Insteon being discontinued?

[Mustang65]

Thanks @Teken

[Teken]

21 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Thanks @Teken

No worries just wanted to offer that insight and clarification since the question was asked. For those who are very serious about power quality monitoring or just want to know random bits of information with - facts. This is a very old image capture of one of three systems that helps me know exactly what is happening every Ns each day.

It should be clearly noted this one test system was dialed in to be very sensitive to capture everything. Even if the line voltage was within normal power quality specifications. Regardless, you can see the power quality monitor line frequency, H-N-Sag's, with the duration, degree's, and end time.

Also, there are a few examples of me validating my power system vs actual faults on the power line from the POCO. Things to keep in mind for those unaware *Dirty Power* encompasses many attributes from surge, sag, and slow rise / slow lull. As such no SPD / TVSS will protect the home from what people related to a *Brown Out* condition. Only a UPS of proper design can offer some form of protection within its design limits.

The use of AVR / UPS systems at the point of use (Type 3) are the only reasonable solutions for the general populace. Anyone who has the ability to integrate a hybrid power solution (battery bank / invertor) solution or better yet off grid. Are further ahead than the vast majority of people connected to the grid as it relates to clean power.

 

[Mustang65]

I just ordered the replacement capacitor parts kit from ebay. Thank you to whomever is making this available, sure beats manually ordering the parts. As I am very busy now.... my wife has found a new meaning to "Voice Activation" since ISY is down. She yells out "ISY turn on the living room fan", so I run over there and turn it on. I hope that this does not become a habit.. haha

[larryllix]

9 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I just ordered the replacement capacitor parts kit from ebay. Thank you to whomever is making this available, sure beats manually ordering the parts. As I am very busy now.... my wife has found a new meaning to "Voice Activation" since ISY is down. She yells out "ISY turn on the living room fan", so I run over there and turn it on. I hope that this does not become a habit.. haha

Please Live-in Man....turn on the light!

[Hoosier Daddy]

4 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Just last week Smarthome received a new shipment of the 2413S PLM.  They sold out quick with people probably picking up "back-up" units.  If you have a little bit of patience I suspect Smarthome will have more of these in stock in the coming months. 

Thanks for that information. I had no idea. Some of the commenters here probably don't realize the affect they can have with the constant 'Insteon is dying' posts. Casual hobbyists like me can read one or two threads like that and get scared off investing any more in our 994/Insteon system, assuming that the world is coming to an end.  I'm building a small retirement home and was worried about using Insteon because of the PLM issues. I feel safer about making that decision now and will definitely be buying a few PLMs when they get back in stock.

[MrBill]

38 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I just ordered the replacement capacitor parts kit from ebay. Thank you to whomever is making this available, sure beats manually ordering the parts.

his forum name is the same as the ebay name @Schlyguy... they ship from Canada but I had them in a week from when I ordered.

[DAlter01]

2 hours ago, MacMini said:

Thanks for that information. I had no idea. Some of the commenters here probably don't realize the affect they can have with the constant 'Insteon is dying' posts. Casual hobbyists like me can read one or two threads like that and get scared off investing any more in our 994/Insteon system, assuming that the world is coming to an end.  I'm building a small retirement home and was worried about using Insteon because of the PLM issues. I feel safer about making that decision now and will definitely be buying a few PLMs when they get back in stock.

None of us know the future with certainty.  But, my perspective from what I've read and scene is that Insteon will continue but all investment to expand it has stopped.  There will be no new products being launched.  They will only continue to sell key high demand items, and eventually demand will be low enough that Insteon will be no more.  And, that will likely be many years down the road.  

The company's focus is on the next generation product, the Nokia line.  Hopefully the new line will be backwards compatible with the legacy Insteon line.  Early reports are that this backward compatibility will occur, though, until it happens, one never knows. 

Also, unless they build a PLM or USB modem for the Nokia product and give UDI the necessary information for UDI to interface with it, the new product line may not be viable for the uses this forum's users have need for.  Early reports are there will be a PLM and/or USB modem in the future but there isn't word yet on giving UDI the necessary information.  They have filed with the FCC for such device but nothing definitive has been announed regarding it being manufactured or released.

There isn't much point in building a PLM or USB modem unless you open it up to outside services like UDI so I think there is a fair chance of them building that PLM and opening it up.  But, the Nokia brand has supposedly stated they are focusing on creating a retail presence before attempting to make the devices desirable to us "power" users.  So, if it is going to happen, I suspect it will be 1-2 years away, not just a few months.

All of the above may be accurate or none of it.  But, from all I've read, the above are my conclusions and perspective.

Would I build an Insteon system from scratch today.  Maybe, but with the understanding it is a gamble as it is certainly on the back end of its lifespan.  It might be 2 years, 10 years, 15 years, before it is completly gone.  Nobody knows how long it will last as I'm sure it is 100% sales related.  When it isn't profitable, it will be done.  They will not spend any money to stimulate demand or attempt to grow that side of their business.  The devices themselves will certainly last for well over 10 years which is a good long life.  The only exception may be the PLM.  I've got two back-up units and two of the capacitor replacement kits.  

[Mustang65]

While on the subject of my electrical issues, here is what I am in the process of doing to enhance my house's outdated electrical system. Replacing my VERY OLD service panel with this new "Remote Controlled" Leviton Load Center. Nice! One more thing to go bad.

I was going to go with the Schneider Electric "PowerLink" product which would have allowed me to control each breaker with a micro-controller interface of my own, but the city would not approve the job if I did not have the control leads from the each of the breakers connected to anything. The Powerlink would have given me 2 way control to either trip or reconnect a breaker whereas the Leviton system only allows me to disconnect the breaker. Per a conversation with Levinton, they are looking into upgrading the breakers for both connect/disconnect capabilities. I also purchased some NON-Remote activated breakers for backup.... just in case!

I was going to program the Raspberry Pi to monitor for lightning intensity (with lightning sensor) and if it was a bad storm disconnect the breakers that have sensitive electronics on them. After the storm passed and based on the lightning sensor, it would reactivate the breakers. This option would have been nice while we were traveling. Levinton's concern was that if a breaker tripped on its own that the owner would just remotely reactivate it without researching the problem. A valid reason.

Also included in the Levinton system that I purchased is the ability to monitor the loads on each breaker. I currently have a Brultech system which I would consider the top of the line for Energy Management and this is not going to be eliminated. Levinton does not have an API interface in order to get and store Energy data. They said they are looking into that also. I will not hold my breath on that one.

There also is an iPhone app (below picture) that you can use to open a circuit and get the Load Center information.

I also like the feature where the Hot and Neutral wires for each circuit are terminated at each breaker location. Better for trouble shooting.

Ignore the 220VAC dryer cable which is terminated in the panel. This is for testing purposes only. I connected it to the dryer outlet to insure that everything was working properly. I did have one breaker that was non responsive and Leviton sent me a replacement that I received in 2 days. Nice!

This week I hope to begin wiring in the regular circuits with 12/2 AWG w/Ground Romex wire. I measured what is needed for each circuit and I am pre-cutting each length. All the existing cables (except HVAC, Hot Water Heater, Electric stove, Dryer) run into the soffit and about 8' to numerous electrical 4x4 electrical boxes. I have added a 2nd 2.5" conduit that goes between the load center and soffit as the existing 2.5" conduit is packed solid with wires. On the day I get the electrician to come out, I will get up early and disconnect the existing wiring in the attic and wire in the new circuits so that it will be ready for the electrician to pull the electric meter, shut down the electric service, remove the old circuit wiring, swing the new load center into position, mount it, connect the HVAC, Dryer, Hot Water Heater, stove cables and hook up the main service to it. Should be an easy job for the electrician. Wait, nothing goes that easy!

 

[auger66]

9 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

 . . .

I guess I will also look at the PLM repair posts to see what parts I need to purchase, so I can possibly get some of these old PLM's back in operation again. Still going to move to Z-Wave and other devices. This Insteon is getting to be to stressful.

 

Awhile back in a post, some helpful person bought a USB PLM and just swapped out the daughter board of the failed serial PLM. It worked and looked like a simple job, but I haven't done it personally. I've never had a PLM failure.

Smarthome still has USB PLMs. I got one on sale a few months ago just in case. 

[jnaiser60]

On 10/23/2021 at 7:00 PM, auger66 said:

Awhile back in a post, some helpful person bought a USB PLM and just swapped out the daughter board of the failed serial PLM. It worked and looked like a simple job, but I haven't done it personally. I've never had a PLM failure.

Smarthome still has USB PLMs. I got one on sale a few months ago just in case. 

Done it. works fine. very easy.

[TrojanHorse]

I don’t understand why people think someone would buy a company simply to liquidate and shut it down later. Insteon was not an asset play in my opinion - it’s a going concern. Insteon will live


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

33 minutes ago, TrojanHorse said:

I don’t understand why people think someone would buy a company simply to liquidate and shut it down later. Insteon was not an asset play in my opinion - it’s a going concern. Insteon will live


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is done frequently when larger companies want the competition out of the way. The more popular method is to launch a huge lawsuit against the smaller company and have them fold up to avoid a perceived $Billion court battle.

I doubt either one applies to Insteon, in this case. I think it is just a person with too much (daddy's?)  money and not enough business experience created a sole proprietor investment company, wanting to own something. Maybe got it cheaply?

[TrojanHorse]

That is done frequently when larger companies want the competition out of the way. The more popular method is to launch a huge lawsuit against the smaller company and have them fold up to avoid a perceived $Billion court battle.
I doubt either one applies to Insteon, in this case. I think it is just a person with too much (daddy's?)  money and not enough business experience created a sole proprietor investment company, wanting to own something. Maybe got it cheaply?

I hear you and understand how these transactions and actions sometimes have ulterior motives . But why pay Nokia for their name on new devices? I believe Insteon lives!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, TrojanHorse said:

I hear you and understand how these transactions and actions sometimes have ulterior motives . But why pay Nokia for their name on new devices? I believe Insteon lives!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree, but many think the attempt to live may be misguided. Time will tell. I hope somebody kicks things into place. I hope Nokia has some input on the marketing they haven't been doing. I fear we have less than five years for Insteon to disappear completely.

I see a large swing of dedication away from Insteon, after the last round of BS and confusion,  here too. There are so many other options now and most just want to talk their devices on and off. Insteon can't do that without another box and the types of devices has been slowly collapsing. **SIGH**

[upstatemike]

Smartlabs could shut down Insteon and still continue to make the Nokia product. They could license other partners in arrangements similiar to Nokia and completely exit the retail and marketing parts of the business.

[larryllix]

34 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Smartlabs could shut down Insteon and still continue to make the Nokia product. They could license other partners in arrangements similiar to Nokia and completely exit the retail and marketing parts of the business.

That could be a really good thing. I get the impression SmartHome hasn't done any manufacturing for a few years and it is all contracted out now anyway. Enlisting a name brand and a better marketing team may help things out. Insteon was always slammed for being a single-sourced  product. It may be a good compromise.

[lilyoyo1]

Long term, i hghly doubt insteon as we know it will exist. Not because smartlabs is going out of business but due to the fact there is no point in maintaining 2 lines (in the same price point) that does the same thing. They are a small company so it would be difficult to do so the way Leon is able to work so of their different lines.

 

It's just like UDI with the 994 and Polisy. Once polisy is completely up and running, there really is no reason to keep the current 994 in the lineup. 

[upstatemike]

Of course we expect Polisy will replicate all of the current functionality that the 994 has so nobody will have a reason to miss it. Will Nokia eventually have all of the functionality that Insteon has? Will there be a Nokia PLM or Nokia fixture modules?

[larryllix]

7 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Of course we expect Polisy will replicate all of the current functionality that the 994 has so nobody will have a reason to miss it. Will Nokia eventually have all of the functionality that Insteon has? Will there be a Nokia PLM or Nokia fixture modules?

My belief is that should, and may, run two name brands. User want to hear "Second sourced"  with two brand names, despite Zwave all being singled sourced until a year ago. It was just that nobody knew it.

[lilyoyo1]

17 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Of course we expect Polisy will replicate all of the current functionality that the 994 has so nobody will have a reason to miss it. Will Nokia eventually have all of the functionality that Insteon has? Will there be a Nokia PLM or Nokia fixture modules?

Have all of what functionality? The new line already does what insteon can do- and more. It's the same exact code. 

If you're referring to past device lineup then no it will not. They disco'd devices for a reason. I doubt they'd turn around and release the same non selling devices under a different name. With it being a new line, they'll still grow the portfolio over time. With what devices and time frame, I don't know

[upstatemike]

3 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Have all of what functionality? The new line already does what insteon can do- and more. It's the same exact code. 

If you're referring to past device lineup then no it will not. They disco'd devices for a reason. I doubt they'd turn around and release the same non selling devices under a different name. With it being a new line, they'll still grow the portfolio over time. With what devices and time frame, I don't know

Functionality like integration with other systems like with a PLM.

[lilyoyo1]

37 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Functionality like integration with other systems like with a PLM.

As I stated before (many times), the code is the same exact code. It can work with other systems now if they would release the api for them so that other systems could add them to their databases. 

I'll cover this one last time before I check out of this argument again. The isy can currently add the device (No new plm needed). SImilar to past devices that were unsupported, they add as an unsupported device. The isy can send the on, off, and dim commands to each corresponding device and they will respond to the command sent. However, unless the ISY queries the device, it does not know the status if they are manually controlled. Multi function devices such as the keypad only expose their main loads so you would not have access to the other buttons. This is not a plm issue. It is a software issue and it would be on smartlabs to release the necessary information and for developers to choose to support it. For those who know how to reverse engineer insteon (cough cough @Michel Kohanim?) they could add it to their systems now if they chose too. UDI has already stated they will not be doing so and I agree with their reasons completely. Just saying that its technically possible. 

Manually linking to existing insteon devices are also possible with no limitations other than the effort it takes to manually link devices. 

In short, no functionality has been lost at all. Only additional features. Smartlabs made a conscientious decision to not integrate with other systems at this time. Hopefully, they change their minds soon as I think its a great product. For me its a moot point. Once Ra3 comes out im switching to that in this house and our other house will be C4 (maybe Ra3 if I end up liking it more than C4 switches) once finished.  

[upstatemike]

39 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

As I stated before (many times), the code is the same exact code. It can work with other systems now if they would release the api for them so that other systems could add them to their databases. 

I'll cover this one last time before I check out of this argument again. The isy can currently add the device (No new plm needed). SImilar to past devices that were unsupported, they add as an unsupported device. The isy can send the on, off, and dim commands to each corresponding device and they will respond to the command sent. However, unless the ISY queries the device, it does not know the status if they are manually controlled. Multi function devices such as the keypad only expose their main loads so you would not have access to the other buttons. This is not a plm issue. It is a software issue and it would be on smartlabs to release the necessary information and for developers to choose to support it. For those who know how to reverse engineer insteon (cough cough @Michel Kohanim?) they could add it to their systems now if they chose too. UDI has already stated they will not be doing so and I agree with their reasons completely. Just saying that its technically possible. 

Manually linking to existing insteon devices are also possible with no limitations other than the effort it takes to manually link devices. 

In short, no functionality has been lost at all. Only additional features. Smartlabs made a conscientious decision to not integrate with other systems at this time. Hopefully, they change their minds soon as I think its a great product. For me its a moot point. Once Ra3 comes out im switching to that in this house and our other house will be C4 (maybe Ra3 if I end up liking it more than C4 switches) once finished.  

As I have stated many times before the API is part of the functionality. Not releasing an updated API is the same as removing functionality. 

One last time, I am not arguing, just engaging in a discussion. My purpose is to improve my understanding (or sometimes provide amusement) not promote a point of view. I am old so sometimes I am slow to grasp certain points and need additional clarification so I guess that is on me.

Manual linking is not, and never has been a practical way to manage Insteon devices.

Lack of access to manual status changes or additional buttons or features is a loss of functionality from original Insteon. It does not matter why; Smartlabs business decisions, UDI business decisions or whatever.

For me it is a moot point because the Nokia stuff remains Vaporware unless they ever manage to ship any of it and X10.com is adding new products to their lineup even as Smartlabs slashes their offerings. I'm going to use X10 to cover the fixture and plugin products that Smartlabs has abandoned and just get on with my life without worrying about the future of Insteon... except as a running joke of course.

[lilyoyo1]

48 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

As I have stated many times before the API is part of the functionality. Not releasing an updated API is the same as removing functionality. 

One last time, I am not arguing, just engaging in a discussion. My purpose is to improve my understanding (or sometimes provide amusement) not promote a point of view. I am old so sometimes I am slow to grasp certain points and need additional clarification so I guess that is on me.

Manual linking is not, and never has been a practical way to manage Insteon devices.

Lack of access to manual status changes or additional buttons or features is a loss of functionality from original Insteon. It does not matter why; Smartlabs business decisions, UDI business decisions or whatever.

For me it is a moot point because the Nokia stuff remains Vaporware unless they ever manage to ship any of it and X10.com is adding new products to their lineup even as Smartlabs slashes their offerings. I'm going to use X10 to cover the fixture and plugin products that Smartlabs has abandoned and just get on with my life without worrying about the future of Insteon... except as a running joke of course.

Thats not what functionality means. It may be your definition but to each their own. The switches themselves are fully functional in the insteon world. Them choosing to limit the scope of the line does not change nor diminish what the devices can or cannot do. They simply are not able to be used with the ISY.

Using your logic, you're saying Ra3 is less functional than Ra2 because it currently isnt supported by the ISY. Im bowing out of this now. I dont have the desire to go through this all over again

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Thats not what functionality means. It may be your definition but to each their own. The switches themselves are fully functional in the insteon world. Them choosing to limit the scope of the line does not change nor diminish what the devices can or cannot do. They simply are not able to be used with the ISY.

Using your logic, you're saying Ra3 is less functional than Ra2 because it currently isnt supported by the ISY. Im bowing out of this now. I dont have the desire to go through this all over again

Yes. At this point in time RA3 is less useful for ISY/Polisy integration and therefore less functional than RA2. It doesn't matter what new features it has if it cannot be utilized by this community at this time. It does not matter what other demographic it serves or what business priority it addresses if that doesn't apply to current users and current requirements. It doesn't matter (to us) how many new customers it attracts or how commercially successful it becomes if it does not have the functionality that we need to use it.