyone else. When you look at how easy it is to add devices to the new hub and setup, it's a no brainer for them (and most companies). You may have support calls for initial setup, but after that, people simply use their systems vs constant tinkering the way power users are. This is especially so with how easy the new system is to setup
Its going that route for alot of businesses. More and more companies are installing ring cameras vs hardwired systems for people. Why? It's what people want and they can do 3 installs in the time it takes to do 1 hardwired. Not only that, due to the costs involved, it's easier to expand the system over time than it is with a hardwired system. For a business, its more money for less work, more customers=more referrals, and potentially a repeat customer who wants to add to the system over time

As it pertains to making money this company isn’t serious at all.

Why?!?

Because they haven’t made any forward movement to release more hardware to sell outside of North America. Given almost every piece that was marketed outside of NA has been turfed or simply doesn’t exist for sale!

Again if this was truly about profits any sane and reasonable first year accountant would have called out the losses incurred due to warranty issues. That is directly contributed by what - cheap parts.

Shitty designs that rarely if ever get updated or iterated unless it’s a core product.

I’m going to look into the crystal ball and call out the next five years. That is once the new Vantaa line comes out none of those physical hardware sees a single change! The only possible change will be guess what?!?

Firmware changes to correct bugs, possible features that should have existed anyways like programmable LED etc. Because it’s only taken this company it’s entirety to integrate the same.

As it pertains to Integrators, 3rd parties both Joe & Rob have zero sense in this area. This view and fact is bolstered by the shear fact every other dollar store to name any market leader integrates and encourages adoption of their wares.

Even if it’s the stupid cloud!

Yet Rob will poke UDI in the eye and not even keep them in the loop as to new hardware or API to support the same? Do you know why that really shitty Vera box had so much community support?!?

Because they saw value and the opportunities that working with the public and 3rd parties bring. Nobody does more or better than - EVERYONE. This is why Open Source exists and has literally been the spear that has forced old and greedy companies like Apple, Microsoft, name any hardware / service to do better.

When open source office suites, PDF readers, operating systems, new code for existing hardware came to be. It literally changed the world and the consumers ability to use and participate.

That more often than not did what??

It literally pushed the cheap aszz to purchase the real thing! You don’t see any real company of note using Apple Office Suite, Open Office because guess what Microsoft rules this sector because they’ve been working on it for decades.

The same thing happened to the computer OS. Literally every major enterprise company is using a flavour of Linux?!?

So Smartlabs / Nokia had better turn that page quickly and really make a go at their second life. Otherwise history will surely repeat itself.

[DAlter01]

28 minutes ago, Teken said:

Speaking for myself only Insteon doesn’t need to race to the bottom like everyone else. As the market has proven someone will fill that market need at the price point wanted.

What Smartlabs (Insteon) must do is stop using the cheapest components inside the hardware all the while charging a premium!

There are millions of companies that have proven a good middle ground can be found that balanced value, performance, reliability, and profits! The only reason any company uses cheap components is pure greed nothing else.

What crawls up my aszz when this topic comes up is the fact Smartlabs went out of their way after having an epiphany that dual wide voltage and frequency should be employed in their 3rd generation of hardware. On the surface this was a huge win to all of us as doing so would allow the hardware by default be more resilient from electrical surge / sag events.

Yet clowns are us continued to install all of the cheapest components found at the dollar store?!?

This is the perfect example of using proven electrical designs and principles only to than circumvent the same by using inferior parts?!?

This is a concerted and purposeful decision by the company.

So when the discussion comes up the latest hardware is more reliable than yesteryears the bar was quite low! It’s only the shear fact the wide voltage design allowed the vast majority of Insteon equipment to survive longer. It surely wasn’t because the company made a concerted effort to affirm the same.

As noted if and when this new hardware is readily available I hope to see high quality parts in the Vantaa line - I really do! If Rob truly wants to show the world they have learned from past mistakes all hardware that pertains to Insteon moving forward should see updates to the BOM.

I’ll never ever understand how any company would want their brand and name associated with low quality, unreliable, throw away??!!??

Smartlabs needs to do better in this area because, guess what?!? They ARE charging a premium for the same!

I've had Insteon since early 2014.  Its been about 300 devices between two residences.  In that time I've had one PLM fail early on, one micro-dimmer (I think that was my fault), and I have had no failures of any other devices that I can remember.  Maybe there was one dimmer switch years ago but I can't say for sure.  I've had to factory reset dimmer switches 3-4 times when they stopped working or worked incorrectly.  That is 7 years of what I consider pretty solid performance over what I consider a lot of devices.  I do know others have had a real problem with PLM's, I've been spared that problem except for the one and it was likely a 2013 manufacture date. 

Is it possible that over the last +/- 7 years Smartlabs has improved the reliability of their equipment and a lot of the problems are with older equipment?  Maybe the PLM which everyone seems to have problems with needs some work, though I've not experienced much issue.  To me, getting 7 years, and hopefully more, out of electronics is a pretty good track record.  Maybe my bar for measuring is low, maybe my sample size is small, maybe my incoming power is cleaner that average and I've been blessed with low failure because of it?  

I hear talk on these boards about low quality components inside their devices but I haven't experienced it.  Maybe I should count my blessings and hope I haven't jinked myself for commenting on the topic. 

[DAlter01]

8 minutes ago, Teken said:

Yet Rob will poke UDI in the eye and not even keep them in the loop as to new hardware or API to support the same?

Yeah, that is just plain STUPID.  

[DAlter01]

14 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Yeah, that is just plain STUPID.  

UDI knows the Insteon system, its weaknesses, and areas of opportunity for making the system better more than anyone.  And, they have (or had) a real insterest in the platform's success.  I suspect they would have been generous with their input to Smartlabs on how to implement improvements to the system.  When Smartabs decided to do the grand redesign for their new devices, how do you not make a seat for UDI at the strategy meeting?  Why would you not bring in such an aparently willing expert into the development process?  There is arrogance in that kind of thinking that is a huge loss of opportunity.  Smartlabs/Nokia may be successful with the new platform moving forward but think of the additional refinments that could have been made with input from UDI?  The lost opportunity could mean the difference between havng moderate success because the system works OK, and 10X success because the system works great.  

I don't get it.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by DAlter01

[Teken]

I've had Insteon since early 2014.  Its been about 300 devices between two residences.  In that time I've had one PLM fail early on, one micro-dimmer (I think that was my fault), and I have had no failures of any other devices that I can remember.  Maybe there was one dimmer switch years ago but I can't say for sure.  I've had to factory reset dimmer switches 3-4 times when they stopped working or worked incorrectly.  That is 7 years of what I consider pretty solid performance over what I consider a lot of devices.  I do know others have had a real problem with PLM's, I've been spared that problem except for the one and it was likely a 2013 manufacture date. 
Is it possible that over the last +/- 7 years Smartlabs has improved the reliability of their equipment and a lot of the problems are with older equipment?  Maybe the PLM which everyone seems to have problems with needs some work, though I've not experienced much issue.  To me, getting 7 years, and hopefully more, out of electronics is a pretty good track record.  Maybe my bar for measuring is low, maybe my sample size is small, maybe my incoming power is cleaner that average and I've been blessed with low failure because of it?  
I hear talk on these boards about low quality components inside their devices but I haven't experienced it.  Maybe I should count my blessings and hope I haven't jinked myself for commenting on the topic. 

My experience does mirror yours as clean power is has a tremendous impact as to seen / not seen failures. Over the years the company has updated many components and it’s either been due to availability or to increase reliability by simply increasing voltage.

You can buy any capacitor with a voltage rating. This literally spans the dollar store to the top military spec components. Again this is just a very small area of importance because operating range is extremely important if said device will see the expected life cycle!

The 2413S PLM literally had a capacitor updated that span no less than 10 revisions. Guess what these incompetent fools simply did?!?

Just increased the value, voltage, yet never using temp rated parts never mind a known name brand part?!? I mean if that is the litmus test of progress I suppose that’s factual. But no where does it offer real long term reliability and longevity.

A basic switch should work forever. I am surrounded by homes all over the country that have simple none smart switches in use for 50 years. There are tens of millions of old school dimmers still in use today that easily break 30-40 years of service.

Fast forward to any Arrow, Leviton, Eaton, Hubble, P&S smart switch. Billions of these devices that span simple bathroom timers to more complex.

Guess what??

Ten years is just starting for them and they are in every hospital, restaurant, hotel, business in the world. All in production since 2000. So no, I’m not moved by 7 years or 10. It’s expected industry norms that is rooted in facts.

The company doesn’t get a pass by the community because they meet what the world has in place and didn’t need to beg anyone to do the same.

None of the companies I listed up above are smarter than Smartlabs. They simply have more common sense to use and follow established industry best practices, QA, and component selection!

[DAlter01]

3 minutes ago, Teken said:

The 2413S PLM literally had a capacitor updated that span no less than 10 revisions. Guess what these incompetent fools simply did?!?

One would think that after lots of failures through multiple revisions, someone up the foodchain at Smartlabs would realize it is a design/use that requires higher quality capacitors than their typical device and they should spend an extra $2 in parts per unit and charge $10 more.  Lacking that decision, one could make the leap that it is designed as a short lifespan product for repeat sales.  I doubt that is the case but some manufactures have that type of thinking.   Again, i don't think that is their intention but it might have crept into the discussion  ( Imagine a C-suite disccusion along the lines of:  "We don't need to put expensive capacitors in all the units if only 10% of them will fail within 5 years.  That 10% that fail, well, those customers will just need to purchase replacement units."  That kind of thinking can easily occur and is just one step short of planned short lifespan).

 

[lilyoyo1]

55 minutes ago, Teken said:

As it pertains to making money this company isn’t serious at all.

Why?!?

Because they haven’t made any forward movement to release more hardware to sell outside of North America. Given almost every piece that was marketed outside of NA has been turfed or simply doesn’t exist for sale!

Again if this was truly about profits any sane and reasonable first year accountant would have called out the losses incurred due to warranty issues. That is directly contributed by what - cheap parts.

Shitty designs that rarely if ever get updated or iterated unless it’s a core product.

I’m going to look into the crystal ball and call out the next five years. That is once the new Vantaa line comes out none of those physical hardware sees a single change! The only possible change will be guess what?!?

Firmware changes to correct bugs, possible features that should have existed anyways like programmable LED etc. Because it’s only taken this company it’s entirety to integrate the same.

As it pertains to Integrators, 3rd parties both Joe & Rob have zero sense in this area. This view and fact is bolstered by the shear fact every other dollar store to name any market leader integrates and encourages adoption of their wares.

Even if it’s the stupid cloud!

Yet Rob will poke UDI in the eye and not even keep them in the loop as to new hardware or API to support the same? Do you know why that really shitty Vera box had so much community support?!?

Because they saw value and the opportunities that working with the public and 3rd parties bring. Nobody does more or better than - EVERYONE. This is why Open Source exists and has literally been the spear that has forced old and greedy companies like Apple, Microsoft, name any hardware / service to do better.

When open source office suites, PDF readers, operating systems, new code for existing hardware came to be. It literally changed the world and the consumers ability to use and participate.

That more often than not did what??

It literally pushed the cheap aszz to purchase the real thing! You don’t see any real company of note using Apple Office Suite, Open Office because guess what Microsoft rules this sector because they’ve been working on it for decades.

The same thing happened to the computer OS. Literally every major enterprise company is using a flavour of Linux?!?

So Smartlabs / Nokia had better turn that page quickly and really make a go at their second life. Otherwise history will surely repeat itself.

I'm not going to go back into the past with what old ownership did or didn't do. They did something right since they are still in business despite all the naysayers and ranting on here about how much they suck for the past 10 years. Regardless of how terrible people say it is, was still able to sell it for more than any of us will probably make in our lifetime. 

Since you're talking about open source, that's all hobbyists and tinkerer's. Most professionals wouldn't use it and the avg person doesn't have the desire to take the time and effort to set a system up from scratch. Not only that it's free. Businesses are in the business to make money not code for free software. 

In regards to Vera- what type of people are using it? Once again, hobbyists and tinkerers. 

Let's be real, no one cares about the underlying code for something they buy. They buy an Android phone because they like the design, price point, mfg. How many have you talked to that say they wanted one because its Linux based? Those who do get it for that reason are generally techies, hobbyists, coders, etc. Not the general public. 

Just looking at the Google play store downloads, when you look at the download count for Samsung smart things, Philips hue, and magic home, all have 1 million+ downloads. More than openhab, home assistant, mqtt, and vera combined. 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

 

 

55 minutes ago, Teken said:

My experience does mirror yours as clean power is has a tremendous impact as to seen / not seen failures. Over the years the company has updated many components and it’s either been due to availability or to increase reliability by simply increasing voltage.

You can buy any capacitor with a voltage rating. This literally spans the dollar store to the top military spec components. Again this is just a very small area of importance because operating range is extremely important if said device will see the expected life cycle!

The 2413S PLM literally had a capacitor updated that span no less than 10 revisions. Guess what these incompetent fools simply did?!?

Just increased the value, voltage, yet never using temp rated parts never mind a known name brand part?!? I mean if that is the litmus test of progress I suppose that’s factual. But no where does it offer real long term reliability and longevity.

A basic switch should work forever. I am surrounded by homes all over the country that have simple none smart switches in use for 50 years. There are tens of millions of old school dimmers still in use today that easily break 30-40 years of service.

Fast forward to any Arrow, Leviton, Eaton, Hubble, P&S smart switch. Billions of these devices that span simple bathroom timers to more complex.

Guess what??

Ten years is just starting for them and they are in every hospital, restaurant, hotel, business in the world. All in production since 2000. So no, I’m not moved by 7 years or 10. It’s expected industry norms that is rooted in facts.

The company doesn’t get a pass by the community because they meet what the world has in place and didn’t need to beg anyone to do the same.

None of the companies I listed up above are smarter than Smartlabs. They simply have more common sense to use and follow established industry best practices, QA, and component selection!

Actually your comparison is dead wrong and completely misleading.

For the most part, you won't find zwave, wifi switches, or any other consumer diy products, in any of the environments that you mentioned. You'll find true professional level devices in 99% of the environments that you mentioned. For starters, what it takes for something to make it in a hospital is much greater than what it takes for a person's home. For a technology to work properly in a hotel, the requirements differ as well. That's why you'll see Control4 in the Aria and Crestron in other high end hotels. Go to the avg business conference room. Its not RTI- it's Crestron. Small businesses, may have a diy system installed but not full sized companies. 

Last I checked, insteon, zwave, nor any other smart switch maker has simple bathroom timers. Completely different worlds. If you're going to argue something, at least argue with full facts vs comparing apples to steak. Those companies are in completely different worlds than insteon and other diy systems

Edited July 28, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[asbril]

This conversation went from interesting to amusing, then to slightly annoying and now to apples & steak........ Definitely more appetizing    

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, asbril said:

This conversation went from interesting to amusing, then to slightly annoying and now to apples & steak........ Definitely more appetizing    

Especially with fried apples

[Teken]

I'm not going to go back into the past with what old ownership did or didn't do. They did something right since they are still in business despite all the naysayers and ranting on here about how much they suck for the past 10 years. Regardless of how terrible people say it is, was still able to sell it for more than any of us will probably make in our lifetime. 
Since you're talking about open source, that's all hobbyists and tinkerer's. Most professionals wouldn't use it and the avg person doesn't have the desire to take the time and effort to set a system up from scratch. Not only that it's free. Businesses are in the business to make money not code for free software. 
In regards to Vera- what type of people are using it? Once again, hobbyists and tinkerers. 
Let's be real, no one cares about the underlying code for something they buy. They buy an Android phone because they like the design, price point, mfg. How many have you talked to that say they wanted one because its Linux based? Those who do get it for that reason are generally techies, hobbyists, coders, etc. Not the general public. 
Just looking at the Google play store downloads, when you look at the download count for Samsung smart things, Philips hue, and magic home, all have 1 million+ downloads. More than openhab, home assistant, mqtt, and vera combined. 
 
 

To be clear I’m not simply hashing out the past. This very seconds after I post these thoughts will literally be the PAST! Regardless my point is current selling hardware does not use name brand high temperature components.

This continues under who?

Rob . . .

Will the latest generation of Vantaa incorporate the same? I’ll give them the benefit of doubt but have strong belief the BOM will not use anything much different than what is inside the current selling Insteon products.

I’d love to be proven wrong and mean that sincerely.

As it pertains Open Source you missed my point which is every major enterprise network incorporates a Linux server. Guess what that’s literally freeware. The only distinction are companies using paid support to receive break fix, bug fix, security patching, and maintenance.

Which leads to my other point as it pertains to Vera. It was just an example of a half aszz product that captured millions of customers.

Why?!?

The company from the onset decided it’s core operating system could be integrated with via open API. This is exactly why the same was not seen for the ISY Series Controller in large part due to lack of marketing, and the complexity to do so. All of us can see the steady growth in adoption with respect to Polyglot and Node Servers.

Is it anywhere to the likes of Apple / Google - No. But a strong foundation of topology and documentation is available for anyone to use and follow. Years past UDI was not taking the same path as others and there was very little adoption or continued growth.

Think Z-Wave, Amazon Echo, Google Home, IFTTT, Energy Monitoring & Control. The Network Module was the first iteration of integration to other things. This was later expanded to incorporate cloud integration with many NAME brand companies.

All of this was finally bolstered by the PolyCloud and Node Servers that span weather to Tesla.

If UDI continued to resist adding Z-Wave as they did years ago. They would not have seen more adoption or increased sales of their controller. The same could be said about the so called Energy portion not being a money maker?!?

UDI didn’t win a multimillion dollar bid from who ever if the company didn’t invest the resources in Energy Management for how many POCO’s?

This directly translates to all the people rocking any Z-Wave device capable of offering energy data! That’s right up there with the Weather Module if this feature didn’t exist what portions of sales would have been missed?

Lucky for us the Polyglot frame work which underpins the Node Server environment has no less than five weather related modules / plugins!

Which span what??

Local First & Cloud First . . .

The main difference is UDI has never lost the objective of Local First. What they have wisely done even if dragged slowly to integrate is adding the ability to link to Cloud Only services.

All of the above Michel and team had to weigh out the profit vs reward. Because it’s not like they can risk everything on a failed concept or turd!

Every single year it’s not perfection - it’s progress! This is something that Smartlabs has yet to prove to me or the masses. As noted so many times here and around the net the journey continues and only they are the masters of the ending and how it will be remembered in history.

[Teken]

Especially with fried apples

Don’t forget the chocolate ice cream with that drizzle that turns hard!

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, Teken said:

To be clear I’m not simply hashing out the past. This very seconds after I post these thoughts will literally be the PAST! Regardless my point is current selling hardware does not use name brand high temperature components.

This continues under who?

Rob . . .

Will the latest generation of Vantaa incorporate the same? I’ll give them the benefit of doubt but have strong belief the BOM will not use anything much different than what is inside the current selling Insteon products.

I’d love to be proven wrong and mean that sincerely.

As it pertains Open Source you missed my point which is every major enterprise network incorporates a Linux server. Guess what that’s literally freeware. The only distinction are companies using paid support to receive break fix, bug fix, security patching, and maintenance.

Which leads to my other point as it pertains to Vera. It was just an example of a half aszz product that captured millions of customers.

Why?!?

The company from the onset decided it’s core operating system could be integrated with via open API. This is exactly why the same was not seen for the ISY Series Controller in large part due to lack of marketing, and the complexity to do so. All of us can see the steady growth in adoption with respect to Polyglot and Node Servers.

Is it anywhere to the likes of Apple / Google - No. But a strong foundation of topology and documentation is available for anyone to use and follow. Years past UDI was not taking the same path as others and there was very little adoption or continued growth.

Think Z-Wave, Amazon Echo, Google Home, IFTTT, Energy Monitoring & Control. The Network Module was the first iteration of integration to other things. This was later expanded to incorporate cloud integration with many NAME brand companies.

All of this was finally bolstered by the PolyCloud and Node Servers that span weather to Tesla.

If UDI continued to resist adding Z-Wave as they did years ago. They would not have seen more adoption or increased sales of their controller. The same could be said about the so called Energy portion not being a money maker?!?

UDI didn’t win a multimillion dollar bid from who ever if the company didn’t invest the resources in Energy Management for how many POCO’s?

This directly translates to all the people rocking any Z-Wave device capable of offering energy data! That’s right up there with the Weather Module if this feature didn’t exist what portions of sales would have been missed?

Lucky for us the Polyglot frame work which underpins the Node Server environment has no less than five weather related modules / plugins!

Which span what??

Local First & Cloud First . . .

The main difference is UDI has never lost the objective of Local First. What they have wisely done even if dragged slowly to integrate is adding the ability to link to Cloud Only services.

All of the above Michel and team had to weigh out the profit vs reward. Because it’s not like they can risk everything on a failed concept or turd!

Every single year it’s not perfection - it’s progress! This is something that Smartlabs has yet to prove to me or the masses. As noted so many times here and around the net the journey continues and only they are the masters of the ending and how it will be remembered in history.

You're rehashing since it's the same statements every time you post. Even seconds later. You're calling us the  masses when it's about this forum. The masses are general consumers. We are not the masses for them. Back when insteon had people pushing the Isy, the hub still outsold it 5 to 1. The number has only increased since then simply going off the amount of plms being sold vs hubs. 

UDI has done nothing different than what insteon is now doing. They were a software company creating an automation controller. They saw insteon didn't have strong software so they worked with them for their and expanded to other offerings.

They are now in a place where they don't need them. Insteon being a hardware company needed power users in the beginning. They needed the techies to get them started. Now that the masses are interested in smart homes, they are moving towards that and away from the techies and power users. They aren't the first ones and you'll see in time, more will do the same

Edited July 28, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Teken]

Actually your comparison is dead wrong and completely misleading.
For the most part, you won't find zwave, wifi switches, or any other consumer diy products, in any of the environments that you mentioned. You'll find true professional level devices in 99% of the environments that you mentioned. For starters, what it takes for something to make it in a hospital is much greater than what it takes for a person's home. For a technology to work properly in a hotel, the requirements differ as well. That's why you'll see Control4 in the Aria and Crestron in other high end hotels. Go to the avg business conference room. Its not RTI- it's Crestron. Small businesses, may have a diy system installed but not full sized companies. 
Last I checked, insteon, zwave, nor any other smart switch maker has simple bathroom timers. Completely different worlds. If you're going to argue something, at least argue with full facts vs comparing apples to steak. Those companies are in completely different worlds than insteon and other diy systems

Come on now if we are being factual name a single Holiday Inn, Best Western, who ever that has any of the brands you noted in a hotel room?!?

Just because it’s in use for a main hall, special event room doesn’t mean it’s in a rented room. Now if you’re talking about the 1% high roller presidential rooms etc that isn’t something I’d call mass adoption or deployment.

As it pertains to a hospital the hardware depending the area is 90% of the time hospital grade and then commercial grade in clerical zones.

Not once did I mention any sort of Z-Wave, ZigBee, Insteon etc. As it pertains to those sectors because that’s patiently false. Are there examples of a few sure because someone was just too stupid and road the short bus of a trend.

Every so called large HA deployment I’ve ever read or seen has been a literal one off. It’s rarely if ever replicated to something sustaining in use - ever.

Anyone less than bright who has used any of these toy like protocols quickly regretted the same and lived with it. Pulled it out or stopped any future expansion of the same. The vast majority were fired because these incompetent fools just didn’t know when to stop.

Anyone who is dead serious about load management goes the route I’m on now and that is at the service panel. This has been in use for decades and only now has been marketed to the public as a new shiny toy in the guise of some lame hipster fad of what??

Home Automation . . .

The people who are in this industry and read my replies are laughing because it’s true! Load management hasn’t taken off in the consumer realm because it’s not something anyone can just walk into HD and say that I’ll take 4.

It’s expensive, requires planning, is totally not advertised to the masses like Echo / Home everywhere you look.

[Teken]

You're rehashing since it's the same statements every time you post. Even seconds later. You're calling us the  masses when it's about this forum. The masses are general consumers. We are not the masses for them. Back when insteon had people pushing the Isy, the hub still outsold it 5 to 1. The number has only increased since then simply going off the amount of plms being sold vs hubs. 
UDI has done nothing different than what insteon is now doing. They were a software company creating an automation controller. They saw insteon didn't have strong software so they worked with them for their and expanded to other offerings.
They are now in a place where they don't need them. Insteon being a hardware company needed power users in the beginning. They needed the techies to get them started. Now that the masses are interested in smart homes, they are moving towards that and away from the techies and power users. They aren't the first ones and you'll see in time, more will do the same

Come on that statement is less than accurate as it pertains to sales. I’ve explained and noted why that is and affirm the numbers you’ve called out. The first reason is price because the average user is price conscious!

Nobody can say with a straight face a Hub that’s selling from $39 - 129.00 won’t sell more vs one that by default cost more? The fact like any major retailers place the wares they are pushing to increase awareness, adoption, and sales??

Like the Hub name any flavour wasn’t splattered all over the first page in Smarthomes web site when a controller was searched?!?

Come on . . .

Again, as stated some kept the Insteon Hub. Many having experienced HA grew up such a life and did what?? They literally moved to the ISY Series Controller - naturally.

The Hub was a simple gateway to let anyone dip their toes into something without too much investment or loss. Those who enjoyed the power of the Insteon hardware learned quickly there were other platforms that offered more features and conditional logic!

So when you say the ISY sold less when compared to the Insteon Hub. You’re literally making fried apple pie.

By the time this is all over you’ll owe me ten rounds of my favourite drink!

[LFMc]

Circling back to the original intent of this topic, Intel chief says get ready, 1-2 more years of chip shortages and the worst is yet to come. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57996908  

 

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, Teken said:

Come on now if we are being factual name a single Holiday Inn, Best Western, who ever that has any of the brands you noted in a hotel room?!?

Just because it’s in use for a main hall, special event room doesn’t mean it’s in a rented room. Now if you’re talking about the 1% high roller presidential rooms etc that isn’t something I’d call mass adoption or deployment.

As it pertains to a hospital the hardware depending the area is 90% of the time hospital grade and then commercial grade in clerical zones.

Not once did I mention any sort of Z-Wave, ZigBee, Insteon etc. As it pertains to those sectors because that’s patiently false. Are there examples of a few sure because someone was just too stupid and road the short bus of a trend.

Every so called large HA deployment I’ve ever read or seen has been a literal one off. It’s rarely if ever replicated to something sustaining in use - ever.

Anyone less than bright who has used any of these toy like protocols quickly regretted the same and lived with it. Pulled it out or stopped any future expansion of the same. The vast majority were fired because these incompetent fools just didn’t know when to stop.

Anyone who is dead serious about load management goes the route I’m on now and that is at the service panel. This has been in use for decades and only now has been marketed to the public as a new shiny toy in the guise of some lame hipster fad of what??

Home Automation . . .

The people who are in this industry and read my replies are laughing because it’s true! Load management hasn’t taken off in the consumer realm because it’s not something anyone can just walk into HD and say that I’ll take 4.

It’s expensive, requires planning, is totally not advertised to the masses like Echo / Home everywhere you look.

You're the one talking about insteon not being found in hospitals, hotels, restaurants, and other businesses. I was pointing out that those are not places you would find any diy system at all. Not about who can necessarily afford them.

While you may not have mentioned all the other protocols, you did bring up those scenarios in regards to insteon not being able to do the same so yes, it was implied. 

You yourself have called out other people for comparing an electronic device to a mechanical one. Your thought process was the same as mine in that mechanical would last 10x longer than an electronic switch. That's like saying a cordless phone (or cellphone) should last as long as an old rotary phone. 

Most don't get into automation for load management. They get into it for convenience. Your last argument goes with what I've been saying this whole time. Its about the masses, not necessarily power users and the like

 

[Michel Kohanim]

28 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

UDI has done nothing different than what insteon is now doing. They were a software company creating an automation controller. They saw insteon didn't have strong software so they worked with them for their and expanded to other offerings.

O boy. If this is indeed what you believe, then UD, as a company, has failed.

With kind regards,

Michel