DAlter01 Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) Well, the cat is out of the bag. Smartlabs has finally released their NextGen product cobranded with Nokia. They do say some Insteon devices will work with the new hardware, though not a first launch. I guess we now know where their focus has been. Below should be a link to an article/release. But, if it doesn't work, just search Insteon and Nokia and a bunch of articles on the lauch will pull up. Nokia Teams with Smartlabs to Launch Nokia Smart Lighting - CE Pro So, is Insteon dead, my opinion, not yet. They will milk it for years to come as long as it is profitable. But, I doubt they spend another dime of R&D or updates on that brand. The end is coming, but not here yet. Now we know why Rob and company have been so quiet. And, we know where all the chips have been going. They have been diverted to building their new Nokia line of hardward. Edited July 21, 2021 by DAlter01
auger66 Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) Maybe Nokia won't be so third-party adverse Edited July 21, 2021 by auger66
DAlter01 Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, auger66 said: Maybe Nokia won't be so third-party adverse My take: Nokia isn't driving the buss on this. They are putting out their good name in order to make the product appeal to the masses as this new product is designed to be a simple consumer oriented line. And, for that, they get a piece of the action. Nokia will be making few, very few, decisions. This is just my opinion but I've been around the block a few times and believe that is how a structure like this is likely configured.
DAlter01 Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 I was encouraged to see in the paddle switch specs that the product could have its software/firmware updated. Maybe the new line has some security features, etc. No info in the press releases thus far on the above topics. Details are scant.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, DAlter01 said: Well, the cat is out of the bag. Smartlabs has finally released their NextGen product cobranded with Nokia. They do say some Insteon devices will work with the new hardware, though not a first launch. I guess we now know where their focus has been. Below should be a link to an article/release. But, if it doesn't work, just search Insteon and Nokia and a bunch of articles on the lauch will pull up. Nokia Teams with Smartlabs to Launch Nokia Smart Lighting - CE Pro So, is Insteon dead, my opinion, not yet. They will milk it for years to come as long as it is profitable. But, I doubt they spend another dime of R&D or updates on that brand. The end is coming, but not here yet. Now we know why Rob and company have been so quiet. And, we know where all the chips have been going. They have been diverted to building their new Nokia line of hardward. Its insteon regardless of name. I see it being more of a bridge to their future vs the death of the old line.
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I see it being more of a bridge to their future vs the death of the old line. I see it that way also. I do, however, expect them to put all their effort towards the new line given they have largely ignored the Insteon brand of the technology for a number of years. I think their silence towards the Insteon brand shows their focus and direction. The Insteon line may stay on the shelf for those that want to buy it but I don't expect any new products or updates coming. If the new line of equipment proves to be backward compatible with the core insteon products such as dimmers, motions, and keypads, then it may prove to be a good sequence for the current customer base. I'm not sure if there is a path for Smartlabs, but many companies attempt to force an existing customer base into an update/upgrade with new tech incrementally for obvious reasons. I suspect the C-Suite at Smartlabs has thought long on hard on how to do this to all of us. There may or may not be such a path for them. The next 6-12 months should be interesting. Edited July 22, 2021 by DAlter01
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 38 minutes ago, DAlter01 said: I see it that way also. I do, however, expect them to put all their effort towards the new line given they have largely ignored the Insteon brand of the technology for a number of years. I think their silence towards the Insteon brand shows their focus and direction. The Insteon line may stay on the shelf for those that want to buy it but I don't expect any new products or updates coming. If the new line of equipment proves to be backward compatible with the core insteon products such as dimmers, motions, and keypads, then it may prove to be a good sequence for the current customer base. I'm not sure if there is a path for Smartlabs, but many companies attempt to force an existing customer base into an update/upgrade with new tech incrementally for obvious reasons. I suspect the C-Suite at Smartlabs has thought long on hard on how to do this to all of us. There may or may not be such a path for them. The next 6-12 months should be interesting. They have the path they want to take. Its akin to anyone who buys something- they want to put their own stamp on it. This is why I say the new line is a bridge tot he future. The insteon code is still the same. While their focus is on the new line, they are aware old customers will want to use the new stuff as well. This is where existing current popular offerings come into play (I'm assuming). Get existing lighting working with the new app which gives a person the chance to upgrade their lighting to the new line as their budget sees fit. Judging by the difference between the old and new, it's definitely worth the upgrade. Hell, if they open things up to where 3rd party can support it, I'd be willing to upgrade to them vs C4 like i plan to for now
upstatemike Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 The Nokia switches look like direct competition for the same demographic that Caseta is marketed to. I expect these products to be sold through Best Buy, Home Depot, etc. I do not see them trying to convert the existing Insteon user base or compete with Z-Wave or any other technology geared to having an automation controller. I do not expect there will ever be an API for third parties to utilize. I expect Insteon to continue in a bare bones state focusing on servicing the existing user base with expansion and replacement parts as long as the volume is sufficient and then they will just pull the plug on it. Let me know if I missed something in the announcement that would indicate a better outcome than this.
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: They have the path they want to take. Its akin to anyone who buys something- they want to put their own stamp on it. This is why I say the new line is a bridge tot he future. The insteon code is still the same. While their focus is on the new line, they are aware old customers will want to use the new stuff as well. This is where existing current popular offerings come into play (I'm assuming). Get existing lighting working with the new app which gives a person the chance to upgrade their lighting to the new line as their budget sees fit. Judging by the difference between the old and new, it's definitely worth the upgrade. Hell, if they open things up to where 3rd party can support it, I'd be willing to upgrade to them vs C4 like i plan to for now Us current heavy users have lots of hopes they will keep the Insteon brand in a healthy operating condition to service our needs going forward. While I expect they will do that, there are no guarantees. And, the new tech may be conceived as able to interface with Insteon, that may prove to be a challenge. We all have seen companies make decisions that are hard to figure out. I too hope this works out well, but, as I mentioned, the next 6-12 months should be interesting as some of the unknowns become known.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 1 minute ago, DAlter01 said: Us current heavy users have lots of hopes they will keep the Insteon brand in a healthy operating condition to service our needs going forward. While I expect they will do that, there are no guarantees. And, the new tech may be conceived as able to interface with Insteon, that may prove to be a challenge. We all have seen companies make decisions that are hard to figure out. I too hope this works out well, but, as I mentioned, the next 6-12 months should be interesting as some of the unknowns become known. The underlying insteon code is still the same. They can be manually linked to older devices which means they can be linked via software as well (once software supports the new devices). They can continue with both lines. One for existing users and the other for newer users. In time, I do feel the old line will disappear as the new line matures...I hope it does to be honest. There's a huge difference between lines and I don't see the point in continuing with the old forever. Once the new line matures, a few years grace period would suffice for main devices. Accessory devices such as motion sensors and plug in modules could be moved over immediately
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, upstatemike said: The Nokia switches look like direct competition for the same demographic that Caseta is marketed to. I expect these products to be sold through Best Buy, Home Depot, etc. I do not see them trying to convert the existing Insteon user base or compete with Z-Wave or any other technology geared to having an automation controller. I do not expect there will ever be an API for third parties to utilize. I expect Insteon to continue in a bare bones state focusing on servicing the existing user base with expansion and replacement parts as long as the volume is sufficient and then they will just pull the plug on it. Let me know if I missed something in the announcement that would indicate a better outcome than this. Yep, that is my take. Though, if Smartlabs make the two tech's able to work together, they may find themselves with more exposure and some people will want more customizable devices/features, and then there could be more demand for the tried and true Insteon making Smartlabs motivated to spend time/money on it and bring it back from the bottom shelf to the middle shelf.... Nah, nevermind, that isn't going to happen. I suspect it will go the way of X10 with a slow decline until one has to ask "Can you still buy that stuff anymore?"
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: The underlying insteon code is still the same. They can be manually linked to older devices which means they can be linked via software as well (once software supports the new devices). They can continue with both lines. One for existing users and the other for newer users. In time, I do feel the old line will disappear as the new line matures...I hope it does to be honest. There's a huge difference between lines and I don't see the point in continuing with the old forever. Once the new line matures, a few years grace period would suffice for main devices. Accessory devices such as motion sensors and plug in modules could be moved over immediately Yes, looking forward to moving over my 145 devices, sounds cheap and fun...... And, in a few years you state, that's not generous for products that should function for 10-15 years. For some reason, I'm not looking to tear apart my system that is working perfectly and that I've got lots of money and my precious time invested in setting up. My situation doesn't mean anything to the C-suite at Smartlabs but it does to me. I don't care about what is right for Smartlabs and they don't care about what is right for me. But, my wants are for my system to be operable and fixable for 10+ years.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, DAlter01 said: Yes, looking forward to moving over my 145 devices, sounds cheap and fun...... And, in a few years you state, that's not generous for products that should function for 10-15 years. For some reason, I'm not looking to tear apart my system that is working perfectly and that I've got lots of money and my precious time invested in setting up. My situation doesn't mean anything to the C-suite at Smartlabs but it does to me. I don't care about what is right for Smartlabs and they don't care about what is right for me. But, my wants are for my system to be operable and fixable for 10+ years. I'm just speculating on things not speaking as what is or will be. How ironic people complain about them not doing something new but then have a problem with the new because they want things to stay the same. Even if they did stop selling the old line, as long as they are made compatible what's the problem? Your devices do not instantly stop working just because they no longer sell them so I'm not understanding your argument. Them ending a line for something newer happens in all facets of life. Even then, no one is saying you need to tear your stuff out and replace No company guarantees the same product will look the same or be made the same for the rest of anyone's life. This is why cellphones, cars, laptops, tablets, TV's, etc. constantly change and refresh their looks. Many people remodel (or buy new) their homes at least once in 10-15 years time....but insteon shouldn't move forward with their design and leave the old behind? That doesn't make sense. Edited July 22, 2021 by lilyoyo1
carealtor Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 What concerns me about all this is that Michel has stated as fact that he has no intention of supporting new Insteon devices unless Smartlabs cooperates. I fear this all falls into that category. 2
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I'm just speculating on things not speaking as what is or will be. How ironic people complain about them not doing something new but then have a problem with the new because they want things to stay the same. Even if they did stop selling the old line, as long as there was compatible what's the problem? Your devices do not instantly stop working just because they no longer sell them so I'm not understanding your argument. Them ending a line for something newer happens in all facets of life. No company guarantees the same product will look the same or be made the same for the rest of anyone's life. This is why cellphones, cars, laptops, tablets, TV's, etc. constantly change and refresh their looks. Many people remodel (or buy new) their homes at least once in 10-15 years time....but insteon shouldn't move forward with their design and leave the old behind? That doesn't make sense. I wasn't complaining or saying there IS a problem. This is a forum where we get to talk and banter, and that is what I'm doing. I could just sit here and read posts but no, I prefer to talk, speculate, read other posts such as yours and possibly learn from you and others or see another perspective, modify my views, etc. Hopefully, these posts help you see other's perspectives also, and view it the same or similarly I didn't put in a large Insteon system and spend oodles of time creating a lot of slick programming, that I'm rather proud of, only to have it become an orphan system within a year. If the C-suite at Insteon decides to orphan it that is not a positive step for something I spent a lot of time and effort to build. I don't think they intend to do that....yet. But, its pretty clear that after the announcement today that the focus of the company is not Insteon. So, when push comes to shove, if difficulties emerge, and a tough decision needs to be made, Insteon gets the axe. I think that is pretty obvious. Do my devices instantly stop working, no. But, that isn't the only point. Having a dead system where new parts are not availabe, IF that happens within a few years, isn't a positive development. With regards to lifespan, in certain catagories of houses having a slick, functioning, and supported lighting/logic system is expected. Having an orphan system means the next buyer will have to spend $150k+ for a Lutron or other system (parts, install and programming). Yes, of course I expect the system to be orphaned someday. I hope that it doesn't occur soon. I'd like the lifespan to be 10 years. Why is that hard to understand? Why would I have spent all the time and money on my equipement and programming if I didn't expect it to have value and last for 10+ years. Maybe some people dont' care, but that isn't me or people like me. That investment of time and money should have a lifespan, or that is the hope. When it doesn't happen, it is a disappointment. This isn't a cell phone or a TV which are standalone devcies. The system is an integral part of the function and value of the structure. Edited July 22, 2021 by DAlter01
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 14 minutes ago, carealtor said: What concerns me about all this is that Michel has stated as fact that he has no intention of supporting new Insteon devices unless Smartlabs cooperates. I fear this all falls into that category. Yep, I was reflecting back on that. He was pretty clear that UDI and Smartlabs are going down different paths. And, if I read his statements correctly, he wasn't planning on reverse engineering on how to get UDI equipment working with new Insteon gear(again). I can't say as I blame him. If UDI doesn't need Insteon why not pursue easier paths to success. Hopefully, Smartlabs was just trying to keep things quiet until they were ready to launch and now they will open up their tech. But, from what Michel was saying, it sounded like Rob wasn't inclined to have an open system that integrated.
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 46 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I'm just speculating on things not speaking as what is or will be. How ironic people complain about them not doing something new but then have a problem with the new because they want things to stay the same. Even if they did stop selling the old line, as long as they are made compatible what's the problem? Your devices do not instantly stop working just because they no longer sell them so I'm not understanding your argument. Them ending a line for something newer happens in all facets of life. Even then, no one is saying you need to tear your stuff out and replace No company guarantees the same product will look the same or be made the same for the rest of anyone's life. This is why cellphones, cars, laptops, tablets, TV's, etc. constantly change and refresh their looks. Many people remodel (or buy new) their homes at least once in 10-15 years time....but insteon shouldn't move forward with their design and leave the old behind? That doesn't make sense. All good points though. Of course Smartlabs should not stay still. They have to improve or the company dies. I was hoping incremental improvement that would support the old tech. That may be what they are doing or intend to do. Or, it could be a signficant upgrade (it sounds somewhat signficant), and old tech may not mesh well. Like I suggested, the next 6-12 months should be interesting. Hopefully my Insteon investment doesn't get orphaned soon. It will, of course, someday. But, hopefully not within a couple years. If it does, life moves one. The system does everything I want it to do as of right now. Someday I'll probalby feel like it was unbelievably poor tech. I get that it is old, but the marriage of Insteon and the ISY works unbelievably well, even if it has been around a while.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, DAlter01 said: All good points though. Of course Smartlabs should not stay still. They have to improve or the company dies. I was hoping incremental improvement that would support the old tech. That may be what they are doing or intend to do. Or, it could be a signficant upgrade (it sounds somewhat signficant), and old tech may not mesh well. Like I suggested, the next 6-12 months should be interesting. Hopefully my Insteon investment doesn't get orphaned soon. It will, of course, someday. But, hopefully not within a couple years. If it does, life moves one. The system does everything I want it to do as of right now. Someday I'll probalby feel like it was unbelievably poor tech. I get that it is old, but the marriage of Insteon and the ISY works unbelievably well, even if it has been around a while. I could be wrong. Just can't imagine 2 separate lines doing the same thing..... especially considering the close price point. For now, I can imagine they do want to keep the new line separate to build its own separate customer base. With the chip shortage, I'm sure that also allows them to somewhat control sales as it limits the Customer base. Right now, the more hands it gets in the better. A new user may buy 2-5 products to try things out while a power user may buy 20-50. Yes they sell more at once, but the product doesn't get in more houses this way. Once the line matures and availability grows, I could see opening it to power users. It definitely has to mature first before taking on power users. Judging by the comments here and homeseer forum, we are a demanding bunch. Can't see people being happy long term while there are limits to the line. Edited July 22, 2021 by lilyoyo1
upstatemike Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: I could be wrong. Just can't imagine 2 separate lines doing the same thing..... especially considering the close price point. For now, I can imagine they do want to keep the new line separate to build its own separate customer base. With the chip shortage, I'm sure that also allows them to somewhat control sales as it limits the Customer base. Right now, the more hands it gets in the better. A new user may buy 2-5 products to try things out while a power user may buy 20-50. Yes they sell more at once, but the product doesn't get in more houses this way. Once the line matures and availability grows, I could see opening it to power users. It definitely has to mature first before taking on power users. Judging by the comments here and homeseer forum, we are a demanding bunch. Can't see people being happy long term while there are limits to the line. I just don't see Nokia having any interest in power users. Limited product line packaged to sell in big retail outlets targeting folks who want an easy path to install a small handful of automated switches. If there is something more there I'm not seeing it.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, upstatemike said: I just don't see Nokia having any interest in power users. Limited product line packaged to sell in big retail outlets targeting folks who want an easy path to install a small handful of automated switches. If there is something more there I'm not seeing it. I agree. However, I'm hard pressed to see them talking about scalability without realizing those expanding it in that manner will not want more from their system long term. Those are the ones who become power users.
upstatemike Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: I agree. However, I'm hard pressed to see them talking about scalability without realizing those expanding it in that manner will not want more from their system long term. Those are the ones who become power users. Scalability claims are just for marketing. They know in reality most customers will make an initial purchase and never do anything further but the idea that they could expand their system makes potential customers more confident that this product is a sound purchase decision. It's like advertising that the Insteon protocol supports millions of addresses without mentioning the link table limits in PLMs and Hubs. I don't know of any HA technology that will hold up to marketing specs for scalability in actual real world implementations. I don't think you can interpret expandability marketing specs to indicate an intention to support (or care about) power users. Just my cynical opinion.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 16 minutes ago, upstatemike said: Scalability claims are just for marketing. They know in reality most customers will make an initial purchase and never do anything further but the idea that they could expand their system makes potential customers more confident that this product is a sound purchase decision. It's like advertising that the Insteon protocol supports millions of addresses without mentioning the link table limits in PLMs and Hubs. I don't know of any HA technology that will hold up to marketing specs for scalability in actual real world implementations. I don't think you can interpret expandability marketing specs to indicate an intention to support (or care about) power users. Just my cynical opinion. In a marketing sense (and short term), I do agree with you. In a financial sense, long term they need to take it to scale. I'm quite sure they realize that
Techman Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) This appears to be the direction that Smartlabs is currently taking. See attached files and URL. The question is whether they'll continue to support the legacy Insteon product line Vantaa.pdf Vantaa Bridge.pdf https://www.nokia.com/shop/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-bridge/ https://www.cepro.com/control/lighting/nokia-teams-with-smartlabs-to-launch-nokia-smart-lighting/ Edited July 22, 2021 by Techman updated
DAlter01 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, Techman said: This appears to be the direction that Smartlabs is currently taking. See attached files and URL. The question is whether they'll continue to support the legacy Insteon product line Vantaa.pdf 171.59 kB · 1 download Vantaa Bridge.pdf 119.74 kB · 1 download https://www.nokia.com/shop/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-bridge/ https://www.cepro.com/control/lighting/nokia-teams-with-smartlabs-to-launch-nokia-smart-lighting/ I don't see any reference to the Bridge having a serial port and I somehwat doubt it does. Hopefully they have not abondoned the serial modem in their future plans, though it seems to be looking that way. Those used serial PLM's are going to skyrocket in value, I suspect.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, DAlter01 said: I don't see any reference to the Bridge having a serial port and I somehwat doubt it does. Hopefully they have not abondoned the serial modem in their future plans, though it seems to be looking that way. Those used serial PLM's are going to skyrocket in value, I suspect. They have not abandoned the PLM. The bridge only has an Ethernet port
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