Insteon being discontinued?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

Looks like C4 hardware is pretty easy to come by on eBay so all we need is for somebody to finish a Node Server for it and maybe this could be a solution for folks abandoned by Insteon.

Still need the license to get it set up in the C4 system. You may find someone willing to give/sell you theirs

[Bumbershoot]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

 Many electric cars had the same problem, I was told.  On a flat surface, with an inch of slippery snow, the high torque motors would cause a wheel to slip, and between the anti-skid algorithms and some other algorithm, the car would just sit and not move. I think better feathering of the torque resolved that problem a few years ago.

I think they must have.  I live in a snowy place, and I am as surprised as anyone to see the number of Tesla's running around town in the winters here, not to mention up at the ski area.  Even Tesla's with California plates are seen running around in the snow, so people are driving them across long winter highways to get them here.

[Teken]

Of course it will happen.  Let's call it evolutionary revolution

You’re a cup is half full optimist this is clear. But once again you and others have failed to answer the most basic questions posed by me or others.

That is, why hasn’t anyone anywhere loaded up millions of people on a airplane without a human pilot(s) in the cockpit?!?

Anyone can validate everything I’ve stated about both major aircraft makers having the ability to take off, fly, and land unaided by a human. Yet people truly believe something that has been rigorously tested by every safety agency that is proven to work but NOT used.

Is the same for motor vehicles that infinity have millions of possibilities of anything happening vs a giant plane in the air?!? The only evolution that I see letting such a thing come to be is the less than bright people that seem to pervade this planet.

[DAlter01]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

 The only evolution that I see letting such a thing come to be is the less than bright people that seem to pervade this planet.

Considering the massive numbers of these people, how can you doubt it will come to pass?

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, Teken said:

I’m speaking about a train carrying all manor of cargo primarily. Next is the same using the same RR tracks. There isn’t a single train that doesn’t have human present.

As stated the same has never been done for any (public) commercial airline. Even if we dial back the litmus test of a child. You’ll never see a hundred people board a plane where there is zero human presence - ever!

Based on statistics rail is safer than planes. Air travel is exponentially safer than any vehicle no matter where in the world.

So if air travel is so safe and Boeing / Air Bus have proven they can take off, fly, and land without any human intervention.

Why hasn’t this marvellous technology been harnessed and used?!?

If one steps back and considers how many possibilities they are for a motor vehicle to be affected by whatever when compared to air travel. It’s common sense to realize it’s not possible to allow a vehicle just drive around with out human control.

Another litmus test is to remove the steering wheel. Next blind fold the passenger and have them sit in the back.

You’ll never see millions of people step up to the plate.

If anyone was serious about doing this I can safely state I have two test tracks that can be used to validate a Go - No Go product!

The GM / Michelin proving grounds is world renowned for winter arctic testing! If any vehicle can pass these standard tests I’m in!

Never, ever happen . . .

I think people are confusing self driving with autonomous driving. Technically a car with cruise control, good brakes/rotors, tires, and alignment will drive itself if you set it and take your hands off the steering wheel on a straight road. 

Autonomous driving is your car being able to go from point A to be with zero human input and make decisions for itself. 

For example, if i put one of my drones in follow me mode, I can put my remote down and it will fly on its own while following me. Depending on the obstacle, i may need to pick up the remote as the sensors will err on the side of caution to avoid obstacles. This is similar to self driving cars as well as planes and trains operating. Humans are still there when stuff happens. 

While my drone technically isn't capable of autonomous flight, it comes close in return to home mode. Should I hit the button, drone lose connection with remote, or battery start to die, it'll automatically start to fly back. Depending on obstacles and settings, it'll fly back from where it's at without any input from me. Depending on the obstacle, it'll go around it without any issues. Technically, it's flying autonomously at that moment. 

Planes and trains are similar to what my drone does in follow me mode. They don't necessarily need someone controlling it. However, people are still there at times for when they are needed. Even with stuff that runs on its own (outside of transportstion, human intervention is still possible for a reason. 

Saying remove a steering wheel makes absolutely no sense. Even if cars were truly capable of autonomous driving, they'd still have steering wheels for a multitude of reasons. For starters, not everyone will want to use it. Even with my car, outside of me testing the system, I'll still drive it because I want the control. The system is still engaged just in case something distracts me but i want to be in control. 

As the technology improves it's younger generations who will use it. It's like computers are to the elderly who never had to use them vs young kids today. When it comes to self driving and autonomous driving, we're the elderly. Our grandkids and great grand kids will be the ones growing up driving with these systems in place so trust in them will be established in adulthood. Regulations will still require them to know HOW to drive. They'll simply defer to that more than we do and will

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Just looked it up, that is a beauty.  I haven't seen one in person or online before.

I had to wait a year to get mine. I originally wanted the G80 (car version) but when I saw that, I had to get it.  There's a few bugs in it but that was expected with it being first generation. Overall though I'm happy

[Teken]

Never is a long time.  For cars the "millions using it" threshold might not be in 10 years but will for sure be here in 20.  Of this I'm sure. It will be 20-50x safer than a human controlled auto. 
The winter driving you speak of isn't the norm for much of the world.  That complication will hinder adoption in some areas that experience those conditions but that objection will not be much of an obstacle for a large portion of the population.  I'm not suggesting only autonomous vehicles will exist in 20 years.  But, for those wanting an autonomous vehicle (with human control as a backup for winter conditions, etc), it will be available and the choice of millions.

Never is indeed a very long time for anything. Just to change gears for a moment lots of people are completely surprised to learn my position on self driving vehicles.

Those who know me see I embrace technology with a quickness - to a point.

That technology spans almost everything imaginable to help provide the safety, security, and sometimes the convenience I seek. But no where do I ever use technology to circumvent basic health & safety!

As it relates to the GM / Michelin proving grounds it’s used primarily for arctic winter testing. But is also used year round for spring - rain, and blazing hot dry summers. The test site has one major road course and two auxiliary ones which can be changed to inject typical obstacles and hazards found in real life roadways.

My position is if any company is able to faithfully, repeatedly, pass these basic to advanced tests vs a human driver. Then, I’ll consider the technology has advanced far enough where I could sit in the back seat blindfolded.

The very fact not one single company has taken on this world renowned standardized test proves the technology isn’t ready or capable to do the same.

That’s telling along with the silence of the masses unwilling to hop into a airplane without a human pilot!

[lilyoyo1]

25 minutes ago, Teken said:

You’re a cup is half full optimist this is clear. But once again you and others have failed to answer the most basic questions posed by me or others.

That is, why hasn’t anyone anywhere loaded up millions of people on a airplane without a human pilot(s) in the cockpit?!?

Anyone can validate everything I’ve stated about both major aircraft makers having the ability to take off, fly, and land unaided by a human. Yet people truly believe something that has been rigorously tested by every safety agency that is proven to work but NOT used.

Is the same for motor vehicles that infinity have millions of possibilities of anything happening vs a giant plane in the air?!? The only evolution that I see letting such a thing come to be is the less than bright people that seem to pervade this planet.

I actually answered you a while back when I said, people are needed because the systems can and will fail. The systems aren't perfect.

With that said, you are confusing self driving/flying with autonomous transportation. 

Even with Tesla, while they are pushing their FSD system, it's still self driving not autonomous. Their own words back up what I'm saying as they say their system will LEAD to autonomous driving but is not capable of that at this time. 

[asbril]

29 minutes ago, Teken said:

You’re a cup is half full optimist this is clear. But once again you and others have failed to answer the most basic questions posed by me or others.

That is, why hasn’t anyone anywhere loaded up millions of people on a airplane without a human pilot(s) in the cockpit?!?

Anyone can validate everything I’ve stated about both major aircraft makers having the ability to take off, fly, and land unaided by a human. Yet people truly believe something that has been rigorously tested by every safety agency that is proven to work but NOT used.

Is the same for motor vehicles that infinity have millions of possibilities of anything happening vs a giant plane in the air?!? The only evolution that I see letting such a thing come to be is the less than bright people that seem to pervade this planet.

Teken,  I wish this topic would flow to the Coffee shop....

With the greatest respect, your airplane argument goes through thin air  . The hypothesis is that there will (eventually) be far fewer accidents with self driving cars that communicate with one another, the road and weather, than with people driving the cars. But if a self driving car breaks down, or even has an accident, it is on the road, not in the air.

Who knows, maybe in a hundred years we even may have your self flying planes, but my belief in self driiving cars is based on current possibilities and developments.

Huge amounts of money are invested in self driving cars and trucks.  I refer you to a recent 60 Minutes segment on self driving trucks.

[DAlter01]

19 minutes ago, Teken said:

Never is indeed a very long time for anything. Just to change gears for a moment lots of people are completely surprised to learn my position on self driving vehicles.

Those who know me see I embrace technology with a quickness - to a point.

That technology spans almost everything imaginable to help provide the safety, security, and sometimes the convenience I seek. But no where do I ever use technology to circumvent basic health & safety!

As it relates to the GM / Michelin proving grounds it’s used primarily for arctic winter testing. But is also used year round for spring - rain, and blazing hot dry summers. The test site has one major road course and two auxiliary ones which can be changed to inject typical obstacles and hazards found in real life roadways.

My position is if any company is able to faithfully, repeatedly, pass these basic to advanced tests vs a human driver. Then, I’ll consider the technology has advanced far enough where I could sit in the back seat blindfolded.

The very fact not one single company has taken on this world renowned standardized test proves the technology isn’t ready or capable to do the same.

That’s telling along with the silence of the masses unwilling to hop into a airplane without a human pilot!

You are right, of course, but only for today and tomorrow. But there will be a tomorrow when that course will be tackled autonomously.  My point is that it WILL happen.  I don't know when but that tomorrow will be sooner than you seem to think which you have stated is never. 

I live in Phoenix and we have a fair number of autonomous cars running around here collecting data on what could happen.  There is a driver behind the wheel to solve problems the car cannot solve on its own.  This doesn't mean an accident, just something where the car didn't do what is considered a "good" decision.  The engineers then study the problem to figure out how to teach the car to solve that type of problem on its own in the future.  There are other cities that have the same process with different problems that Phoenix doesn't offer.  They have logged tens of millions of miles in real world experiences.  Already their accident rate (accidents/mile) is lower than the average human driver.  But it will need to be much, much lower before the technology is commercially viable.  

I've read those back-up drivers can go weeks without intervening (having a problem the car cannot handle).  Talk about a boring job, I couldn't do it. 

One of the stories I heard that I thought was funny is down in Tempe there was a car stuck at a stop sign and it couldn't enter the intersection because the car was programmed too defensively.  The human controlled regular cars were more assertive and the autonomous car would just sit there waiting for its "turn" which didn't come until the human took control.  That was probably three years ago and I'm sure they figured out a solution to this problem.  

[Teken]

I think people are confusing self driving with autonomous driving. Technically a car with cruise control, good brakes/rotors, tires, and alignment will drive itself if you set it and take your hands off the steering wheel on a straight road. 
Autonomous driving is your car being able to go from point A to be with zero human input and make decisions for itself. 
For example, if i put one of my drones in follow me mode, I can put my remote down and it will fly on its own while following me. Depending on the obstacle, i may need to pick up the remote as the sensors will err on the side of caution to avoid obstacles. This is similar to self driving cars as well as planes and trains operating. Humans are still there when stuff happens. 
While my drone technically isn't capable of autonomous flight, it comes close in return to home mode. Should I hit the button, drone lose connection with remote, or battery start to die, it'll automatically start to fly back. Depending on obstacles and settings, it'll fly back from where it's at without any input from me. Depending on the obstacle, it'll go around it without any issues. Technically, it's flying autonomously at that moment. 
Planes and trains are similar to what my drone does in follow me mode. They don't necessarily need someone controlling it. However, people are still there at times for when they are needed. Even with stuff that runs on its own (outside of transportstion, human intervention is still possible for a reason. 
Saying remove a steering wheel makes absolutely no sense. Even if cars were truly capable of autonomous driving, they'd still have steering wheels for a multitude of reasons. For starters, not everyone will want to use it. Even with my car, outside of me testing the system, I'll still drive it because I want the control. The system is still engaged just in case something distracts me but i want to be in control. 
As the technology improves it's younger generations who will use it. It's like computers are to the elderly who never had to use them vs young kids today. When it comes to self driving and autonomous driving, we're the elderly. Our grandkids and great grand kids will be the ones growing up driving with these systems in place so trust in them will be established in adulthood. Regulations will still require them to know HOW to drive. They'll simply defer to that more than we do and will

I’m not confused about the topic or discussion at hand. What I have done is provide real concerns and examples of different industries that have proven it can be done.

Yet none of these industries have adopted or allowed a single mode of transport to carry the general public from A-B?!? I encourage anyone to YouTube the endless testing Boeing underwent to certify (read that again) CERTIFY!

That isn’t guessing, it’s good enough, I believe, hope. Their system and Air Bus has been rigorously tested and validated to complete all three tasks as outlined by the various government agencies that oversee air travel / transportation.

Not one taker anywhere . . .

The people who are completely confused are the smudges in the road and won the Darwin Award and no longer exists! Because these less than bright people went out of their way to ignore and circumvent a system that isn’t designed to drive unaided!

Yet you believe if the future holds vehicles have the ability to be fully autonomous that’s even better?? The only way that works is if every vehicle is the same and the infrastructure supports the same.

That will NEVER be as the vast majority of people will always be present causing untold mayhem from texting, listening, to sleeping.

To end this silly concept this time five years ago I was present at Fort Bragg and shipped to a airbase. The military had several drones now very much known to the public now (Predator) under test. The obvious goal was to see how it operated by man, programmed, autonomous.

As you noted in your little toy overall the drone was more than capable of completing very difficult maneuvers without any human interaction. The test for all intent was a success! The obvious question was the next stage of human transport.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to learn not a single soldier or commander would ever allow their peers sit in any aircraft without a human pilot! If that doesn’t nail down all the none sense about cars I don’t know what does.

You literally have hundreds of people watching a robot fly around dropping bombs, taking pictures, doing high speed maneuvers all unaided completely cut off from any satellite etc. Yet not a soul will get into a aircraft proven to autopilot from A-B???

Jesus, that’s irony . . .

[Teken]

Teken,  I wish this topic would flow to the Coffee shop....
With the greatest respect, your airplane argument goes through thin air  . The hypothesis is that there will (eventually) be far fewer accidents with self driving cars that communicate with one another, the road and weather, than with people driving the cars. But if a self driving car breaks down, or even has an accident, it is on the road, not in the air.
Who knows, maybe in a hundred years we even may have your self flying planes, but my belief in self driiving cars is based on current possibilities and developments.
Huge amounts of money are invested in self driving cars and trucks.  I refer you to a recent 60 Minutes segment on self driving trucks.

My position has never been about if the new generation of vehicles will be safer. Nor am I ignoring the gobs of R&D to achieve the same.

What I have affirmed is the most basic requirements have not or will ever be present to allow this technology to roam around at scale all over the world.

Once again no less than ten Tesla drivers absolutely know the limits of the current technology. Yet stupid went out of their way to ignore and circumvent the vehicles safety features?!?

Every sector has shown people are unpredictable and will find a way to game the system. As it pertains to HA just think about the imbeciles that have automated a table saw only to cut off their own child’s arm?!?

At the lower end of stupidity is / are people insisting upon linking their voice box to their GDO?!? Only to come home to find the largest door in the home wide open and everything gone.

Better yet to sadly see a child crushed by the same!

None of these examples are fairy tales these are events that have happened because the root cause has always been mans inability to temper his ability to create vs doing so.

One of the greatest achievements of mankind was splitting of the atom. Yet again man has proven forever to do only two things well: Taking & Killing

So instead of the entire world running so called clean nuclear power. We have millions of nuclear weapons sitting and waiting to blow someone off the map! This time five years ago a thread in the Coffee Shop foretold the coming of Terminator and the end of days.

As always the less than bright summarily dismissed the whole conversation as hyperbole and tin foil hat conjecture.

Oh yeah ???

We only have robots on the streets, drones in the air, self landing drones on a aircraft carrier, self flying refuelling drones, and dog looking things that came right out of the TV show Black Mirror??

Opening doors, climbing stairs, strapped with machine guns?!?

[upstatemike]

So I understand the argument that Smarthome is only cutting the items that are not profitable but I'm wondering where the line is exactly? Looking today I see there are no more Toggle switches. In 2-Wire dimmers there are no more in White. Ivory and Almond are still available in single pieces but no 5 packs. Single Scene Mini Remotes are now gone. The On/Off Switch is White only now. White dimmer outlets are gone, just selling off the remaining Ivory and Almond ones. etc.

How much more do you think they will cut the product line down?

[Teken]

No. That is the law, governed by groups of people that have considered all the factors (hopefully) that dictate the laws telling people, money hungry businesses, and show-off grandstanders, that they are not permitted to do these things.
I am sure, if it was legal some Musk guy could pay a sucker to do it  with the public's tax money..

Your reply like others absolutely does NOT answer the root questions. Both Air Bus & Boeing have systems that are CERTIFIED and PROVEN to complete all three tasks unaided.

The highest litmus test (Military) who take more risks than any industry has not, will not, ever transport their soldiers in any vehicle without the aid of a in seat pilot!

The military isn’t bound by conventional laws and sure as sh^t have them changed if theirs a need for X vs Y. Happens every year to allow something so illegal and absurd but it’s done!

If anyone wants to challenge me about this go search for the latest stupidity from America. A missile based on a freaking cartoon that ejected samurai swords to cut their foes?!?

Does that sound like ten kinds of stupid???

Yes it does but America uses not one but two of this cartoon ideas made it into reality on the guise of reduced collateral damage???

That is plain Stupid, epically and utterly stupid.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Still need the license to get it set up in the C4 system. You may find someone willing to give/sell you theirs

I'm assuming the folks selling C4 Controllers have likely ditched their whole system so would sell their license. I'll look at some of the descriptions for the controllers for sale on eBay to see if they mention the license at all.

[upstatemike]

7 minutes ago, Teken said:

If anyone wants to challenge me about this go search for the latest stupidity from America. A missile based on a freaking cartoon that ejected samurai swords to cut their foes?!?

Does that sound like ten kinds of stupid???

Was this developed by Smartlabs by any chance?

[Teken]

Was this developed by Smartlabs by any chance?

I walked into that.

[Teken]

I'm assuming the folks selling C4 Controllers have likely ditched their whole system so would sell their license. I'll look at some of the descriptions for the controllers for sale on eBay to see if they mention the license at all.

So let’s say you find everything you need including a license. You’re going to program it how??

[upstatemike]

5 minutes ago, Teken said:

So let’s say you find everything you need including a license. You’re going to program it how??

I'm sure the person who develops the C4 Node Server will allow me to do everthing from there... no C4 programming knowledge required.

[Teken]

I'm sure the person who develops the C4 Node Server will allow me to do everthing from there... no C4 programming knowledge required.

The C4 NS allows complete access and control of the C4 hardware and not just basic settings?

[upstatemike]

27 minutes ago, Teken said:

The C4 NS allows complete access and control of the C4 hardware and not just basic settings?

I'm sure it will, as soon as somebody writes one.

[kclenden]

6 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Already their accident rate (accidents/mile) is lower than the average human driver.

I often see this stated, but simply do not believe it.  Why?  Several reasons.  First, not a single manufacturer has released their driving data for independent review.  Second, even if the data supports this statement, the data that has been collected so far is for the easiest stages of driving - driving on limited access roadways.  What happens when the most difficult stages of driving start impacting the data?  Intersections.  People.  Animals.  Bad weather.

Musk says Teslas in autopilot are X% safer than human drivers and you believe him?  So did you believe him when he said you'd be able to employ your Tesla as an autonomous taxi by the end of 2020?  Did you believe him when he said five years ago that FSD would be available in a year?

As someone with a BS in Computer Science, my view of when fully autonomous cars will be available clearly falls between the extremes already espoused on here.  But beyond the technology, I haven't seen any discussion about non-technical obstacles that remain:

• Bugs or faults - Currently GM Bolt drivers aren't supposed to park their cars in their garage because of the risk of fire.  Besides being really inconvenient, it also makes it really hard to charge their car overnight which makes it difficult to drive their car.  They've been told to sit tight while GM works on a fix.  What happens when a manufacturer discovers a bug or fault that impacts all of their models and millions of people are told they can't use their car for an extended period of time?
• Terrorism - What happens when the first terrorist hacks an autonomous system and tens, hundreds or thousands of people are injured or killed and millions of people are either no longer allowed, or simply won't use their autonomous vehicles?
• Jealous husband - see terrorism.  While perhaps killing only a single spouse, the repercussions could be the same.
• Legal - Who is responsible for the actions of an autonomous vehicle?  Passengers?  Owner?  Manufacturer?  What happens when they turn on each other?  What impact will the first class action law suit by owners against a manufacturer have on people's willingness to trust their autonomous vehicle?

@Teken keeps bringing up trust as a key obstacle to adoption of autonomous vehicles and I couldn't agree more.  Believe it or not, we're in the rosy part of the autonomous vehicle development stage.  Wait until we hit some bumps and see how quickly people will turn on their driving overlords, and by doing so force government to step in.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

So let’s say you find everything you need including a license. You’re going to program it how??

I see there are folks on eBay who are selling remote programming services pretty cheap. Doesn't look like this will be an issue.

[Teken]

I often see this stated, but simply do not believe it.  Why?  Several reasons.  First, not a single manufacturer has released their driving data for independent review.  Second, even if the data supports this statement, the data that has been collected so far is for the easiest stages of driving - driving on limited access roadways.  What happens when the most difficult stages of driving start impacting the data?  Intersections.  People.  Animals.  Bad weather.
Musk says Teslas in autopilot are X% safer than human drivers and you believe him?  So did you believe him when he said you'd be able to employ your Tesla as an autonomous taxi by the end of 2020?  Did you believe him when he said five years ago that FSD would be available in a year?
As someone with a BS in Computer Science, my view of when fully autonomous cars will be available clearly falls between the extremes already espoused on here.  But beyond the technology, I haven't seen any discussion about non-technical obstacles that remain:

• Bugs or faults - Currently GM Bolt drivers aren't supposed to park their cars in their garage because of the risk of fire.  Besides being really inconvenient, it also makes it really hard to charge their car overnight which makes it difficult to drive their car.  They've been told to sit tight while GM works on a fix.  What happens when a manufacturer discovers a bug or fault that impacts all of their models and millions of people are told they can't use their car for an extended period of time?
• Terrorism - What happens when the first terrorist hacks an autonomous system and tens, hundreds or thousands of people are injured or killed and millions of people are either no longer allowed, or simply won't use their autonomous vehicles?
• Jealous husband - see terrorism.  While perhaps killing only a single spouse, the repercussions could be the same.
• Legal - Who is responsible for the actions of an autonomous vehicle?  Passengers?  Owner?  Manufacturer?  What happens when they turn on each other.  What impact will the first class action law suit by owners against a manufacturer have on people's willingness to trust their autonomous vehicle?

@Teken keeps bringing up trust as a key obstacle to adoption of autonomous vehicles and I couldn't agree more.  Believe it or not, we're in the rosy part of the autonomous vehicle development stage.  Wait until we hit some bumps and see how quickly people will turn on their driving overlords, and by doing so force government to step in.

It’s not just trust it’s the fact there are simple realities of life which dictates human must always be ever present. Does it stop anyone from trying to push the boundaries of technology of now?

Of course not . . .

I would love to enter any mode of transport and do something else. Guess what that by default makes you a PASSENGER!

This is why there are industries that span taxi, limo, Uber, Lift, transit, etc.

When you’re in the DRIVERS SEAT you’re NOT a passive PASSENGER you’re an active DRIVER.

The very fact people can’t grasp this simple and basic concept belies belief?!?

As kclenden clearly notes any stats or figures are filtered cherry picked stats. I mean people keep going on with crystal ball guesses X will be vs Y. I can tell everyone today with a very high confidence level you’ll never see a commercial plane carrying hundreds of people from Toronto to NYC without a human pilot at the helm - ever.

The only caveat in this statement is the change in mentality of stupid. If reasonable people are replaced by imbeciles changing laws, regulations, and people willing to push stupid - it will!

This wave of change arrived ten years ago with the so called cloud power. This change came when people had no skin in the game and decided to put humans in shipping containers to direct drones to kill people.

This wave of change came when people who literally are too stupid to live ignored something that has been written about, portrayed in endless movies and books. That connecting everything (networked) will result in massive damage and loss.

The premise of one of the most epic TV series is BSG. All of their systems were networked to operate as one to react faster than any human being ever could. Then one day a stupid human helped the Cylones insert a virus.

This disabled every system around the universe and allowed the machines to kill 99% of the population!

I know lots of people who really enjoy how I’ll use a fictional example to bolster my points. Only to come back and offer real ones that no one can dispute or counter as I’ve done here 9999889898 times?!?

Wait for it . . .

What does Teken have cooking?

Whelps, glad you asked!

You guessed it people literally shutting down a power plant! But yeah networking billions of cars is the right thing to do with no common sense to protect the same from who??

Human . . .

[upstatemike]

Just got an email from Smarthome listing items that they "hand-picked for me". Most of them are things that are sold out and can't be ordered so... ? Must be some underlying cleverness to their marketing strategy that I am not seeing.