Insteon being discontinued?

[MrBill]

24 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

So much love for Nokia here.  Astounding.  Lets see someone put their money where their mouth is.  I dare you, go buy some stock right now.

I own stock in both Nokia and Richmond Capital Partners... oh yea and Google, Apple and Microsoft too.... and many more tech companies. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

You didn't read anything I wrote.  First off, implying I am a failure for not building a billion dollar company is unwarranted.  I have done just fine thank you.

As I said, stock prices over the long term always reflect actual company success.  Take a 1 or 2 year running average and you will find that this closely track what the company is actually worth. 

 

So much love for Nokia here.  Astounding.  Lets see someone put their money where their mouth is.  I dare you, go buy some stock right now.

And you're missing the point I'm making. To say a fortune 500 company with 100k+ employees is a failure makes no sense. 

Every successful company is laced with failures. Some survive and some don't. 

Take Space X for example, they were on the verge of bankruptcy until NASA bailed them out. People were getting on Elon Musk back then about it being a bad decision. Now they're valued at over 35 billion dollars. 

Or how about Microsoft. Look at how many failures they had over the decades. Whether it was windows phone, Aljoyn, Zune media player, windows mobile, etc. 

Stock price, profit, market, etc. all play a part in what a company earns. This happens for multiple reasons. Failure to see the market, trying to reinvent the market, being too late, too soon, marketing, govt. regulations, etc.

If i opened the first Automation company in California and was the only game in town, my revenues will eventually decline as others do the same. If i start from the bottom and grow, my revenues will increase regardless of how good or bad i am. Long term, my ability to stay in business and compete is what matters. GE may make less than they did 20 years ago but that's for a variety of reasons. They've done alot to stay relevant and expand into other fields. That speaks volumes in itself. The same with Nokia. Regardless of it's smartphone business failing, they've managed to bring themselves back by investing in different ventures such as telecommunications and other stuff. While they may have failed on 1 end, they managed to stay relevant on another. The good thing for them is the retail box doesn't say their name on it so if the device fails they aren't bought down by it. While the app might have their name in it, most of it is back ground stuff. In the end limited exposure should it fail and great publicity should it succeed. 

[lilyoyo1]

34 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I think it is a wait and see thing either way. Companies do not display their corporate business moves before they do them to "tip their hand".  I have seen companies put out public  broadcasts how well they are doing the day before closing their doors. In one, 800 employees of a many decade aerospace business, were told over the P.A. system, they had two hours to get out. Large companies have no morals or obligations to inform their employees or customers.

The friction is created by posters attempting to guess what Smarthome / Insteon is doing without disclosing sources, if there actually were any (guessing). The only real information we have is, what we have seen, logic from that and other companies history, and what users report from the SH support people contacts.

 

I'm not sure if the friction comes from posters not disclosing sources or posters sitting around trying to come up with the most outrageous stuff they can think of.

I know for myself, I don't reveal sources because it's told to me in private and I share what I'm given permission to share. I have shared some stuff in private with some members (including yourself). Even with this Nokia stuff, I opened up about things once it hit the FCC (including with you). There are enough people on here I've talked to offline including Michel that can say my stuff is not conjecture or some wild crazy idea. When it is, i normally state so vs trying to come across with it as fact. Can you say that for yourself?

In regards to smarthome support, I've seen people with contradicting information from them. A person can believe what they want but which is more likely, a person who's spoken about stuff that has come to fruition or a person 7k miles away in a foreign country with zero ties to the company at all. Let's be real, what's the likelihood of Insteon or any company telling their outsourced support staff anything 

 

[larryllix]

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm not sure if the friction comes from posters not disclosing sources or posters sitting around trying to come up with the most outrageous stuff they can think of.

I know for myself, I don't reveal sources because it's told to me in private and I share what I'm given permission to share. I have shared some stuff in private with some members (including yourself). Even with this Nokia stuff, I opened up about things once it hit the FCC (including with you). There are enough people on here I've talked to offline including Michel that can say my stuff is not conjecture or some wild crazy idea. When it is, i normally state so vs trying to come across with it as fact. Can you say that for yourself?

In regards to smarthome support, I've seen people with contradicting information from them. A person can believe what they want but which is more likely, a person who's spoken about stuff that has come to fruition or a person 7k miles away in a foreign country with zero ties to the company at all. Let's be real, what's the likelihood of Insteon or any company telling their outsourced support staff anything 

 

If the shoe fits, wear it.

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, larryllix said:

If the shoe fits, wear it.

I wear it. I don't have to reveal sources. My stuff just has to be real. Answer this- what have I spoken to you about on here or in private have I been wrong about or given improper information?

[apostolakisl]

59 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I own stock in both Nokia and Richmond Capital Partners... oh yea and Google, Apple and Microsoft too.... and many more tech companies. 

I'm sure you're pretty happy about some of those.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

It's not a valid graph because the Nokia handset line was sold in 2014 to Microsoft.It didn't even belong to Nokia for the last 3rd of that graph.  At the time of the sale, it was a good deal for both companies... but Microsoft was never able to reverse the trend started by the popularity of Android and iOS.

There is the graph of gross revenue which is across everything Nokia itself sells, not the stuff sold under its name plate.  Nokia gross revenue is half of what it was a decade ago.  The stock is flat, so inflation adjusted it is down about 20%.  Against the s&p500 it is down about 75%.  The stuck has very little fluctuation in years which tells you the stock is likely priced accurately.  

But the handset sales tell you the public perception of the Nokia name, regardless of who makes them.  After all, that is what Smartlabs is buying, public perception, advertising basically.  And the public doesn't seem to think much of the name.  When you go to the phone store and pass by the Nokia brand, why do you think it will be any different when you go to the HA store?

The deal with Insteon through a number of owners over the years is that they are company with just enough to get by.  I don't see slapping a different hood ornament on it changing that.  And even if Nokia were to start running Smartlabs, there is nothing about Nokia to suggest anyone working there in the past 20 years knows anything about growth either.

[larryllix]

34 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I wear it. I don't have to reveal sources. My stuff just has to be real. Answer this- what have I spoken to you about on here or in private have I been wrong about or given improper information?

Without any sources, information is less valid  than people reporting actual information direct from SH sources. Time will tell.

Try to keep the personal, ad hominem attacks, under control and confine your comments to topics and other comments.  Thanks.

You used the "I'll stop when you do". Apparently that didn't work at the your end. Blab on.

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

There is the graph of gross revenue which is across everything Nokia itself sells, not the stuff sold under its name plate.  Nokia gross revenue is half of what it was a decade ago.  The stock is flat, so inflation adjusted it is down about 20%.  Against the s&p500 it is down about 75%.  The stuck has very little fluctuation in years which tells you the stock is likely priced accurately.  

But the handset sales tell you the public perception of the Nokia name, regardless of who makes them.  After all, that is what Smartlabs is buying, public perception, advertising basically.  And the public doesn't seem to think much of the name.  When you go to the phone store and pass by the Nokia brand, why do you think it will be any different when you go to the HA store?

The deal with Insteon through a number of owners over the years is that they are company with just enough to get by.  I don't see slapping a different hood ornament on it changing that.  And even if Nokia were to start running Smartlabs, there is nothing about Nokia to suggest anyone working there in the past 20 years knows anything about growth either.

Insteon has had 2 owners. Joe D and Rob. That's it. 

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

And you're missing the point I'm making. To say a fortune 500 company with 100k+ employees is a failure makes no sense. 

Every successful company is laced with failures. Some survive and some don't. 

Take Space X for example, they were on the verge of bankruptcy until NASA bailed them out. People were getting on Elon Musk back then about it being a bad decision. Now they're valued at over 35 billion dollars. 

Or how about Microsoft. Look at how many failures they had over the decades. Whether it was windows phone, Aljoyn, Zune media player, windows mobile, etc. 

Stock price, profit, market, etc. all play a part in what a company earns. This happens for multiple reasons. Failure to see the market, trying to reinvent the market, being too late, too soon, marketing, govt. regulations, etc.

If i opened the first Automation company in California and was the only game in town, my revenues will eventually decline as others do the same. If i start from the bottom and grow, my revenues will increase regardless of how good or bad i am. Long term, my ability to stay in business and compete is what matters. GE may make less than they did 20 years ago but that's for a variety of reasons. They've done alot to stay relevant and expand into other fields. That speaks volumes in itself. The same with Nokia. Regardless of it's smartphone business failing, they've managed to bring themselves back by investing in different ventures such as telecommunications and other stuff. While they may have failed on 1 end, they managed to stay relevant on another. The good thing for them is the retail box doesn't say their name on it so if the device fails they aren't bought down by it. While the app might have their name in it, most of it is back ground stuff. In the end limited exposure should it fail and great publicity should it succeed. 

There are different types of investments.  Growth vs value.  One is in a mature business, turns a profit and pays dividends.  The stock doesn't tend to move a lot.  The other may or may not make a profit, but keeps adding to gross sales and sees stock prices rise.  Nokia doesn't pay a dividend and doesn't grow (it shrinks), and that is over most any time frame you look at in the past 20 years.  That is not good.  Nokia is also shedding employees (as it must with fewer sales).  It is a company that is trending down, not up.

I am surprised to hear you say that "Nokia" is not to be found on the product or its box.  So now, what the heck?  What is this?  Aside from the website, what is Nokia about these devices?

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Without any sources, information is less valid  than people reporting actual information direct from SH sources. Time will tell.

Try to keep the personal, ad hominem attacks, under control and confine your comments to topics and other comments.  Thanks.

I haven't personally attacked anyone. I simply asked a question which you still haven't been able to answer. There are members here that can vouch for stuff that I've shared without having to reveal sources. I've revealed stuff to you as well information not found in public which you seen to have forgotten. Unless you've deleted your emails they are there. 

I'll ask again, what have I shared on here or in private that has been proven incorrect?

[apostolakisl]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Insteon has had 2 owners. Joe D and Rob. That's it. 

OK, how does saying 3 owners vs a number of owners change anything?

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

And the public doesn't seem to think much of the name.

Your basing this on handset sales in an extremely competitive market...LOL, Nokia is so much more than handset sales.  Overall if you had a market research firm stand in a public space asking average consumers for their reaction to the name Nokia, many would above average positive.  Doesn't matter than iOS and Android are more popular.... note it doesn't have as much to do with the phone hardware as it does the phone OS... WindowPhones just never made it.

I'm dropping out of this thread... It matters not what anyone else thinks....You're negative on the Nokia, Period. The. End. 

[apostolakisl]

Come to think of it, Smartlabs and Nokia are a match made in heaven.  Two companies that kind of just go sideways.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

Your basing this on handset sales in an extremely competitive market...LOL, Nokia is so much more than handset sales.  Overall if you had a market research firm stand in a public space asking average consumers for their reaction to the name Nokia, many would above average positive.  Doesn't matter than iOS and Android are more popular.... note it doesn't have as much to do with the phone hardware as it does the phone OS... WindowPhones just never made it.

I'm dropping out of this thread... It matters not what anyone else thinks....You're negative on the Nokia, Period. The. End. 

An argument can be made that in N. America, there's only Apple and Samsung not realizing that if we looked past the trees into the forest, Apple is number 3

[apostolakisl]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

Your basing this on handset sales in an extremely competitive market...LOL, Nokia is so much more than handset sales.  Overall if you had a market research firm stand in a public space asking average consumers for their reaction to the name Nokia, many would above average positive.  Doesn't matter than iOS and Android are more popular.... note it doesn't have as much to do with the phone hardware as it does the phone OS... WindowPhones just never made it.

I'm dropping out of this thread... It matters not what anyone else thinks....You're negative on the Nokia, Period. The. End. 

But the whole point is Nokia name recognition promoting the HA products for Smartlabs.  Publicly, Nokia is only two things, 1) I don't know what they do, or 2) cell phones.  They don't have their name on any other publicly known thing.  Perhaps in Europe, but based on shrinking gross, no one thinks a lot of whatever the other stuff is either.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

And you're missing the point I'm making. To say a fortune 500 company with 100k+ employees is a failure makes no sense. 

Take Space X for example, they were on the verge of bankruptcy until NASA bailed them out. People were getting on Elon Musk back then about it being a bad decision. Now they're valued at over 35 billion dollars. 

 

There are lots and lots of f500 companies that are failures.  If you look at the list from 20 years ago, a good number of those will no longer exist.  There are lots of current f500 companies that are failing and will not be there in the no so distant future.  Nokia is shrinking, pretty much always that means failing.  Rarely shrinking is a good thing, but not in the tech industry.  

I would not say that NASA bailed out SpaceX.  In fact, it has proven to be the opposite.  Where would NASA be without SpaceX crew and cargo dragon?  In a heap of a Boeing mess (another failing company).  It would be more accurate to say the NASA contract saved SpaceX.  Bailed out implies that there was some charity.  There was no charity, SpaceX was worth every penny they paid and then some.

 

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

There are lots and lots of f500 companies that are failures.  If you look at the list from 20 years ago, a good number of those will no longer exist.  There are lots of current f500 companies that are failing and will not be there in the no so distant future.  Nokia is shrinking, pretty much always that means failing.  Rarely shrinking is a good thing, but not in the tech industry.  

I would not say that NASA bailed out SpaceX.  In fact, it has proven to be the opposite.  Where would NASA be without SpaceX crew and cargo dragon?  In a heap of a Boeing mess (another failing company).  It would be more accurate to say the NASA contract saved SpaceX.  Bailed out implies that there was some charity.  There was no charity, SpaceX was worth every penny they paid and then some.

 

This is my last reply. Elon Musk's own words were to that effect. Had NASA not given them a contract in 2008, they would not be here today. Same thing with Tesla. Had Daimler not given him a 50 million lifeline Tesla wouldn't be here either. So yes while you can call it a contract, had it not come along, they would not be here

[lilyoyo1]

29 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

But the whole point is Nokia name recognition promoting the HA products for Smartlabs.  Publicly, Nokia is only two things, 1) I don't know what they do, or 2) cell phones.  They don't have their name on any other publicly known thing.  Perhaps in Europe, but based on shrinking gross, no one thinks a lot of whatever the other stuff is either.

It funny you talk about name recognition. When the line was first announce, people here we're happy as they felt it was a new direction etc. Why? Because despite it's history, not a signal person can say anything negative about their products. 

Once it came out about insteon and smartlabs, that excitement turned sour which is funny since not a single person here has seen, touched, or used the product to really know how it stacks up.

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Once it came out about insteon and smartlabs, that excitement turned sour which is funny since not a single person here has seen, touched, or used the product to really know how it stacks up.

Except you.

[lilyoyo1]

16 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Except you.

True. 

[Teken]

And people think I'm the only one to stir the virtual pot! ? Some quick information for those interested in the same. Nokia is and has a large presence in networking hardware industry. Like other companies some of their revenue comes via IP patents  which we'll just call passive income.

As it relates to Smartlabs using the Nokia brand if it helps drive sales to sustain the Insteon technology I'm fine by that. The proof in the pudding is seeing how the hardware is made and the components used within. As I've stated more than 999999999999999999 times here and in past threads if we see the exact same junk parts. Sh^tty soldering and more failures in their latest Hub it just affirms the whole lipstick on the pig analogy.

Any person who is serious about building a new brand would learn not to repeat the same failures as was seen in the past. I'll give the new hardware a chance to prove themselves but once I get one of these things in my hands and take one apart.

If everything I see is exactly the same I'll spend the rest of my life relaying the same!

If people are honest they can affirm the exact same behavior continues to exist.

- No public communication what so ever on anything

- No third party support whether it be API, Documentation, Partnership

- No global release on anything much less expanding product options

As it relates to lilyoyo I can affirm he speaks and shares the facts when and where he can. He and I don't always agree on things as it pertains to Smartlabs but can agree to disagree. He is also right Rob has a vision and path he intends to follow and its not anyone's position to tell him otherwise. Having said this, anyone serious about success would take a few moments to really accept and understand the past failures and do better moving forward.

This was shared with us as it pertains to multi colored LEDS, Upgradable firmware, and four button KPL. All of these features and enhancements were long time in coming but they are here. What I am interested to see is (IF) they iterate anything instead of throwing things out into the wild to see if it sticks.

That has literally been the hall mark of Insteon . . .

Nothing ever gets iterated and fixed even its a simple firmware update?!?!?    

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is my last reply. Elon Musk's own words were to that effect. Had NASA not given them a contract in 2008, they would not be here today. Same thing with Tesla. Had Daimler not given him a 50 million lifeline Tesla wouldn't be here either. So yes while you can call it a contract, had it not come along, they would not be here

Of course, had any company not gotten contracts they would be out of business.  The only thing that makes any of this interesting is the timing.  Both companies were running on fumes at the time.  I take issue with calling it a bail out.  A bail out implies charity.  Parents bail out their kids.  The gov't bailed out the S and L banks  This was not charity.  Both Nasa and Daimler expected and received what they paid for.  In fact, Daimler received an enormous cash windfall. And NASA, well lets say without SpaceX, NASA would be in a heap of trouble. 

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It funny you talk about name recognition. When the line was first announce, people here we're happy as they felt it was a new direction etc. Why? Because despite it's history, not a signal person can say anything negative about their products. 

Once it came out about insteon and smartlabs, that excitement turned sour which is funny since not a single person here has seen, touched, or used the product to really know how it stacks up.

When I first heard about it, I thought Nokia bought them and was going to put them into their world wide destruction network, invest in the technology and use best manufacturing practices.  As middling as Nokia is as a company, they definitely have the potential to take Insteon up a notch. .. it wouldn't be hard seeing as where Insteon is at present and how long it has sat there.  But it appears that this is just a logo.

 

EDIT: OK, I just saw the spell check changed distribution network to destruction network.  I don't think really highly of Nokia, but it truly isn't that bad.

[apostolakisl]

10 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

As it relates to Smartlabs using the Nokia brand if it helps drive sales to sustain the Insteon technology I'm fine by that. The proof in the pudding is seeing how the hardware is made and the components used within. As I've stated more than 999999999999999999 times here and in past threads if we see the exact same junk parts. Sh^tty soldering and more failures in their latest Hub it just affirms the whole lipstick on the pig analogy.

Any person who is serious about building a new brand would learn not to repeat the same failures as was seen in the past. I'll give the new hardware a chance to prove themselves but once I get one of these things in my hands and take one apart.

 

I couldn't agree more.  This is one of the things that I thought, yeah, a company that actually is going to use manufacturing best practices.  But . . it looks not to be.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe Nokia will say, hey wait, you can't use that crap and put our name on it.  Here, use our production facilities.  Maybe?