Insteon Electrician

[aguden]

I have some intermittent issues with some of my Insteon devices and was looking for an electrician who is familiar with Insteon devices.  I am in Wellington Florida )10 miles west of West Palm Beach).  The Smarthome website lists 4 in Florida but 2 are out of business and the other 2 are a bit far to travel.  Anyone have know anyone? Or is there a resource on this forum/site that list techs? Should I be posting this in a different place?

[lilyoyo1]

37 minutes ago, aguden said:

I have some intermittent issues with some of my Insteon devices and was looking for an electrician who is familiar with Insteon devices.  I am in Wellington Florida )10 miles west of West Palm Beach).  The Smarthome website lists 4 in Florida but 2 are out of business and the other 2 are a bit far to travel.  Anyone have know anyone? Or is there a resource on this forum/site that list techs? Should I be posting this in a different place?

You could always be specific with your setup and preferentially receive help on here.

[aguden]

28 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You could always be specific with your setup and preferentially receive help on here.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a main panel and 3 subpanels. The installation covers my home, a free standing garage and a barn. I don’t have and devices on the main panel but I think the other 3. All devices are dual band. I have general difficulties with the barn devices. The devices seem to report back status but I can’t control them. I have other switches on the other 2 panels that will turn on one night and not the next. And some that won’t turn off. An electrician with Insteon training would be great. 

[Brian H]

The modules are probably Dual Band unless extremely old.

So you could try their built in communications tests and see what can access others. Some manuals called it a Beacon Test or Communications Test or four tap test. Especially between devices on different panels.

Is the PLM for the ISY994i on a circuit that also has the computing equipment or an UPS? Both can sometimes absorb Insteon power line commands.

[aguden]

Brian,

I’ll need to check into the tests you recommended. But the UPS clue is right on.  I am sure there is one (and maybe two) UPS on the same circuit as the PLM. Probably the easiest thing to do first is to remove both.  Then watch the devices that have been inconsistent for a few days to see if there is any improvement.  I will work on this and get back in a day or two. Thank you for your help.

 

Al

[Brian H]

I have my UPS on a Filterlinc and my PLM on the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front.

[aguden]

Would it be advisable to have all of my UPSs on FilterLincs?  I have UPSs for each PC and each TV in the house. Are there other appliances that typically need to be filtered? 

[jec6613]

36 minutes ago, aguden said:

Would it be advisable to have all of my UPSs on FilterLincs?  I have UPSs for each PC and each TV in the house. Are there other appliances that typically need to be filtered? 

Yes it would be good.  The higher-end you go, the fewer problems - my big rackmount UPS units don't cause issues, for instance, but my little ones all do.  Also, motor loads (including door openers, washing machines, and refrigeration), and many switching power supplies (PCs, TVs, et cetera) cause all sorts of noise.  Heck, my coffee grinder throws out a lot of noise, I just don't care because it only runs about 30 seconds at a time.

I ended up over time putting in a lot of 20A X10 filters, wired in-line, for circuits which have dedicated loads - for instance, my two reefer circuits, my two server and two AV circuits, my washer circuit, and the like.

[Brian H]

Some TV's, Computer Power supplies, some cell phone chargers to name a few.

Unplugging a suspected electrical device and then seeing if anything improved. Not all electrical devices may cause problems. For me I have two Vizio LED TV's that suck up X10 and Insteon power line commands. They have a nice fat sized capacitor across the power line. To keep their internal noise off of the line. It sucks up the power line commands. I don't have them filtered as a few Access Points {nor replaced with Range Extenders} get the Insteon signals all over the home. My few X10 devices have no issues because I have an XTB-IIR online and it hits the power lines with over a 10 volt X10 signal. It is also one of the few X10 power line repeaters that respects Insteon signals and not corrupting it.

You may also want to see if the ISY994i's Scene Tests can show anything.

If you have not found the excellent ISY WIKI. It is loaded what great tips, videos, the full ISY994i manual and the ISY Cookbook.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

[aguden]

Thank you.  I feel that I can probably trouble shoot this and have ordered 6 of the FilterLinks 1626-10 that will be here next week.  I have checked and my PowerLinc 2413S is plugged into the same receptacle as my UPS.  So when the FilterLincs arrive, my 1st task will be to put the UPS on the FilterLinc and then plug the 2413S into a non-controlled UPS receptacle and maybe the same for the ISY994i.  

I will see if this helps the situation and then will list all of the devices that are still inconsistent and check for UPSs on their circuit.   After I run out of FilterLincs, I can begin to check devices that are plugged in but are not on one of the filtered UPSs.  I suspect the next thing to do will be to turn individual breakers off and do testing on any continuing problem devices.

I wonder if the barn may be a problem with the distance?  But one other thought is that I have fans in each stall and 2 big fans in the aisle.  The stall fans are old and probably noisy.  Probably the best way to check the barn will be to see what is on the circuits with the 2 Insteon switches and then see if I can communicate with them with all other breakers off.  If so, then I can narrow it down.  I assume there are filter devices that can be wired into the panel for any circuit I find that is noisy.

I'm reading the parts of the Wiki that applies.  Thanks so much.  I knew it was there but hadn't thought about it for a few years.

[Brian H]

Do not connect the PLM to any UPS outlet. The UPS should have a power line conditioner on its input. It will filter out the Insteon power line commands as noise. Some here have used an UPS output and used the Insteon RF to get back into the setup.

The unfiltered outlet on the FilterLinc would also work.

[Geddy]

I think an important part might be missing here...

@aguden said in the second post - 

Quote

I have a main panel and 3 subpanels. The installation covers my home, a free standing garage and a barn.

I'd have to ask how far away is the garage and barn from the closest switch that is on that direction?

How is the power run to those facilities? Is your main panel in the house and subs in the house servicing the garage and barn? It could be that your ISY is in the main house and there's no direct powerline getting out to the detached buildings. That's where you have to figure out if you're close enough for the wireless signals to reach, and my experience is the signals fall rapidly having to go through walls.

 

I'm no electrician, but just wanted to be sure others weren't trying to fix a problem that couldn't be fixed if the power going to the other buildings isn't talking with the main house like you're implying. With it being intermittent issues it seems to me that it's just out of reach to be reliable. Or...of course the noise issues, but again...probably because of distance. 

 

[aguden]

Geddy

I think you have hit on an important point about the barn.  The main panel has a breaker for the barn panel.  It also has a breaker for the main house panel and very few other circuits.  The main house panel has a breaker for a panel that covers an addition on the back of the house and the garage.  Very confusing but that’s the way it is.  The ISY994i and the PLM are on a circuit on the main house panel so to get to the barn, the signal has to go to the main house panel then to the main panel the to the barn panel.  I hadn’t thought that through before.
 

I will concentrate on everything except the barn then see what I can do there.  There aren’t any devices that are near close enough to the barn to help. 

[aguden]

Great progress.  All devices in the house and garage work as expected and I have updated my programs to correctly control all of them.  Thank you all for your suggestions.  

My only area of problems now is the devices in the barn which is a separate building a bit farther away than the garage.  The 3 devices in the barn appear normal at times. some will have a red exclamation mark and at other times will have the green icon that indicates that I should update the device.  They can all have the red exclamation mark, or just one.  I can't seem to figure any pattern.  2 of the 3 have been on the system for years and I was able to add one a few days ago.  All 3 are on the same breaker - so same phase.  It feels like a weak signal. 

I am planning to start by turning off all breakers to see if I have any better signal.  If not I will review all devices on the breaker. Any other suggestions?  

[palayman]

1 hour ago, aguden said:

The 3 devices in the barn appear normal at times. some will have a red exclamation mark and at other times will have the green icon that indicates that I should update the device. 

Your idea about turning off breakers in the barn is a good one.  Any recent changes to devices in the barn, LED lights, motors, etc. would be suspect. I recently changed out a Halogen flood for an LED one.  I could still turn the light on, but couldn't turn it off.  LED ballast made too much noise.

 

[aguden]

That’s interesting. I replaced 10 four foot fluorescent fixtures with led bulbs and removed the fluorescent ballasts. So the leds have some sort of ballast built in that could have noise? That’s going to be a problem since they are all wired into a few circuits. Are there filters similar to the FilterLinc available for wiring in to isolate the led fixtures?
 

I tested the other phase yesterday and it works fine. That is until later in the evening when the 7.5 HP irrigation pump came on and then I couldn’t reach the test device. This morning with the pump off I can reach that device again. So I’m at least planning to pur in a pair of range extenders to link the 2 phases.

[Brian H]

There is an XPF. 20 Amp wire in X10 filter that should also do Insteon. It would filter everything on the circuit it is powering. It is also quite large as it has to have components rated for 20 Amp.

[aguden]

I have added the FilterLincs to every place there seems to be any possibility of a problem and it has made the house and garage stable.

 

Barn has 4 connected devices ( and one that isn't):

1. Barn Aisle - has green icon that indicates you should update device I think. When you do, you get a message that it cannot communicate and the icon chances to a red exclamation point. - On breaker 14 on 1st phase.
2. Barn Apartment: Ok (On 2nd phase)
3. Barn Attic - On breaker 20 on 1st phase.
4. Barn Exterior - has green icon that indicates you should update device I think. When you do, you get a message that it cannot communicate and the icon chances to a red exclamation point. - On breaker 14 on 1st phase.
5. Barn Exterior Floods. - On breaker 14 on 1st phase. Not connected right now.

 

I did go through the breakers and turned all off except for 14 and there was no change to the response to the devices on breaker 14.

Attached to the devices on breaker 14 are Barn Aisle (6 LED 4 foot flourescents with the old ballasts removed). Barn Exterion (with 2 LED exterior fixtures). Other items on the circuit are more of the 4 foot LEDs and 2 roll up hurricane doors. These are rarely turned on.

 

Is my next step to install either XPF or XPNR filters to see if that fixes the problem. I think I would try the Barn Aisle and isolate the 4 foot LED Florescent lights (or isolate the switch?). I think I would want to install the filter right at the switch but I am not clear on exactly where I would do it.

[MrBill]

56 minutes ago, aguden said:

Barn Apartment: Ok (On 2nd phase)

This is a good thing.  Is it a dual band device?  is there another dual band device nearby on the other phase?

What device is each item in your list?  more specifically, what is dual band and what is powerline only?

[aguden]

All devices are dual band.  All switches are 2477S.  I have a dual band on/off module (2635-222) on the other phase and it is working fine.  I also put a range extender on each phase and they are indicating all is good.  I tested with the 4 taps and it indicates good. So it looks like only the circuit on breaker 14 is the problem.  The devices that are not working are all on that breaker.  There is nothing plugged into that circuit so that's why I was thinking of using the XPF or XPNR filters.  I'm just unsure of where to wire one or more in.

[Screw Loose Dan]

At this point, you believe the LED lights are causing noise, correct?  Can you temporarily disconnect the lights from the load side of the 2477S and verify that eliminates your communication issue?

As for wiring, take a look at this PDF.

As the document states, you want it as close to the offending device (LEDs) as possible.  In an ideal world, you would actually put one filter in each LED...but in reality you might find putting one in at the beginning of the string (presuming they are strung in daisy chain) may work just fine.  Which obviously would save a ton of money.

[aguden]

LEDs are the probable offenders. I have 3 Insteon switches and each one controls different sets of LED lights. And on the same breaker there are 6 additional LED 4 ft fixtures each of which are individually switched. One other thing that argues for the LEDs being the problem is that for 2 of the switches, I can typically turn the lights on but not off.

So I think my best way to prove this out is to turn those 6 non-Insteon switched lights off, then disconnect the load (red) at the 3 Insteon switches. The fixtures are different on each of the switches so I can add back until I get a problem.  If I get good control of the Insteon switches, I’ll need to add the filters as needed at the switches.  Does that sound right?  
 

[Screw Loose Dan]

It sounds like you are on the right track to prove the LED lights are causing the issue.

Can you see the wiring?  It's hard to tell you best way to wire the filters without knowing how everything is wired there.  But, yes, at least isolating the switches from the load (LEDs) would probably be a good start.  

[aguden]

Thank you for all of the great advice. I will get to disconnecting the lights in a few days.  I need some time to celebrate.  I got my first Covis19 vaccine shot this morning.  I'll report back how the disconnecting goes.  All three switches are in surface boxes on the inside barn wall.  And once we see if everything works great without the lights I'll need add some boxes for the XPF filter.  Thanks again for all of the great help.  

[aguden]

I thought I had figured out the offending devices but not so fast.

 

All was ok with the installation except for 2 switches on one breaker (14) in the barn. I have one switch on the same phase in the barn on another breaker (20)that works fine and another switch on the other phase that works fine.

 

So I went out to the barn with my iPad with Alexa (using the ISY skill) and could turn the aisle lights on and off IF the exterior lights were off. If the exterior lights were on, I couldn't turn them back off and couldn't turn the exterior lights off. So I took the 4 LED bulbs out of the exterior fixtures and tested. All worked fine and I could turn the fixtures on and off with no problem. I added 4 incandescent bulbs and I was still fine.

 

So I went back into the house and started the ISY Console and 1 switch had the a red exclamation point next to the Barn Aisle and a Green (not ok) icon next to the Barn Exterior. And the 2 switches don't work from the ISY admin console. The other 2 barn switches are ok.

 

Obviously something is different about how the ISY console and Alexa (with the ISY skill) talks to the switches. I assume they both use the PLM? Any ideas how to resolve this. Do I need to use the Portal to update?

 

PS:  Someone just went into the barn and turned on the Aisle Light and the exclamation pint changed to the Green Icon.  So there is some communication but still a problem.