Insteon being discontinued?

[larryllix]

51 minutes ago, Teken said:

These same discussion come up every year and is bolstered by the fact this company has zero common sense to use any form of medium to communicate! You have some loud mouth like me going on and reciting every fail they have ever done.

One would think the PR machine would spool up to calm things down?!?

Yet this company truly believes if they release new hardware under a different name & looks they will escape their past and mistakes?!?

In another life when I was tasked to rebuild companies from the ground up. I would always see the same core issues and problems as it pertains to profit / loss. One being the wrong people in the current position!

This cascades down the toilet because you have people in so called leadership that keep making decisions that are counter to the facts or market needs. I chime in these threads because I’ve been using Insteon for a long time. So have intimate knowledge as to the history and how the company operates.

If it’s true this company wants to go it alone without 3rd parties. That is all the information anyone needs to know!

Run . . . Run Quickly . . . Don’t look back!

Keep in mind, Zwave made it with only one company making a patent protected main chip. Of course they never let this out to the public until they allowed it to be licensed by other manufacturers about two years ago.

The difference? They promoted and advertised and propagandised, whatever it took, to push their market timely devices, and many brands joined in, because the "single sourced" was at the very lowest level of the hardware. They licensed it out. 

Insteon wanted to "own the whole domain" at the highest level, and any other company wanting to get a piece of it, had to go into competion against Insteon.

Hoping it doesn't happen but....   Insteon R.I.P.

[lilyoyo1]

37 minutes ago, Teken said:

I think it’s important to state and provide the history and material facts as it pertains to Smartlabs. In doing so, this will provide the general public that critical insight so they can decide to purchase, invest, commit.

Everything and everyone is judged by history.

As such it makes very little difference as to who owns what and the timeline. What matters is the company acknowledges, understands, learns, and doesn’t repeat those same historic mistakes!

Yet how many years has past since this new guy purchased and took over?!? One, two, four years???

Under his leadership what has changed in the hardware reliability or offerings??

Nothing . . .

Again, we are back to firmware where (IF) the product could be updated anything could be done!! But there is no method at the user level to do so. So take the MSII which isn’t a legacy product and was released under the new guy!

Has he or his incompetent team done anything to make this thing work more reliably??

I mean since you’re too stupid to integrate customer firmware upgrades. One would think having seen all the problems with this device they would update the same during production!

No???

Because history again shows they make X product and NEVER iterate the same!

Literally, the only time you see something get a hardware rev change is because they substituted a part for you guessed it something CHEAPER!!

At some critical point the stupid goes to the bean counter and says how are these warranty returns impacting my bottom line?!?

You would think during this same important epiphany the discussion would expand to something just as important like branding!

The fact this so called new guy has let the brand go into the dirt belies any possibility that 7 million dollars was spent correctly!

I mean four years with him at the helm didn’t help anyone that had a 2413S PLM besides it being what do you call it?

Suspended, paused, temporarily halted???

When you’re literally the only company making X product because no one wants to touch you with a ten foot pole. You by default must do better each and every day to succeed and support your customers!

Just think how a rink a dink company like Wayze started off selling a low budget high value camera.

Now, generates more revenue and is in the black since inception as a company! Continues to invest in R&D all the while iterating and improving existing hardware!

I mean the list is endless of start ups that have continued to do well during COVID-19.

That 7 million should have been put toward quality components in the hardware we use! Not to line a few peoples pockets and stupid Hub software and yet another Hub!

Their history is well documented on here. Even on this post you've repeated the same history multiple times. Outside of a few people on here, no one knows anything about the insteon company and where they were at when it was purchased. Say what you want, they are still in business and make more than any of us...so they are doing something right. Even going off everyone talking about making their own protocol, not a single person is nor will make a move towards doing so. If it were that easy, you would see more companies doing so vs buying Chinese knockoffs and putting their name on it to sell (Since you bought them up, similar to  Wyze).

As Michel so finely stated, what they are trying to do is different that what UDI and others here are trying to do. As much as people here and other forums would like, companies do not cater to us. They follow the money and MOST of society are not as passionate as power users nor do they care about most of the stuff that is discussed on here. They are looking for the cheapest product that will do what they want (hence Wyze success)

This past year I forgive any company for the choices they make. When I drive by car dealers and see empty lots, and go into stores and see empty shelves, I can see that things are not in normal times regardless of how we expect companies to respond. I can look at my own business and see the issues that are still ongoing for every company out there. Im ordering stuff for jobs months from now because things are constantly going out of stock and I cant depend on my usual window. Sure, I could find wire on amazon but its not the wire i use for my installs (nor do I get my discount). This past year has put many companies in a deep hole having to make hard decisions. Im sitting on waay too many ubiquiti and luxul access points because I know, theres a good chance they wont be in stock when I need them. Its not just insteon. Its the world we live in now. 

[lilyoyo1]

33 minutes ago, Teken said:

These same discussion come up every year and is bolstered by the fact this company has zero common sense to use any form of medium to communicate! You have some loud mouth like me going on and reciting every fail they have ever done. 

Yes we know. Yet here they are still in business while many other companies have come and gone in this same period of time.

One would think the PR machine would spool up to calm things down?!?

Yet this company truly believes if they release new hardware under a different name & looks they will escape their past and mistakes?!?
They arent in business for us. We are a very small part of the consumer market. Regardless of how passionate we may feel about Automation, the other 97% dont care. They dont need us to jump on anything they sell. They need new buyers who dont care to jump on their sales. Most havent heard of UDI or ISY yet the ISY continues to grow. All the ranting and raving people do about UDI not doing things the right way hasnt changed anything. Why???Companies DO NOT cater to people. They make their money according to their vision. They realize some will love them and some wont. 
In another life when I was tasked to rebuild companies from the ground up. I would always see the same core issues and problems as it pertains to profit / loss. One being the wrong people in the current position! This is insteon's problem.
This cascades down the toilet because you have people in so called leadership that keep making decisions that are counter to the facts or market needs. I chime in these threads because I’ve been using Insteon for a long time. So have intimate knowledge as to the history and how the company operates. 

If it’s true this company wants to go it alone without 3rd parties. That is all the information anyone needs to know!

Run . . . Run Quickly . . . Don’t look back!

 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

The fact this so called new guy has let the brand go into the dirt belies any possibility that 7 million dollars was spent correctly!

Did you not say $ 7mio in purchase and another $ 7 mio in "improvements" ?

[Teken]

Their history is well documented on here. Even on this post you've repeated the same history multiple times. Outside of a few people on here, no one knows anything about the insteon company and where they were at when it was purchased. Say what you want, they are still in business and make more than any of us...so they are doing something right. Even going off everyone talking about making their own protocol, not a single person is nor will make a move towards doing so. If it were that easy, you would see more companies doing so vs buying Chinese knockoffs and putting their name on it to sell (Since you bought them up, similar to  Wyze).
As Michel so finely stated, what they are trying to do is different that what UDI and others here are trying to do. As much as people here and other forums would like, companies do not cater to us. They follow the money and MOST of society are not as passionate as power users nor do they care about most of the stuff that is discussed on here. They are looking for the cheapest product that will do what they want (hence Wyze success)
This past year I forgive any company for the choices they make. When I drive by car dealers and see empty lots, and go into stores and see empty shelves, I can see that things are not in normal times regardless of how we expect companies to respond. I can look at my own business and see the issues that are still ongoing for every company out there. Im ordering stuff for jobs months from now because things are constantly going out of stock and I cant depend on my usual window. Sure, I could find wire on amazon but its not the wire i use for my installs (nor do I get my discount). This past year has put many companies in a deep hole having to make hard decisions. Im sitting on waay too many ubiquiti and luxul access points because I know, theres a good chance they wont be in stock when I need them. Its not just insteon. Its the world we live in now. 

I agree the world is much different than it was pre COVID-19. You know my rants, raves, and other is a sincere expression of wanting Insteon to succeed.

Those looking in for the first time would be saying this guy has to be the biggest Insteon hater - bar none!

Yet I’m a firm supporter in the technology and get really amped up when these threads pop up. The main reason is once again time and history has affirmed a slow but steady decline in the brand. Now your reply about people going off to create their own protocol is not only untrue but off base.

What I’ve read unless I missed it was people stating what some of the existing protocols should be integrated to provide a more robust and means to secure the hardware.

I provided no less than three suggestions that should be considered! Because doing so will allow a 1990 piece of hardware come into the 2000’s! Security isn’t something that anyone should have to ask or consider in the digital age it should be at its very core.

I keep reading your replies as well thought out and sincere. The problem as you stated none of us can change the minds of Smartlabs if they are dead set in a direction. But, that doesn’t mean all of us can’t, shouldn’t, won’t stop expressing our views, experiences, and ideas!

In history there are two things that have killed more people in the world. That is pride and shame! When you combine both the ending is assured!

[Teken]

Did you not say $ 7mio in purchase and another $ 7 mio in "improvements" ?

I didn’t but affirmed what lilyoyo said. Whether that number be true and accurate matters not. As this company needs to really focus on using quality parts in all hardware. They need to incorporate better surge protection while separating the RF from PL.

They need to integrate firmware updating over RF/ PL as this insures bugs, features, security can be done.

The company doesn’t need to be making all things as likyoyo states! But surely they need to be making the core products better!

Just think about the Insteon LED bulb. Consider when that was and what this company did to improve and grab market share?!? Did anyone see these fools even try to incorporate a $0.50 tricolour LED??

I mean come on coloured LED’s have boomed in sales by the billions. Yet Smartlabs is supposedly not interested in us???

Well, who the hell are they after?? Because every Tom, Dick, and Harry owns a Hue / name what ever brand light bulb!

We are not the demographics for Smartlabs per lilyoyo for smart locks?!? Just another billion dollar industry that has been literally ceded to Z-Wave / ZigBee!

We are not the demographics or client base for irrigation, environmental, analog I/O.

Nor are we supposedly not the crowd that made them successful from the very beginning?!? All of this was on the coat heels of the ISY Series Controller! So no, it matters not what number Rob and circus invested because it didn’t materialize into anything the consumer actually uses or can buy today!

[Teken]

Keep in mind, Zwave made it with only one company making a patent protected main chip. Of course they never let this out to the public until they allowed it to be licensed by other manufacturers about two years ago.
The difference? They promoted and advertised and propagandised, whatever it took, to push their market timely devices, and many brands joined in, because the "single sourced" was at the very lowest level of the hardware. They licensed it out. 
Insteon wanted to "own the whole domain" at the highest level, and any other company wanting to get a piece of it, had to go into competion against Insteon.
Hoping it doesn't happen but....   Insteon R.I.P.

That isn’t factually true as there was only a single company making said chip - this is true! But, the same company promoted and encouraged anyone to make Z-Wave. Later the parent company had enough common sense to follow a dual path of licensing both the chip technology and protocol.

Huge difference from Smartlabs where Joe’s inability to see straight and use common sense to do the same! I’ve blogged about what they should have done long ago and that was to provide the Insteon chips for free / license the same.

Not only would that help boot strap a maker it would allow growth and prosperity for all stakeholders. Just think for a moment of the largest electrical makers in the free world.

Think: Eaton, Leviton, Cooper, Pass & Seamore, Hubble, Siemens etc.

What do all of these trillion dollars companies all have in common?? You guessed it adoption of Z-Wave / ZigBee! But supposedly we are not the customer base Rob is after!

[lilyoyo1]

27 minutes ago, Teken said:

I agree the world is much different than it was pre COVID-19. You know my rants, raves, and other is a sincere expression of wanting Insteon to succeed.

Those looking in for the first time would be saying this guy has to be the biggest Insteon hater - bar none!

Yet I’m a firm supporter in the technology and get really amped up when these threads pop up. The main reason is once again time and history has affirmed a slow but steady decline in the brand. Now your reply about people going off to create their own protocol is not only untrue but off base.

What I’ve read unless I missed it was people stating what some of the existing protocols should be integrated to provide a more robust and means to secure the hardware.

I provided no less than three suggestions that should be considered! Because doing so will allow a 1990 piece of hardware come into the 2000’s! Security isn’t something that anyone should have to ask or consider in the digital age it should be at its very core.

I keep reading your replies as well thought out and sincere. The problem as you stated none of us can change the minds of Smartlabs if they are dead set in a direction. But, that doesn’t mean all of us can’t, shouldn’t, won’t stop expressing our views, experiences, and ideas!

In history there are two things that have killed more people in the world. That is pride and shame! When you combine both the ending is assured!

I have no problems with expressing views. However rehashing a regime no longer there and putting their sins on another is conducive to anything. Whatever mistakes they make I'd rather let the new regime make. 

On the outside looking in, i can see where people's impressions come from. Knowing where the company was under Joe D compared to now, is a huge difference. Yes, they've made some hard decisions this year due to an ongoing pandemic that no company could prepare for. But knowing the reasons behind it, i do understand the reasons....even if I don't like it. In their shoes, I would've done the same. Hell, I've had to make them with my own business. 

I could be off based on my interpretation. But I still stand by what I said and my reason is in line with what I've been saying. There's no money in this. Look at zwave right now. You have 1000 different companies selling stuff. What's different about any of them? Homeseer, you can change the color of some light bars. But what differentiates them from each other. None have any novel designs that make you NEED them. None operate in such a way where anyone can say, that's the one to buy.

Say what you want about insteon, nothing currently on the market can compete (within it's price point) in flexibility, scalability, programmability, and day to day use. 

Wifi, is the same thing. You do have some novel designs such as iotty. However, the other really good looking ones are all rebranded switches based off some company's design. Looks they have but aren't scalable nor as flexible. Taking those factors into account, what's to differentiate a UDI (or whatever the name is) switch from anyone else and take it to scale? At that point, it's a rebranded switch that works exactly the same way as everyone else's which becomes a race to the bottom like the rest of them

[Teken]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I have no problems with expressing views. However rehashing a regime no longer there and putting their sins on another is conducive to anything. Whatever mistakes they make I'd rather let the new regime make. 

On the outside looking in, i can see where people's impressions come from. Knowing where the company was under Joe D compared to now, is a huge difference. Yes, they've made some hard decisions this year due to an ongoing pandemic that no company could prepare for. But knowing the reasons behind it, i do understand the reasons....even if I don't like it. In their shoes, I would've done the same. Hell, I've had to make them with my own business. 

I could be off based on my interpretation. But I still stand by what I said and my reason is in line with what I've been saying. There's no money in this. Look at zwave right now. You have 1000 different companies selling stuff. What's different about any of them? Homeseer, you can change the color of some light bars. But what differentiates them from each other. None have any novel designs that make you NEED them. None operate in such a way where anyone can say, that's the one to buy.

Say what you want about insteon, nothing currently on the market can compete (within it's price point) in flexibility, scalability, programmability, and day to day use. 

Wifi, is the same thing. You do have some novel designs such as iotty. However, the other really good looking ones are all rebranded switches based off some company's design. Looks they have but aren't scalable nor as flexible. Taking those factors into account, what's to differentiate a UDI (or whatever the name is) switch from anyone else and take it to scale? At that point, it's a rebranded switch that works exactly the same way as everyone else's which becomes a race to the bottom like the rest of them

While some of your points have merit they don't reflect on the final Insteon product. So let me try to address a few of your comments before it gets lost. As you noted several times Smartlabs can't and shouldn't be in all things as it would be a *Jack of all trades - Master of none*

So, as you noted many products were disco'd due to poor sales - I get it! Makes perfect sense to drop a product that isn't selling well or at all. But, lets affirm the facts on this point so its engrained into the Internet history as they say! ?

All of these products were disco'd because NONE of them were ever improved upon - Ever

So when you or anyone says to me or the customer base X was axed due to low sales - Um Yeah! Now, as it pertains to making every widget known to man just to compete in a market segment that is over run by others?? This is a double edged sword as a company must decide if their wares has the magic to take off!

My example of introducing a tri colored LED using Insteon was just one of many examples! This company literally could have introduced a multi colored LED bulb well ahead of any Hue / Other. As the market heated up and was dominated by Hue and the likes at some critical point that same product might possibly be turfed! Yet, Smartlabs missed the boat, train, car, bike, as always  because a lack of common sense to look out the freaking window!

I mean if you live in a fricken cave maybe all that new tech couldn't / wouldn't be seen or known! But, for cripes sakes what field are we in / Smartlabs?!?!?

Home Automation Technology . . .

You watch the market, the people, market leaders as to where things are.

But, all we ever saw was some bull sh^t letter from Rob way back in the day of all the great things coming down the pipe!

Well, where is it??

As you fairly pointed out one can not place a yoke on another for others sins. But, surely after four long years what has this new guy offered in terms of better, faster??

Nothing . . .

I mean literally nothing that hasn't been expressed by me in this thread which can't be seen as a offering. Given, its like saying here's this brand new car *By the way it comes with wheels* ?‍♂️ The bar needs to be raised where most people here or other could say *Yeah that's a good move*

In a complete tangent but related I was at a huge electrical Expo and every CEO / VP was present. There was about 25 people speaking that span all of the major electrical makers I called out above. During the Q&A period Home Automation came up and you know me! My colleague asked the group to provide the audience their vision and road map as to where they were with such a thing. The feedback spanned from not entering for X reasons, to entering when Y happens, etc.

So when it came to asking what protocols would be supported or considered of course the question was asked! of the 25 or so 19 heard of X-10 and said that wasn't on the road map. 13 called out Zigbee as it has been used in industry for years in its various flavors. 6 called out Z-Wave and not a soul mentioned Insteon!

I of course piped up and name dropped Smartlabs / Insteon and the blank stare and silence was telling. So, I ask you or anyone (Rob) what have you done to increase the brand and awareness of Insteon / other?? What are you doing or have done to engage with the market leaders to bolster adoption and the success of the Insteon protocol??

The silence like the last 20 freaking years on that stage and now is - Nothing!

If Rob * Co are to be judged on their merits how about they pick up the phone, attend trade shows, use that novel social media platform called YouTube, FaceBook, Twitter, what ever lame medium to get the message and branding out there!  

 

[MrBill]

POPCORN BREAK!!

[Teken]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

POPCORN BREAK!!

It better be butttaaa not parkay! ?

[MrBill]

3 minutes ago, Teken said:

It better be butttaaa not parkay! ?

we have two kinds of buttttaah.... salted and unsalted... we do not stock the "vegetable oil spread product" (it literally says "vegetable oil spread product" on the Country Crock label).

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, MrBill said:

we have two kinds of buttttaah.... salted and unsalted... we do not stock the "vegetable oil spread product" (it literally says "vegetable oil spread product" on the Country Crock label).

Good man! ? I'm of the mindset if you're going to enjoy something that is going to give you a heart attack, clog some arteries, give you high blood pressure and cholesterol.

Why go half way?? ?

Its like when you see that 310 lbs dude in a little Chevette going through the McDonalds drive way. He orders a super big mac times three, super sized fries, three apple pies, a salad with *Light dressing* and a diet Coke??? ? That diet coke and light salad dressing was surely to make the difference - right! ?‍♂️

Smartlabs: Hey we invested 7.X million into software and another new Hub* See how great we are and the public will just gobble it up! 

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

Smartlabs: Hey we invested 7.X million into software and another new Hub* See how great we are and the public will just gobble it up! 

Public Response: You haven't done anything but delete SKU's in past 3 or 4 years, and why should we believe you put the GOOD caps in your new hub when you never did before.  BY THE WAY, it's not 1985 anymore, Insteon won't just automatically sell itself for 40+ years the way X-10 did.. now there are "other choices" a.k.a. competition...

[lilyoyo1]

33 minutes ago, Teken said:

I didn’t but affirmed what lilyoyo said. Whether that number be true and accurate matters not. As this company needs to really focus on using quality parts in all hardware. They need to incorporate better surge protection while separating the RF from PL.

They need to integrate firmware updating over RF/ PL as this insures bugs, features, security can be done.

OTA updates can be fine for bugs but reality is, there is no money in adding features. That's why you haven't seen zwave devices having features added over the many years OTA updates have been available. In fact most have never taken advantage of that feature.With that known, that hasn't stopped people from using zwave. 

Wifi switches receive updates often but why? Its  not to add new features but to keep them secure. The use of wifi switches is a security risk by default so they have no choice. Outside of regulars on here, i dount anyone walks by their switch and say "hmm, i wish I could update my switches today. Sure would be nice to spend my weekend doing so"! 

The company doesn’t need to be making all things as likyoyo states! But surely they need to be making the core products better!

They have been making core products better. I remember when I first joined this forum, it and other forums were filled with device failure after failure. Many times straight from the box. Now, not so much. Yes, devices still fail but so do all electronics. Most that pop up here are generally older generation stuff. And yes, I stand by my comment about them not making certain things. Think back to 2014, how many zwave thermostats where there? How many irrigation systems? Fast forward to 2021, how many are out there? I know someone who works for Yale (big reason how I got into them). Guess what their top 2 lock types are? Yale standard locks and August wifi locks. Zwave is far below them. 

Just think about the Insteon LED bulb. Consider when that was and what this company did to improve and grab market share?!? Did anyone see these fools even try to incorporate a $0.50 tricolour LED?? They didn't. It was a POS product that never sold. The people that worked there wasn't even interested in them. It was a pet project that was kept around as someone's toy. There's a reason you don't see market saturation of bulbs for zwave. There's no money in it. 

I mean come on coloured LED’s have boomed in sales by the billions. Yet Smartlabs is supposedly not interested in us??? Led sales have boomed. The biggest sellers are standard led bulbs. Not color changing. Phillips has most of the market. You know who #2 is (a far distant #2)????Ikea. This is why Insteon (and most zwave companies) haven't seriously invested in that market. Yes it's growing, but it's a race to the bottom in regards to pricing. But i guess in your world, you'd be ok with selling them just to say you have them regardless of how much you lose

Well, who the hell are they after?? Because every Tom, Dick, and Harry owns a Hue / name what ever brand light bulb!  Case in point. 

We are not the demographics for Smartlabs per lilyoyo for smart locks?!? Just another billion dollar industry that has been literally ceded to Z-Wave / ZigBee!

Actually most consumers purchase standard locks and wifi. Zwave and ZigBee are only huge to those it matters to. Big picture, those companies make locks so it behooves them to have a variety but neither protocol is flying off shelves for them. Its a low investment. With high markup value to keep them

We are not the demographics or client base for irrigation, environmental, analog I/O.

Nor are we supposedly not the crowd that made them successful from the very beginning?!? All of this was on the coat heels of the ISY Series Controller! So no, it matters not what number Rob and circus invested because it didn’t materialize into anything the consumer actually uses or can buy today!

We were the early adopters. We got the ball rolling. It was important then because only "techies, geeks, and nerds" wanted them. Now that the world has caught up, we aren't that important. We are the 3%ers of this stuff. There simply isn't enough of us

 

[Teken]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

You know when you reply inline to my posts all people ever see is a blank quote! ? 

Regardless, I'm not moved by the argument that just because a company (Z-Wave) hasn't released a firmware update or a person hasn't done the same. That doesn't cancel out or bolster the position that firmware ability is important.

Saying Insteon doesn't have security, firmware upgrade-ability, or Phillips / Ikea are in the market so we should just step aside.

That's your position as to why and to give Smartlabs a pass on the above?? ?‍♂️ I know I've probably stated this at least three times but it begs to be said and stated again. No one has ever said Insteon / Smartlabs should race to the bottom! Because anyone can see their hardware is by no stretch of the imagination the cheapest out there!

What people are willing to do (Vote with their wallet) as can be seen by any over priced Apple product is that people will pay whatever if it said product has value to them. When you speak about the reliability of the Insteon hardware I agree they have improved when compared to 2014. Have they improved so much during those 7 years that still commands a premium over what can be bought today??

No . . .

Have they improved upon the KPL where this is the major warranty / just out of warranty failed hardware - No!

Every Hub this company has ever designed, built, and released has failed. I don't mean failed by market sales but failed electronically. Yet, Rob and Co will continue to pursue the release of another still born product and investing even more into a smart application that stinks!

So when you say they are doing better and the forum has less people coming on with failed hardware threads. That's like saying when GM, Ford, Chrysler pipe up and state we have five million less recalls vs past years?!? GM a few years ago eclipsed ever car maker in TSB / recalls by tens and tens of millions!

Why??

The race to the bottom like the Space Shuttle . . .

The argument that just because they are doing better in no way gives them a pass when the failure rate was so crazy and how anyone could make money by dishing out the same turd YOY! When I walk in to Home Depot and purchase a Leviton (normal) switch the odds of me receiving a bunk product is so low it defies belief! This can be seen every day because Leviton uses the highest quality parts while insuring QA at a ongoing basis!

The same can't be said of Smartlabs as they will spend gobs of money on packaging instead of soldering! 

Lastly, the real conversation that should be asked is how will this company do better?? Is this by offering new hardware under a different brand and model as seen in the FCC database: Vantaa

Are people at large going to ignore its the same company, same leadership, same factory, same business as usual zero support, that will help them get out of the dirt??

There's a higher likely hood of pink elephants seen in the sky tonight than - that happening

 

[lilyoyo1]

53 minutes ago, Teken said:

You know when you reply inline to my posts all people ever see is a blank quote! ? 

Regardless, I'm not moved by the argument that just because a company (Z-Wave) hasn't released a firmware update or a person hasn't done the same. That doesn't cancel out or bolster the position that firmware ability is important.

Saying Insteon doesn't have security, firmware upgrade-ability, or Phillips / Ikea are in the market so we should just step aside.

That's your position as to why and to give Smartlabs a pass on the above?? ?‍♂️ I know I've probably stated this at least three times but it begs to be said and stated again. No one has ever said Insteon / Smartlabs should race to the bottom! Because anyone can see their hardware is by no stretch of the imagination the cheapest out there!

What people are willing to do (Vote with their wallet) as can be seen by any over priced Apple product is that people will pay whatever if it said product has value to them. When you speak about the reliability of the Insteon hardware I agree they have improved when compared to 2014. Have they improved so much during those 7 years that still commands a premium over what can be bought today??

No . . .

Have they improved upon the KPL where this is the major warranty / just out of warranty failed hardware - No!

Every Hub this company has ever designed, built, and released has failed. I don't mean failed by market sales but failed electronically. Yet, Rob and Co will continue to pursue the release of another still born product and investing even more into a smart application that stinks!

So when you say they are doing better and the forum has less people coming on with failed hardware threads. That's like saying when GM, Ford, Chrysler pipe up and state we have five million less recalls vs past years?!? GM a few years ago eclipsed ever car maker in TSB / recalls by tens and tens of millions!

Why??

The race to the bottom like the Space Shuttle . . .

The argument that just because they are doing better in no way gives them a pass when the failure rate was so crazy and how anyone could make money by dishing out the same turd YOY! When I walk in to Home Depot and purchase a Leviton (normal) switch the odds of me receiving a bunk product is so low it defies belief! This can be seen every day because Leviton uses the highest quality parts while insuring QA at a ongoing basis!

The same can't be said of Smartlabs as they will spend gobs of money on packaging instead of soldering! 

Lastly, the real conversation that should be asked is how will this company do better?? Is this by offering new hardware under a different brand and model as seen in the FCC database: Vantaa

Are people at large going to ignore its the same company, same leadership, same factory, same business as usual zero support, that will help them get out of the dirt??

There's a higher likely hood of pink elephants seen in the sky tonight than - that happening

 

You don't have to be moved by my argument but that doesn't decrease the validity of it. If it mattered to the degree you say it does, it would be used in that manner. Consumers would flock to those that do issue updates. Reality tells a different story. People still use zwave and buy products from companies that haven't utilized that ability. 

I'm not saying ota is irrelevant, only that it's overrated and not as important to people as it seems. If you like catchy buzzwords then yes it matters greatly. The same thing with encryption. Zwave has it but how many people use it? They'll try it, see the speed and remove it. All in all, those are things that matter to power users and companies know this. The lack of updates simply proves the general public doesn't care and they know that as well so they ignore it. 

Encryption is a great on paper but in real life, sucks for lighting. If my stuff is going out on the internet like a wifi switch then yes I want encryption. But if you have to walk up to my house, stand outside to hack my lights only turn them off and on then I'll pass. Speed is more important. 

I'm not saying instoen shouldn't do anything because of hue. You're harping on i stein not doing stuff but give zwave a pass for not doing the same. I'd shut up if you had the same arguments against zwave that you do for insteon. You rail on a single company for not doing A-Z but give a consortium a pass for not doing the same. Looking at the market, if I were to produce something, bulbs is the last thing I'd produce. Outside of a couple of companies, it's a race to the bottom. 

Your argument is from the outside in without any information about the inside. Its like all these people trying to tell the President what he should do when they've never attending a briefing in their life. I know I'm not privy to a lot but i do know alot about the inside happenings. Knowing where the company was vs where it's at now, is huge. This isn't a situation where they bought a perfect company. They had to do a lot of house cleaning. The same with producing new stuff. You see the journey UDI is on. True development takes time when your not simply forking someone else's work for your needs or a multi billion dollar company able to throw millions at a project

[carealtor]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

Public Response: You haven't done anything but delete SKU's in past 3 or 4 years, 

Well, that's not exactly fair.  They did remove the unused LED holes on the "Insteon Remote Control On/Off Switch". ?

[Teken]

Well, that's not exactly fair.  They did remove the unused LED holes on the "Insteon Remote Control On/Off Switch". 

Anyone who has been around long enough will recall the Icon line had a single LED indicator. The fact it took them ten plus years to reuse the same old idea and spin it as knew is telling!

[Teken]

You don't have to be moved by my argument but that doesn't decrease the validity of it. If it mattered to the degree you say it does, it would be used in that manner. Consumers would flock to those that do issue updates. Reality tells a different story. People still use zwave and buy products from companies that haven't utilized that ability. 
I'm not saying ota is irrelevant, only that it's overrated and not as important to people as it seems. If you like catchy buzzwords then yes it matters greatly. The same thing with encryption. Zwave has it but how many people use it? They'll try it, see the speed and remove it. All in all, those are things that matter to power users and companies know this. The lack of updates simply proves the general public doesn't care and they know that as well so they ignore it. 
Encryption is a great on paper but in real life, sucks for lighting. If my stuff is going out on the internet like a wifi switch then yes I want encryption. But if you have to walk up to my house, stand outside to hack my lights only turn them off and on then I'll pass. Speed is more important. 
I'm not saying instoen shouldn't do anything because of hue. You're harping on i stein not doing stuff but give zwave a pass for not doing the same. I'd shut up if you had the same arguments against zwave that you do for insteon. You rail on a single company for not doing A-Z but give a consortium a pass for not doing the same. Looking at the market, if I were to produce something, bulbs is the last thing I'd produce. Outside of a couple of companies, it's a race to the bottom. 
Your argument is from the outside in without any information about the inside. Its like all these people trying to tell the President what he should do when they've never attending a briefing in their life. I know I'm not privy to a lot but i do know alot about the inside happenings. Knowing where the company was vs where it's at now, is huge. This isn't a situation where they bought a perfect company. They had to do a lot of house cleaning. The same with producing new stuff. You see the journey UDI is on. True development takes time when your not simply forking someone else's work for your needs or a multi billion dollar company able to throw millions at a project

With a high level of certainty I would have fired anyone involved with how this company is operated. I don’t know why you feel or believe there’s no hate for Z-Wave / ZigBee by me?!?!

It’s not like you see me using or rocking either protocols!

Having installed almost every major brand of both I don’t hold either to a high level which has been stated by me no less than two times in this thread!

Again, this entire thread is about Smartlabs / Insteon and thus the same focus on the same.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, Teken said:

With a high level of certainty I would have fired anyone involved with how this company is operated. I don’t know why you feel or believe there’s no hate for Z-Wave / ZigBee by me?!?!

It’s not like you see me using or rocking either protocols!

Having installed almost every major brand of both I don’t hold either to a high level which has been stated by me no less than two times in this thread!

Again, this entire thread is about Smartlabs / Insteon and thus the same focus on the same.

I'm not talking about what you use. I'm talking about what you speak on

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, Teken said:

Anyone who has been around long enough will recall the Icon line had a single LED indicator. The fact it took them ten plus years to reuse the same old idea and spin it as knew is telling!

You mean the same way everything we do now has gone backwards. (outside of tech)

[Teken]

You mean the same way everything we do now has gone backwards. (outside of tech)

Well if the rat tail, mullet, pin jeans, and tide died harem pants come back!

[lilyoyo1]

26 minutes ago, Teken said:

Well if the rat tail, mullet, pin jeans, and tide died harem pants come back!

Give it time

[Goose66]

9 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

a) Rob has a vision and b) the vision does not include third parties, and c) that vision is the complete opposite of UD's vision.

Yikes! Well it's far too late for me to convert to ZWave. I guess as my last Serial PLM dies I'll just have to go back to manual switching - if I could just win that lottery!