Smarthome killed the Leak Sensor!

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Goose66 said:

I think the arguments of legal liability for Smarthome show a lack of knowledge of consumer products law. More likely that they engineered the product to act appropriately to its task, in there opinion.

Why not always default to user configurable?!?  

The problem with the law isn't always about whether you win or not. Its still about needing to go to court in the first place.

After all- this is the country where we have to tell people their coffee is hot and that a curling iron can burn you.

[sorka]

Here's another issue. With Rev 2.0, it keeps sending on events WHILE water is detected. The 3.0 ones don't so if you bring the 3.0 sensor out of wireless range, and then trigger it on, and then bring it back into range, the leak is never detected. So in the normal case should the the message fail due to interference or because your ISY is down or you're rebooting it, then the detected leak is lost.

[sorka]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The problem with the law isn't always about whether you win or not. Its still about needing to go to court in the first place.

After all- this is the country where we have to tell people their coffee is hot and that a curling iron can burn you.

 

I strongly suspect that some customers just blindly linked some i/o lincs as responders to the rev 2.0 sensors and so that when a real leak happened and a valve was shut off that when it dried out, the valve turned back on continuing the water damage.

 

In their attempt to avoid liability for this situation, they made a change that created yet more situations where water damage can now happen. 1) Either because a user familiar with 2.0 sensors bought 2.1 or greater rev sensors and didn't know they have to make sure the state is OFF when installed, or 2) if the signal fails due to interference or whatever, the one time leak signal is missed and never resent.

Edited December 3, 2020 by sorka

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, sorka said:

 

I strongly suspect that some customers just blindly linked some i/o lincs as responders to the rev 2.0 sensors and so that when a real leak happened and a valve was shut off that when it dried out, the valve turned back on continuing the water damage.

 

In their attempt to avoid liability for this situation, they made a change that created yet more situations where water damage can now happen. 1) Either because a user familiar with 2.0 sensors bought 2.1 or greater rev sensors and didn't know they have to make sure the state is OFF when installed, or 2) if the signal fails due to interference or whatever, the one time leak signal is missed and never resent.

 

I've been blessed to have met some of the people that work there so I've been privy to more information than the general public. I won't speak on their private matters, but I've seen enough emails and heard enough chats with lawsuit threats from customers due to their customers own mistakes. I'm quite certain other companies go through this as well. While you and some others may not take things to that level, there are many out there that will. From a company standpoint, is a 35 dollar sensor worth the lawyer fees to get something thrown out? 

This change was made over 3 years ago so it's nothing new. Insteon chose to make it this way for their own specific reasons. There are other options out there if a person doesn't like how it works.  

[palayman]

4 hours ago, larryllix said:

The whole point of a leak detector is to get you to look at the water damage location and then you are on site anyway.

Oops, forgot the biggest reason for me.  In a home I don't have any more I had a leak sensor in a sump. I wanted to know if the level got high enough to trip the sump pump.  When it reset itself I could verify the sump pump had done its job.  This not possible if you need to reset it yourself.

I have switched to the wireless tag moisture sensors, but they are not optimal as they have non-replaceable batteries that don't last that long.

[larryllix]

21 minutes ago, palayman said:

Oops, forgot the biggest reason for me.  In a home I don't have any more I had a leak sensor in a sump. I wanted to know if the level got high enough to trip the sump pump.  When it reset itself I could verify the sump pump had done its job.  This not possible if you need to reset it yourself.

I have switched to the wireless tag moisture sensors, but they are not optimal as they have non-replaceable batteries that don't last that long.

Yeah, wrong device for that application. If the water got that high your pump couldn't fix it in time (it was already failing) and you would have had to toss the LD in the bin, and buy a new one each time.

The Insteon LD need extendable legs on the sensor tips so the electronics weren't ruined with bigger leaks.  IIRC @Tekenfabricated one like that with long bolts.

Edited December 3, 2020 by larryllix

[sorka]

I like how the 2.0 sensors work. I like the battery life so it seems for me the best option is to put a persistent search on ebay and just watch for the version I need. 

But I'm also open to other options out there. What are these tag sensors and how long do the batteries last, how much are they, and how do they integrate with the ISY?

[sorka]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

Yeah, wrong device for that application. If the water got that high your pump couldn't fix it in time (it was already failing) and you would have had to toss the LD in the bin, and buy a new one each time.

 

I have one for a similar use where I've extended contacts several feet below keeping the unit well above any danger of getting wet.

[sorka]

Does anyone know if this change happened every version greater than 2.0 which is what Insteon told me? I have a version 2.6 that has the same issue that was out in the garage that was also left in the on state for probably several years. 

 

I need to get rid of the existing 3 sensors I already had that have this issue as they cannot be relied upon since they only send their signal once and if that signal misses due to interference or an ISY reboot, then they will miss the leak unlike the 2.0 sensors that keep sending the signal while wet.

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, sorka said:

I like how the 2.0 sensors work. I like the battery life so it seems for me the best option is to put a persistent search on ebay and just watch for the version I need. 

But I'm also open to other options out there. What are these tag sensors and how long do the batteries last, how much are they, and how do they integrate with the ISY?

I posted a thread about two horrible new design LDs, I got a year or so ago. Complete junk. They changed a component and didn't refabricate the lid so it wouldn't actually close. Then when the id was opened, if it opened from one the end, the other end's catch would pry on a coil and break it. I kept one unit as I was desperate for a replacement unit, but the nice folks at aartech.ca took the broken one back.

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, sorka said:

Does anyone know if this change happened every version greater than 2.0 which is what Insteon told me? I have a version 2.6 that has the same issue that was out in the garage that was also left in the on state for probably several years. 

 

I need to get rid of the existing 3 sensors I already had that have this issue as they cannot be relied upon since they only send their signal once and if that signal misses due to interference or an ISY reboot, then they will miss the leak unlike the 2.0 sensors that keep sending the signal while wet.

It's on every version released the last 3-4 years. 

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, sorka said:

I like how the 2.0 sensors work. I like the battery life so it seems for me the best option is to put a persistent search on ebay and just watch for the version I need. 

But I'm also open to other options out there. What are these tag sensors and how long do the batteries last, how much are they, and how do they integrate with the ISY?

If you have zwave, i like the fibaro units. They have a built in audio alarm, tamper (if someone moves it accidentally), floats, and will stop once dry

[larryllix]

Rev 2.0 LD with good component placement

 

 

Rev 2.6 LD with defective component placement design.  Great engineering from the new Insteon! (sarc)
 Note they gave up on procuring OEM batteries also.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by larryllix

[sorka]

50 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It's on every version released the last 3-4 years. 

Trying to figure out exactly what version so I know what to buy. There's a 2.2 on ebay right now. Also found some sealed ver 1.05 sensors which are older than any I have. Does anyone know if these are equivalent to the 2.0 sensors?

Edited December 3, 2020 by sorka

[sorka]

There's a sealed Rev 2.1 on ebay.

[Whitehambone]

Not everyone uses or wants to use the product as intended. So I would like the auto or switch reset to be a user-programmable option.  Why not give us both possibilities?  For instance, I used one of the older leak sensors for detecting when a sump pump could not keep up with the rain load.  I mounted the sensor on a piece of wood and soldered remote sensing wires to the sensor's circuit board (twin-lead wire).  I suspended the wire about 1/2 inch above the floor.  If the sump pump could not keep up, the leak sensor would start another pump and send an alert.  When the water fell under the remote contacts, the leak sensor would reset automatically, and after a programmed time, the pump would turn off.  I could remotely watch the situation on a camera and take additional action if necessary.  It worked great, but it would not work with the new style sensor.  Of course, I used this setup until I could correctly repair the problem, which required a lot of digging.  Not fun.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, sorka said:

Trying to figure out exactly what version so I know what to buy. There's a 2.2 on ebay right now. Also found some sealed ver 1.05 sensors which are older than any I have. Does anyone know if these are equivalent to the 2.0 sensors?

I can't help with exact version it was changed in. If I had to take a chance, I'd go with the 1.05

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, Whitehambone said:

Not everyone uses or wants to use the product as intended. So I would like the auto or switch reset to be a user-programmable option.  Why not give us both possibilities?  For instance, I used one of the older leak sensors for detecting when a sump pump could not keep up with the rain load.  I mounted the sensor on a piece of wood and soldered remote sensing wires to the sensor's circuit board (twin-lead wire).  I suspended the wire about 1/2 inch above the floor.  If the sump pump could not keep up, the leak sensor would start another pump and send an alert.  When the water fell under the remote contacts, the leak sensor would reset automatically, and after a programmed time, the pump would turn off.  I could remotely watch the situation on a camera and take additional action if necessary.  It worked great, but it would not work with the new style sensor.  Of course, I used this setup until I could correctly repair the problem, which required a lot of digging.  Not fun.

There lies the issue. Companies make things for the way THEY intend for it to be used knowing they need to protect themselves from end users using it in other ways. Some are more open than others about this. However, the best way to handle those situations is to go with whomever best fills what you are looking for. 

[sorka]

It's really unfortunate that they just didn't provide a new state. So in addition to WET, DRY, HEARTBEAT, they could have added WET-LATCHED or something like that.