Insteon being discontinued?

[asbril]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Doh . . . ??

The way inflation is going, who cares about a million more or less....

[TrojanHorse]

I would say if UDI was ready and able to take on Insteon (if for sale) and purchased the same. The great debate would be over and all of us could move on with life! If the company was asking $50 million to purchase all the rights, patents, and production line access as it pertains to Smartlabs / Insteon etc.
If ten thousand of us crowd funded the same that would be only 5K per person to have vested interest.
If the asking price was 100 million that's still only 10K per person assuming ten thousand users. If there was a iron clad possibility to acquire Smartlabs (vested per person) I'd even go so far and say 100K from me would not be out of the question.

I’m in*

*Contingent upon receiving a 0.01% vote and a voice on the new Insteon forum to air grievances and make recommendations on how to run the company


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[asbril]

31 minutes ago, TrojanHorse said:

I’m in*

*Contingent upon receiving a 0.01% vote and a voice on the new Insteon forum to air grievances and make recommendations on how to run the company


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In principle, with the right valuation, I would be in, conditioned to UDI  having control. In fact my 'voting rights' would be given to Michel

[upstatemike]

In the process of upgrading my router because IoT devices are overwhelming the CPU in my existing one (Peplink Balance 20). Frustrating to have to do that since I live alone and should not need a commercial grade router. I'm not going to support any IoT scheme that contributes to eating additional LAN bandwidth or further pollutes the 2.4GHz frequency range. Somebody should just add some security to Insteon.

[TrojanHorse]

In principle, with the right valuation, I would be in, conditioned to UDI  having control. In fact my 'voting rights' would be given to Michel

I’m teasing. Just trying to have fun with the idea of 10,000 people voicing more opinions as stakeholders.

That said, if you’d give voting rights to Michel do you really care much about valuation? Just another million here and there?


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[Goose66]

9 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

How about we crowdfund anti-matter (or no-matter) which is based on node server technology ??

I wonder what a minimum order for an 802.11ac Wi-fi keypad-type light switch would be with a Chinese electronics manufacturer? Could be considerably less than $2M. Maybe a kickstarter?

BTLE for configuration of networking and then it could broadcast on the LAN for a specifically named MQTT server (the Polisy) and then send and respond to MQTT messages (It's probably clear at this point I don't know specifically how MQTT works).

Edited July 15, 2021 by Goose66

[HABit]

If you wanted a quick switch/dimmer: get a US-style paddle switch, from a vendor (quality micro switches), put a Shelly dimmer or switch in it (they are very small devices) and there you have it - Insteon replacement which natively supports WiFi with REST and MQTT. Perhaps a PGx controller soon (as soon as I get access to an ISY and my Polisy again).

That’s good for DIY or for yourselves, but in production need UL (Shelly already has UL approval so just a sub-section approval due to re-packaging).

I keep trying to convince Allterico to package their dimmer this way, but they only see a small demand in Europe as it is (dimming) just catching on there (their main market). Besides dealing with the Bulgarians is a 10x latency factor - certainly monotonic folks.

[Goose66]

I have clients that build these types of devices all the time. They get a chip/module that has the bulk of what they need, like a Telit Wi-Fi/BLE module, and these modules usually have GPIO and/or SDIO and come with a reference implementation and application development tools to add customer-specific functionality. Cannibalize an Insteon Keypad for the 120V components and replace the Insteon chip with one of these WiFi modules with some custom code and bingo. A lot of my clients also go through the UL listing application process as well once they have a prototype.

The trick is getting the circuit boards, enclosures, and other mechanical aspects manufactured in bulk and then getting the devices assembled and tested. I have clients and colleagues in the Georgia Manufacturing Alliance that could do all of this right here at home, but each would require some minimum order and the initial effort would take some cash, even if we think we could eventually sell 100,000 of them at $45 a piece when done. That's why I suggested a kickstarter. 

If it were easy, someone would have already done it.

[randyth]

3 hours ago, HABit said:

If you wanted a quick switch/dimmer: get a US-style paddle switch, from a vendor (quality micro switches), put a Shelly dimmer or switch in it (they are very small devices) and there you have it - Insteon replacement which natively supports WiFi with REST and MQTT.

...

A good solution for the hobbyist, for sure. In fact, I just ordered a Leviton 5657 momentary paddle switch (I like how the switch rests in the middle instead of up or down) to combine with a Shelly Dimmer. Unfortunately, unless I find a less expensive version of this switch or am willing to use a cheap switch that rests in an up-down/on-off state, I'm not saving much money rolling my own.

[TrojanHorse]

How about we crowdfund anti-matter (or no-matter) which is based on node server technology ? This way, anyone can build anything they want (there's NO type in node server) and they will all work with each other and with a brain such as polisy. The first products will be switches (keypads), touchpads, and sensors. Initial protocol will be WiFi (don't want to spend $10K in Z-Wave certification) and future support for LoRa.
Do I have $2M ? 
with kind regards,
Michel

I just figured out the “matter” reference. I’m in (subject to voting rights. I’ll pay extra for a name like anti-matter)


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[DAlter01]

On 7/14/2021 at 10:39 AM, Teken said:

If the asking price was 100 million that's still only 10K per person assuming ten thousand users. If there was a iron clad possibility to acquire Smartlabs (vested per person) I'd even go so far and say 100K from me would not be out of the question.

I'm in.  The tech has value, in my mind, if marketed and executed better. 

It's good to see everyone so enthused on a topic.  On the security issue, I'm by far no expert, but this is mostly a lighting/switching logic and execution system.  While it can do more, that's what it does for most.  I believe it just needs a new front end filter/firewall device or sub system that limits the access to named/authorized IP's.  And, once done, the system would be largely secure with maybe the ability for some actor to hack your lights.  But, with no money in that, will they??  For a consumer product, I believe having that device is enough of an illusion of security that would be necesssary.  And i believe 99.9% of current and future potential users would be satisfied with it. Again, what do I know....

[DAlter01]

And, I belive Smartlabs solf for $7.3M a few years back.  Now that the tech is about 5 years older with absolutly nothing invested in it and sales likely down substantially, maybe it could be picked up for $3 or 4M??

[DAlter01]

Maybe a call from Michel to Rob to feel out the situation???  With so much investment money floating around right now it would not likely be hard to raise a few $M for a proven quality operator like UDI to do a little vertical integration.   

[asbril]

11 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

And, I belive Smartlabs solf for $7.3M a few years back.  Now that the tech is about 5 years older with absolutly nothing invested in it and sales likely down substantially, maybe it could be picked up for $3 or 4M??

Anyone has any idea about their sales volume ?  It is difficult to estimate value without info on sales and profit margin.

[lilyoyo1]

12 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

And, I belive Smartlabs solf for $7.3M a few years back.  Now that the tech is about 5 years older with absolutly nothing invested in it and sales likely down substantially, maybe it could be picked up for $3 or 4M??

It was more than 7.3 million to purchase smartlabs. In addition to the sales price, they invested an additional 7.3 million into operations

[Teken]

It was more than 7.3 million to purchase smartlabs. In addition to the sales price, they invested an additional 7.3 million into operations

Clearly their 7.3 million investment wasn’t properly utilized! It’s not like Smartlabs fixed anything under new management besides killing off so called poor selling hardware. All the while keeping the status quo!

I mean literally nothing was updated in terms of firmware to add new features to any existing hardware besides things that should have existed since 1990!

The additional of the green / red LED into some of the switches & KPL. Was nice to see but yet again the people who work there didn’t roll out the same across the entire board!

Ten kinds of stupid is what you have.

The MSII continues to sell yet they again won’t update the firmware where everything works!

If I added up every miss opportunity or market grabbing decision they pissed away the book would look like IBM’s miss on Windows OS.

The difference between IBM & Smartlabs is they learned and continue to improve on everything they do! This can’t be said of Smartlabs as they truly believe releasing new hardware under a new look, feel, and name will change their fortunes?!?

In history if anyone is keeping score was when Insteon hardware began wide voltage support. On the surface people would think gee wow the company is investing R&D into Insteon!

No, someone somehow grabbed a brain and said you know if we ever want to expand to other markets our hardware at the core should have a wide operating range / dual frequency!

Not only does that help narrow down multi products having to be made on the line. It’s a simple process of changing out the end plug!

But yet again the people who run this circus dropped the ball and just offered a splatter of products for our brothers & sisters across the pond!

Some of the famous misses and fails is the Hub. I mean anyone who ever owned a 2412N just knew it was going to explode just like the 2413S PLM! The only difference is unlike the capacitor fail inside of the PLM the 2412N had different components like IC and network parts fail like clock work!

Then the famous 240 Load Controller which could have been one of the core bread & butter pieces of hardware. Like the 2412N the 240 Load Controller in its first iteration failed because everything inside was under rated?!?

I mean by default anything that’s 240 VAC is ASSUMED to be a high current device - No???

But stupid, continued to be stupid, waiting for this device to explode and cause nothing but grief for those using the same in pools, heaters, etc. To add insult to injury ten kinds of stupid must have gotten together. Because they decided to update the firmware and some components on the N.C vs N.O 240 Load Controller?!?

I mean this whole thing goes off the rails when you find out the two devices are literally identical. The only difference is stupid changed the position of the wiring on the relays!!!

So anyone buying one vs the other would see a hardware update and firmware. But the other would not and be screwed because it literally was left to die on the shelf until sold!

[DAlter01]

58 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It was more than 7.3 million to purchase smartlabs. In addition to the sales price, they invested an additional 7.3 million into operations

From my end I don't see where they spent even $1 of that additional money.  Nothing at the end user level changed, it only went downhill.  

[asbril]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

Clearly their 7.3 million investment wasn’t properly utilized! It’s not like Smartlabs fixed anything under new management besides killing off so called poor selling hardware. All the while keeping the status quo!

I mean literally nothing was updated in terms of firmware to add new features to any existing hardware besides things that should have existed since 1990!

The additional of the green / red LED into some of the switches & KPL. Was nice to see but yet again the people who work there didn’t roll out the same across the entire board!

Ten kinds of stupid is what you have.

The MSII continues to sell yet they again won’t update the firmware where everything works!

If I added up every miss opportunity or market grabbing decision they pissed away the book would look like IBM’s miss on Windows OS.

The difference between IBM & Smartlabs is they learned and continue to improve on everything they do! This can’t be said of Smartlabs as they truly believe releasing new hardware under a new look, feel, and name will change their fortunes?!?

In history if anyone is keeping score was when Insteon hardware began wide voltage support. On the surface people would think gee wow the company is investing R&D into Insteon!

No, someone somehow grabbed a brain and said you know if we ever want to expand to other markets our hardware at the core should have a wide operating range / dual frequency!

Not only does that help narrow down multi products having to be made on the line. It’s a simple process of changing out the end plug!

But yet again the people who run this circus dropped the ball and just offered a splatter of products for our brothers & sisters across the pond!

Some of the famous misses and fails is the Hub. I mean anyone who ever owned a 2412N just knew it was going to explode just like the 2413S PLM! The only difference is unlike the capacitor fail inside of the PLM the 2412N had different components like IC and network parts fail like clock work!

Then the famous 240 Load Controller which could have been one of the core bread & butter pieces of hardware. Like the 2412N the 240 Load Controller in its first iteration failed because everything inside was under rated?!?

I mean by default anything that’s 240 VAC is ASSUMED to be a high current device - No???

But stupid, continued to be stupid, waiting for this device to explode and cause nothing but grief for those using the same in pools, heaters, etc. To add insult to injury ten kinds of stupid must have gotten together. Because they decided to update the firmware and some components on the N.C vs N.O 240 Load Controller?!?

I mean this whole thing goes off the rails when you find out the two devices are literally identical. The only difference is stupid changed the position of the wiring on the relays!!!

So anyone buying one vs the other would see a hardware update and firmware. But the other would not and be screwed because it literally was left to die on the shelf until sold!

As is possibly known in this forum, I have no Insteon and no stake in this conversation, but I made a very rough calculation. On a $ 15 mio investment and expecting 20% earnings (not aggressive for an IT product), and assuming a 40% margin on devices, they would have to sell 150,000 devices per year.  I have no idea whether that corresponds to the reality, but personally I would be looking at a higher profitability on existing business or at least on reasonable forecast. 

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

From my end I don't see where they spent even $1 of that additional money.  Nothing at the end user level changed, it only went downhill.  

I dont see what you do with your money. Does that mean you dont spend it? Alot has actually changed on the back end that end users wouldnt see. As with many things that are still happening in the world right now, other stuff has been delayed

[lilyoyo1]

17 minutes ago, Teken said:

Clearly their 7.3 million investment wasn’t properly utilized! It’s not like Smartlabs fixed anything under new management besides killing off so called poor selling hardware. All the while keeping the status quo!

I mean literally nothing was updated in terms of firmware to add new features to any existing hardware besides things that should have existed since 1990!

The additional of the green / red LED into some of the switches & KPL. Was nice to see but yet again the people who work there didn’t roll out the same across the entire board!

Ten kinds of stupid is what you have.

The MSII continues to sell yet they again won’t update the firmware where everything works!

If I added up every miss opportunity or market grabbing decision they pissed away the book would look like IBM’s miss on Windows OS.

The difference between IBM & Smartlabs is they learned and continue to improve on everything they do! This can’t be said of Smartlabs as they truly believe releasing new hardware under a new look, feel, and name will change their fortunes?!?

In history if anyone is keeping score was when Insteon hardware began wide voltage support. On the surface people would think gee wow the company is investing R&D into Insteon!

No, someone somehow grabbed a brain and said you know if we ever want to expand to other markets our hardware at the core should have a wide operating range / dual frequency!

Not only does that help narrow down multi products having to be made on the line. It’s a simple process of changing out the end plug!

But yet again the people who run this circus dropped the ball and just offered a splatter of products for our brothers & sisters across the pond!

Some of the famous misses and fails is the Hub. I mean anyone who ever owned a 2412N just knew it was going to explode just like the 2413S PLM! The only difference is unlike the capacitor fail inside of the PLM the 2412N had different components like IC and network parts fail like clock work!

Then the famous 240 Load Controller which could have been one of the core bread & butter pieces of hardware. Like the 2412N the 240 Load Controller in its first iteration failed because everything inside was under rated?!?

I mean by default anything that’s 240 VAC is ASSUMED to be a high current device - No???

But stupid, continued to be stupid, waiting for this device to explode and cause nothing but grief for those using the same in pools, heaters, etc. To add insult to injury ten kinds of stupid must have gotten together. Because they decided to update the firmware and some components on the N.C vs N.O 240 Load Controller?!?

I mean this whole thing goes off the rails when you find out the two devices are literally identical. The only difference is stupid changed the position of the wiring on the relays!!!

So anyone buying one vs the other would see a hardware update and firmware. But the other would not and be screwed because it literally was left to die on the shelf until sold!

That was years ago, disco'd product and different ownership. Can we at least keep rants to todays issues not 10 year old issues that are no longer applicable to today

[Michel Kohanim]

13 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Maybe a call from Michel to Rob to feel out the situation??? 

I have spoken to Rob a couple of times throughout the years. He's extremely intelligent and grasps concepts almost immediately, digests and thoroughly analyzes them, and then makes decisions. The only problem is that his vision is pretty divergent from that of UD's (and me). That's why I think all this talk is going nowhere: a) Rob has a vision and b) the vision does not include third parties, and c) that vision is the complete opposite of UD's vision.
 

With kind regards,
Michel

 

[Teken]

That was years ago, disco'd product and different ownership. Can we at least keep rants to todays issues not 10 year old issues that are no longer applicable to today

I think it’s important to state and provide the history and material facts as it pertains to Smartlabs. In doing so, this will provide the general public that critical insight so they can decide to purchase, invest, commit.

Everything and everyone is judged by history.

As such it makes very little difference as to who owns what and the timeline. What matters is the company acknowledges, understands, learns, and doesn’t repeat those same historic mistakes!

Yet how many years has past since this new guy purchased and took over?!? One, two, four years???

Under his leadership what has changed in the hardware reliability or offerings??

Nothing . . .

Again, we are back to firmware where (IF) the product could be updated anything could be done!! But there is no method at the user level to do so. So take the MSII which isn’t a legacy product and was released under the new guy!

Has he or his incompetent team done anything to make this thing work more reliably??

I mean since you’re too stupid to integrate customer firmware upgrades. One would think having seen all the problems with this device they would update the same during production!

No???

Because history again shows they make X product and NEVER iterate the same!

Literally, the only time you see something get a hardware rev change is because they substituted a part for you guessed it something CHEAPER!!

At some critical point the stupid goes to the bean counter and says how are these warranty returns impacting my bottom line?!?

You would think during this same important epiphany the discussion would expand to something just as important like branding!

The fact this so called new guy has let the brand go into the dirt belies any possibility that 7 million dollars was spent correctly!

I mean four years with him at the helm didn’t help anyone that had a 2413S PLM besides it being what do you call it?

Suspended, paused, temporarily halted???

When you’re literally the only company making X product because no one wants to touch you with a ten foot pole. You by default must do better each and every day to succeed and support your customers!

Just think how a rink a dink company like Wayze started off selling a low budget high value camera.

Now, generates more revenue and is in the black since inception as a company! Continues to invest in R&D all the while iterating and improving existing hardware!

I mean the list is endless of start ups that have continued to do well during COVID-19.

That 7 million should have been put toward quality components in the hardware we use! Not to line a few peoples pockets and stupid Hub software and yet another Hub!

[Teken]

I have spoken to Rob a couple of times throughout the years. He's extremely intelligent and grasps concepts almost immediately, digests and thoroughly analyzes them, and then makes decisions. The only problem is that his vision is pretty divergent from that of UD's (and me). That's why I think all this talk is going nowhere: a) Rob has a vision and the vision does not include third parties, and c) that vision is the complete opposite of UD's vision.
 
With kind regards,
Michel
 

There isn’t a company in history that didn’t rely on 3rd party / the community at some level. Those who chose to ignore the same quickly left the market.

This discussion really isn’t about intellect vs sound business decisions that should be made that directly impact the user base.

All of us chimed in years ago what we saw as the next ISY Series Controller. That discussion a few years later materialized as the Polyisy! Is it because you’re so much smarter than Rob??

I would argue you sat down with the team and said let’s see where we are. What is on the market now that we can leverage so R&D on the hardware side is less so we can focus on the magic code that makes the world go round!

You call it vision - I call it common sense and the ability to sit down and read and listen to your customer base.

You don’t need to participate or chime in on random threads much less pick up the phone and help anyone.

Yet you do because you have a vested stake in the companies success which directly reflects the growth of UDI! Would it kill Rob to chime in or pick someone from his team to provide feedback even if it was twice a year!

The only vision this guy has is tunnel vision . . .

[DAlter01]

24 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I have spoken to Rob a couple of times throughout the years. He's extremely intelligent and grasps concepts almost immediately, digests and thoroughly analyzes them, and then makes decisions. The only problem is that his vision is pretty divergent from that of UD's (and me). That's why I think all this talk is going nowhere: a) Rob has a vision and b) the vision does not include third parties, and c) that vision is the complete opposite of UD's vision.
 

With kind regards,
Michel

 

I guess that ends the fun in speculating in that bit of hope I, and others, had.   That being said, UDI does seem to be a quality operation and the talent creating that operation would likely do a fantastic job with the Insteon brand.  

[Teken]

I guess that ends the fun in speculating in that bit of hope I, and others, had.   That being said, UDI does seem to be a quality operation and the talent creating that operation would likely do a fantastic job with the Insteon brand.  

These same discussion come up every year and is bolstered by the fact this company has zero common sense to use any form of medium to communicate! You have some loud mouth like me going on and reciting every fail they have ever done.

One would think the PR machine would spool up to calm things down?!?

Yet this company truly believes if they release new hardware under a different name & looks they will escape their past and mistakes?!?

In another life when I was tasked to rebuild companies from the ground up. I would always see the same core issues and problems as it pertains to profit / loss. One being the wrong people in the current position!

This cascades down the toilet because you have people in so called leadership that keep making decisions that are counter to the facts or market needs. I chime in these threads because I’ve been using Insteon for a long time. So have intimate knowledge as to the history and how the company operates.

If it’s true this company wants to go it alone without 3rd parties. That is all the information anyone needs to know!

Run . . . Run Quickly . . . Don’t look back!