Future in Insteon

[DAlter01]

To all the power users on this forum, you all helped me figure out how to successfully set up a 200 device Insteon house some years ago through this forum.  I've since sold the house.  My new one has an existing 15 year old Lutron Wireless Homeworks system.  It seems the processor, dimmers, keypads, and repeaters don't like LED or alexa integration and have other issues.   It seems to make the house function correctly in 2020 it needs a new processor, 6 keypads, three repeaters and about 106 dimmers to the tune of about $30k in parts alone, plus programming.   I'm thinking about converting it to Insteon (I do like the Insteon switches better).  But, with Insteon being quiet on their product, I'm concerned I'd be throwing money and time at a technology that is about to be abandoned.  Are any of you seeing signs of life that may lead one to believe there is about to be a second wind for this company and that it has a future?

[oberkc]

Well...I just saw that the PLM is available where it was recently not in stock.  That may be a small sign fo something.

[DAlter01]

Oberkc, that is a low bar, but, yes I suppose it shows the patient has a pulse.  If they do intend to stick around, it sure isn't helping them by being so quiet.  I'm sure I'm not the only person hesitent to buy many, many thousands of dollars on equipment on Insteon because of their current business decisions.  

[lilyoyo1]

Insteon has always been quiet. For better or worse, that's their nature.

If you're worried about your investment like that, I would recommend going with zwave or something else. 

[MrBill]

I have all insteon, no-z-wave... if I had to make the "what to start with" decision over again today I would seriously consider Lutron Caseta and/or Caseta Pro.  I actually kind of dislike the look of caseta switches tho, they also have a limit on number of devices that I would need to evaluate.  There's also Lutron RadioRA I'd have to think about.

I like Insteon a lot but I also am one that believes they don't understand the market they are in, and because of that I worry about longevity.

I don't like z-wave for lighting because you can't group things to operate at the same time.

Those are my thoughts, but I've not researched other options because I have Insteon for literally everything except the garbage disposal.

[DAlter01]

Thanks Mr Bill.  If Lutron, with companion switches, I'd have about 150 devices and that pretty much rules out Caseta.  I'm not sure about the Caseta Pro, that's the first I've heard of a "Pro" line.  RadioRA may also work as it has a higher device number capability.  Although, I think it is limited on the number of repeaters and its a big house.  More research is in my future to figure all of that out.  

I agree with Z-wave.  Too much effort to put in a system to have the lag and popcorn effect for lighting.  I would forever want to figure out how to fix that.  

My prior house was also all Insteon and was pretty happy with it.  I had some Z-wave door locks, a nice Z-wave fan controller, and a Z-wave plug in switch.  They all worked reliably but I made a game of guessing how long it would take for the Z-wave devices to respond to the command.  I didn't mind it with the items they controlled but it would not have been acceptable for lighting.

I just went to the Smarthome site earlier this morning.  Guess how many wall dimmers and receptacles they had available for me to buy...... Zero.  That's right.  The backbone of any system and they don't have any.  Wow.  They had receptacles in white but with this new house I need Light Almond.  I've heard they are thinning out their SKU's but not having switches and receptacles, hmm.... 

If it were my company, when I run out, rather than cause concern in my customer's mind, I would put up a reponse that said (Due to COVID 19 or Due to unusually high demand, we are temporarily running low on this item.  We have orders in production and expect to have new supply within X days/weeks.  We appoligize for this inconvenience but rest assured the company is healthy and we are doing everything we can to restock our inventory during this unusual period")  But, no, they only tell you they are out of stock of this item and many others.  It lets the mind make assumptions.....

 

  

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

27 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Thanks Mr Bill.  If Lutron, with companion switches, I'd have about 150 devices and that pretty much rules out Caseta.  I'm not sure about the Caseta Pro, that's the first I've heard of a "Pro" line.  RadioRA may also work as it has a higher device number capability.  Although, I think it is limited on the number of repeaters and its a big house.  More research is in my future to figure all of that out.  

I agree with Z-wave.  Too much effort to put in a system to have the lag and popcorn effect for lighting.  I would forever want to figure out how to fix that.  

My prior house was also all Insteon and was pretty happy with it.  I had some Z-wave door locks, a nice Z-wave fan controller, and a Z-wave plug in switch.  They all worked reliably but I made a game of guessing how long it would take for the Z-wave devices to respond to the command.  I didn't mind it with the items they controlled but it would not have been acceptable for lighting.

I just went to the Smarthome site earlier this morning.  Guess how many wall dimmers and receptacles they had available for me to buy...... Zero.  That's right.  The backbone of any system and they don't have any.  Wow.  They had receptacles in white but with this new house I need Light Almond.  I've heard they are thinning out their SKU's but not having switches and receptacles, hmm.... 

If it were my company, when I run out, rather than cause concern in my customer's mind, I would put up a reponse that said (Due to COVID 19 or Due to unusually high demand, we are temporarily running low on this item.  We have orders in production and expect to have new supply within X days/weeks.  We appoligize for this inconvenience but rest assured the company is healthy and we are doing everything we can to restock our inventory during this unusual period")  But, no, they only tell you they are out of stock of this item and many others.  It lets the mind make assumptions.....

 

  

 

 

If you want to do it yourself with Lutron, you'll need to take their courses. You'll need the level 2 course due to the amount of devices you'll have and the need for 2 repeaters. While level 1 is free, level 2 is 650 bucks. It'll still be cheaper than paying someone to do it for you however. Getting the devices at a cheaper price is a different story however as most distributers will require you to have a business. There's always ebay though. I don't recommend it but some don't mind

[simplextech]

43 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Thanks Mr Bill.  If Lutron, with companion switches, I'd have about 150 devices and that pretty much rules out Caseta.  I'm not sure about the Caseta Pro, that's the first I've heard of a "Pro" line.  RadioRA may also work as it has a higher device number capability.  Although, I think it is limited on the number of repeaters and its a big house.  More research is in my future to figure all of that out.  

Here's a comparison guide for you:

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3682773_RA2_HWQS_comparison.pdf

Within Caseta there are two bridges available.  The difference is that the "pro" bridge has the option of using the Lutron Integration Protocol also known/referred to as the telnet interface.  This is required to cleanly integrate the bridge into a control system.

RA2 Select is DIY as well and supports more devices and more repeaters for a larger install.  The full RA2 system has multiple expansion options and 200 devices.  To get to the full 200 devices you will need 2 main repeaters in a single installation which will require L2 certification as was pointed out before.  If Lutron is still offering online classes this training includes a gear bundle worth well over the $650 class fee which includes a main repeater. 

When working with a Lutron system regardless of the product family you can always have multiple installations of them and tie them together with your central control system.  Whether that's the ISY or another system.  This is how many get around or beyond the system limits.

 

[DAlter01]

Simplextech, 

Brilliant on putting in two systems and having them tied together.  I think I am getting somewhere.  I don't mind the $650 class.  I do mind the $210 dimmers, $600 keypads, etc.   But, if able to go with Caseta or RA2 Select or finding a way to  get wholesle price on the full RA2, there may be a reasonably priced option.  But if I read your post correctly, I can have two Caseta/RA2 Select systems and they will essentially operate as "one" under the overall control of an ISY or some other control mechanism similar to how Insteon devices would work?  Does the ISY need a Polisy to make the link to the Lutron system(s)? 

I looked at the chart you sent and for function, I think the Caseta or RA2 Select offers sufficient capability for my needs.  I could use the ISY as the if/then/else controller for the logic needs.  This, assumes, that Caseta and RA2 Select doesn't allow me to have the abilty to have programmed logic.  Is that a true assumption on not having much logic capabilities in Caseta and RA2 select?

Also, if do the companion switches/dimmers count toward the device limit or just the load device?

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

I don't mind the $650 class.  I do mind the $210 dimmers, $600 keypads, etc. 

Yeah... we can talk about the prices

You only need the L2 class if you're going with full RadioRA 2 system AND you want to support multiple main repeaters in the same system.  There's a handful of devices that are only available in the L2 programming but they are niche and not a lot of people deploy them because they are niche so they do take more "care" in setup.  Yet again you can hire a L2 programmer for those specific items if/when you need/want them. 

7 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

I can have two Caseta/RA2 Select systems and they will essentially operate as "one" under the overall control of an ISY or some other control mechanism similar to how Insteon devices would work?  Does the ISY need a Polisy to make the link to the Lutron system(s)? 

From an overall perspective you can make them behave as a single system.  You will not be able to have clean integration between them such as a N-Way setup between the systems though.  Easily resolved in planning the install though.

The NodeServers I've written for Lutron are available on Polyglot V2 currently but were written for Polisy and are being ported to Polyglot V3 which is Polisy only.  Whether I maintain backwards compatibility is unlikely unless there's a large demand for it.

10 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

This, assumes, that Caseta and RA2 Select doesn't allow me to have the abilty to have programmed logic.  Is that a true assumption on not having much logic capabilities in Caseta and RA2 select?

The only Lutron system that provides any conditional logic capabilities beyond time based events is HomeWorksQS which is in a completely different ball park. 

 

[DAlter01]

Great info, thank you!

[oberkc]

4 hours ago, dalter2 said:

Oberkc, that is a low bar,

Yes, it is.

 

[Goose66]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Insteon has always been quiet. For better or worse, that's their nature.

But we are talking years of quiet at this point. I sent an email to Insteon support a week ago and received and answer from Smarthome support within 24 hours claiming they are still around but blaming the shortages on COVID-based supply chain problems and "overwhelming Q4 demand." ?

 I wonder when the patents are up - maybe we will see an explosion of cheap and compatible products like we did with X10.

[lilyoyo1]

54 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

But we are talking years of quiet at this point. I sent an email to Insteon support a week ago and received and answer from Smarthome support within 24 hours claiming they are still around but blaming the shortages on COVID-based supply chain problems and "overwhelming Q4 demand." ?

 I wonder when the patents are up - maybe we will see an explosion of cheap and compatible products like we did with X10.

That's why I said it's their nature. They've never been one to announce or talk about future plans. Outside of those having personal relationships with employees, we've always found out either through fcc filings or once something has been released

[asbril]

4 hours ago, MrBill said:

I don't like z-wave for lighting because you can't group things to operate at the same time.

I understand that other systems (ex: Insteon) are faster because they are grouped directly, but, being Zwave all the way,  I have programs that group lights to go ON or OFF at same time. There may be a one second delay (maybe 2 seconds sometimes), but it is no issue for me.

[DAlter01]

19 minutes ago, asbril said:

I understand that other systems (ex: Insteon) are faster because they are grouped directly, but, being Zwave all the way,  I have programs that group lights to go ON or OFF at same time. There may be a one second delay (maybe 2 seconds sometimes), but it is no issue for me.

Asbril, if Z-wave was fairly fast it would make my life pretty easy.  Maybe I should get a few components and check it out again.  My history with Z-wave for lighting is going on 10 years ago.  Things have hopefully evolved for the better.  I know there is Z-wave Plus.  Maybe that helped the speed and the scene/group commands.  And, maybe the lZ-wave switch gear I selected 10 years ago to sample wasn't the best.  Do you have any devices that are not 100% reliable to a on/off command or that phantom on?  

 

How big are some of your group scenes.  Do you have 50-75 devices in your lighitng groups that need to respond together and do within 1-2 seconds?

[palayman]

57 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

we've always found out either through fcc filings

They actually have some interesting stuff in recent (last year) FCC filings including a new PLM.  Will be very interesting if they deliver.

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's why I said it's their nature. They've never been one to announce or talk about future plans. Outside of those having personal relationships with employees, we've always found out either through fcc filings or once something has been released

They use to do many (like 10+) press releases a year since their inception in 2005. But after just a couple in 2017 and 2018, they've been silent. I don't think they've been at CES since January of 2018, either.

[Bumbershoot]

57 minutes ago, palayman said:

They actually have some interesting stuff in recent (last year) FCC filings including a new PLM.  Will be very interesting if they deliver.

This doodad in the FCC database intrigues me a bit.  It's apparently a spread spectrum transmitter, and it's licensed on 915MHz as well as on Bluetooth LE and WiFi 2.4 GHz.

[lilyoyo1]

17 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

This doodad in the FCC database intrigues me a bit.  It's apparently a spread spectrum transmitter, and it's licensed on 915MHz as well as on Bluetooth LE and WiFi 2.4 GHz.

It's their new hub. They also have a new switch, dial dimmer, Plm, keypad and outlet

[asbril]

1 hour ago, dalter2 said:

Asbril, if Z-wave was fairly fast it would make my life pretty easy.  Maybe I should get a few components and check it out again.  My history with Z-wave for lighting is going on 10 years ago.  Things have hopefully evolved for the better.  I know there is Z-wave Plus.  Maybe that helped the speed and the scene/group commands.  And, maybe the lZ-wave switch gear I selected 10 years ago to sample wasn't the best.  Do you have any devices that are not 100% reliable to a on/off command or that phantom on?  

 

How big are some of your group scenes.  Do you have 50-75 devices in your lighitng groups that need to respond together and do within 1-2 seconds?

Zwave is not perfect. @lilyoyo1 and I amicably disagree on the pros & cons of having one manufacturer (Insteon) vs many manufacturers (Zwave), but he is right that some Zwave brands are better than others. I have some 80 Zwave devices, including many switches and I have learned that GE/Jasco and Homeseer are the better ones. Sometimes I use Inovelli because they are innovative. However, Inovelli is a good example of the negative of Zwave....  To include or exclude a device, with most brands 1 click is enough, but Inovelli requires 6 quick clicks and that can go wrong easily. This being said, newer Zwave devices now have auto-include.

I think that the  maximum number of  devices that I have  in a group program is  about 10, and sometimes these take more than 2 seconds, but my strong suspicion is that this is because about 4 of these devices are still old pre Zwave Plus.  Eventually I will replace these.

Years ago I started with X10 and then added Insteon. When the PLM blew, I made the choice of going entirely to Zwave and do not regret this choice. But would I start from zero today, then I would research alternatives as discussed by others here. With Polisy and nodeservers, we now have many options. Just to play around I have added some Lifx and Kasa devices and they all work fine with ISY and Polisy.

[lilyoyo1]

The problem I see with you using zwave is device limit. With the amount of devices you'll need, you will quickly hit the isy node limit due to the extra 50 million nodes created by each zwave device. That will limit your ability to use nodeservers or integrate other stuff such as insteon keypads into your system. 

As @asbrilhas stated, we have different views on protocols. He prefers the lesser system ?! In all seriousness, you won't go wrong with using either one. Im only comparing insteon and zwave here because Lutron, C4, and above are in a different league. Neither one compares....including price.

Newer zwave devices are faster than older....but still not as fast as insteon. At the end of the day, a delay is a delay. Once you've grown accustomed to watching everything work together, it's hard to deal with the popcorn effect. Not only that, lack of flexibility, as well as all the different variations of devices and their parameters that needs to be set. 

 

[DAlter01]

With Bumpershoot posting the new FCC filing, that doesn't sound like a company "winding" down.  Maybe, as some have suggested, they are preparing for a relaunch.  I will admit the Inteson devices function very well for the price.  I've tried the Lutron and some Z-wave switches and Insteon is the clear leader with their dimmers/switches.  Remembering the pre-set on level, fast response, a true rocker switch, excellent tactile feel, good looks (opinions may vary), its hard to move away from the Insteon dimmers.

Do I pay the price financially and probably in complexity by having a Lutron system that is 100% reliable and I know will be around 10 years from now or do I roll the dice on Insteon staying around for the next 10 years and having a combination Insteon/Z-wave system.  As Asbril has pointed out, there are other options as well but I don't think I can put more variables inside my tiny brain and keep my sanity.

[palayman]

1 hour ago, Bumbershoot said:

This doodad in the FCC database intrigues me a bit.  It's apparently a spread spectrum transmitter, and it's licensed on 915MHz as well as on Bluetooth LE and WiFi 2.4 GHz.

If you look at the confidentiality request with the FCC filing you see that it expires on the release date 3/10/2021. Won't have to wait long to see if it is real.

[palayman]

3 hours ago, asbril said:

There may be a one second delay (maybe 2 seconds sometimes), but it is no issue for me.

That would annoy me. I don't think of 2 seconds as the same time.  I don't want to sense any difference between the 20 or so outside lights I have on at dusk.