asbril Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, palayman said: That would annoy me. I don't think of 2 seconds as the same time. I don't want to sense any difference between the 20 or so outside lights I have on at dusk. I understand your search for perfection ! 2 seconds means not much to me ? Edited January 13, 2021 by asbril
Goose66 Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 34 minutes ago, dalter2 said: Maybe, as some have suggested, they are preparing for a relaunch. Let's hope that relaunch doesn't mean hub only (no PLM) and access limited to app.
DAlter01 Posted January 12, 2021 Author Posted January 12, 2021 The thought of that would send shiver's down the spine of a lot of people. But, that type of stuff does happen. I haven't tried their app since the first generation HUB, what a catastrophe that was. That's fine if they want to get into the software business with an app. But, the reason they have people that buy a bunch of their product is because of the ISY and probably other control systems. It isn't because of their software and will never be. If they want to sell hardware, they will kill their business model if they take away the PLM.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 47 minutes ago, Goose66 said: Let's hope that relaunch doesn't mean hub only (no PLM) and access limited to app. I doubt it since they have a hub and PLM showing in the database.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, dalter2 said: The thought of that would send shiver's down the spine of a lot of people. But, that type of stuff does happen. I haven't tried their app since the first generation HUB, what a catastrophe that was. That's fine if they want to get into the software business with an app. But, the reason they have people that buy a bunch of their product is because of the ISY and probably other control systems. It isn't because of their software and will never be. If they want to sell hardware, they will kill their business model if they take away the PLM. They've released hubs along with PLMs all these years. This isn't something new. They have both a new hub and a new PLM showing in the FCC database. What out there has given any impression that their intentions are to take away the PLM? It's like people jump to the most outrageous of thoughts and run with it. They don't make products for the ISY or any other system. They make them for themselves since their inception. In fact, they were making software before the ISY. Yes the ISY is heads and tails above anything they've ever created but Insteon has still always been a hardware and software company. While many do buy the ISY and other systems to use with their devices, they also sell many of their own hubs on their own. You could probably make a case that most havent heard of the ISY or homeseer until after they've started down the path with the hub and decided they wanted more than it offers. Edited January 12, 2021 by lilyoyo1
DAlter01 Posted January 12, 2021 Author Posted January 12, 2021 What out there has given any impression that their intentions are to take away the PLM? It's like people jump to the most outrageous of thoughts and run with it. 5 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: What out there has given any impression that their intentions are to take away the PLM? It's like people jump to the most outrageous of thoughts and run with it. Yes, good point. Just idle gossip that isn't good for anyone. Thank you for clarifying their long history of providing opportunities for others to integrate with their hardware. And, I also started with their software and just couldn't get it to reliably do what I wanted. Then a friend had an old ISY that he wasn't using and gave it to me to play with. With that, the seas parted, the heavens opened up, and Insteon bacame a marvelous thing for me to work with, ....once I had an ISY. 2
lilyoyo1 Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, dalter2 said: With that, the seas parted, the heavens opened up, and Insteon bacame a marvelous thing for me to work with, ....once I had an ISY. I definitely agree with this statement. I think its that way for a lot of people. Nothing in the insteon world compares. 3
larryllix Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) IMHO Insteon still has the best protocol of any system. Despite Insteon showing all the signs of folding up and going bankrupt for the last seven years, they haven't gone anywhere in that time and I believe they will still be around in 4-5 years, at least. Insteon just doesn't know how to play the marketing BS or even make a decent showing. They never had to, up until this point in time! Their quality always sold their products without speaking. Times are a changin' though. Starting over, I would still go with Insteon, and add on with Zwave, following ISY994's lead. It isn't one or the other. Edited January 13, 2021 by larryllix
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 30 minutes ago, larryllix said: Starting over, I would still go with Insteon, and add on with Zwave, following ISY994's lead. It isn't one or the other. This is where Im at as well. With the ISY supporting multiple protocols now- why choose 1. You can have the best of both worlds.
dbuss Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 The age old question in sales, would you rather sell razors or razor blades? I think the same thing holds true for Insteon, they really want to sell devices. Hubs are how they sell their devices. Insteon hubs are a much easier way to get into home automation due to price and ease of use. Some people like that. My guess is, Insteon loves the sales of their devices that are generated through other manufacturer's hubs as well. It would be interesting to know the percentage of their device sales that are used in other than Insteon hubs. My guess is, it's significant enough they wouldn't want to lose that business. From what I am hearing the home automation business had a pretty good year. I tend to believe that. In my area, hiring a contractor for almost anything last year was very difficult. They were all swamped with business. I would bet the increased demand along with the supply issues due to Covid have created the supply problems for Insteon.
Goose66 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: What out there has given any impression that their intentions are to take away the PLM? It's like people jump to the most outrageous of thoughts and run with it. If you think the idea of hardware manufacturer closing their system in favor of pushing adoption of their own ecosystem is "outrageous," then you haven't been paying attention to the home automation industry for very long. It happens all the time. Is it likely to happen with Insteon? Don't know. But it's far from an outrageous possibility. You and I may wish they would "stay in their lane," but manufacturers rarely do when there are monthly subscription fees for cloud services to be had. Edited January 13, 2021 by Goose66 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, Goose66 said: If you think the idea of hardware manufacturer closing their system in favor of pushing adoption of their own ecosystem is "outrageous," then you haven't been paying attention to the home automation industry for very long. It happens all the time. Is it likely to happen with Insteon? Don't know. But it's far from an outrageous possibility. You and I may wish they would "stay in their lane," but manufacturers rarely do when there are monthly subscription fees for cloud services to be had. I'm not saying it's outrageous that a company would close off it's system. I'm saying that it's outrageous for the information to be right in front of people and they still believe the opposite of what they see. I'm looking at their history along with what information is presente to us. If one were to go by the fcc database (which is what we're doing here), both a new PLM and Hub are shown. Based on that alone, what they could potentially do is a moot point until they do it.
larryllix Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: I'm not saying it's outrageous that a company would close off it's system. I'm saying that it's outrageous for the information to be right in front of people and they still believe the opposite of what they see. I'm looking at their history along with what information is presente to us. If one were to go by the fcc database (which is what we're doing here), both a new PLM and Hub are shown. Based on that alone, what they could potentially do is a moot point until they do it. That makes about 2 or 3 of you that peruse the FCC database. I don't see that as any indication Insteon will exist by the end of 2021. Don't get me wrong but, their complete marketing failure, using word of mouth, may have gotten them some business when their big competition was X10, but it will not get them far with the current market competition. Google and ZWave are in every grocery store, right beside the chocolate bars in the checkout isles (exagg.). Every store in Canada has dropped the Insteon line due to lack of product awareness and no sales. (no exagg.) Their disappearance will not be my choice but their choice lacking funds to pay their Engineer and janitor. Edited January 13, 2021 by larryllix 1
asbril Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, larryllix said: That makes about 2 or 3 of you that peruse the FCC database. I don't see that as any indication Insteon will exist by the end of 2021. Don't get me wrong but, their complete marketing failure, using word of mouth, may have gotten them some business when their big competition was X10, but it will not get them far with the current market competition. Google and ZWave are in every grocery store, right beside the chocolate bars in the checkout isles (exagg.). Every store in Canada has dropped the Insteon line due to lack of product awareness and no sales. (no exagg.) Their disappearance will not be my choice but their choice lacking funds to pay their Engineer and janitor. Your " IMHO " ?
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, larryllix said: That makes about 2 or 3 of you that peruse the FCC database. I don't see that as any indication Insteon will exist by the end of 2021. Don't get me wrong but, their complete marketing failure, using word of mouth, may have gotten them some business when their big competition was X10, but it will not get them far with the current market competition. Google and ZWave are in every grocery store, right beside the chocolate bars in the checkout isles (exagg.). Every store in Canada has dropped the Insteon line due to lack of product awareness and no sales. (no exagg.) Their disappearance will not be my choice but their choice lacking funds to pay their Engineer and janitor. I can't find inovelli, Homeseer, dome, fibaro, and Leviton in stores in Charlotte or Southern California....Does that mean they're going out of business Edited January 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1
larryllix Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said: I can't find inovelli switches in stores in Charlotte or Southern California....Does that mean their going out of business Never heard of innovelli switches.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, larryllix said: Never heard of innovelli switches. I edited to add more. The gist of my statement is just because it's not where you're at Doesnt mean it doesn't exist Edited January 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1
asbril Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 7 hours ago, larryllix said: Never heard of innovelli switches. The internet exists up north ? Seriously, Inovelli is creative and I find some of their devices useful, but their performance is not always 100 %.
asbril Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 Can someone skip ahead 5 years and let us know what has become of Insteon and Zwave ? Something made them both obsolete ? 1
larryllix Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, asbril said: The internet exists up north ? Seriously, Inovelli is creative and I find some of their devices useful, but their performance is not always 100 %. Maybe but the point was if Insteon does not even promote their product or even make an appearance in a store anywhere, they will eventually disappear from bankruptcy. In the old days they were in stores and also people looking for HA would find X10 and Insteon. Today they will find Zwave and never even know Insteon exists, no matter how good their technology is. I had never heard of inovelli before so I would never own one of their products. I see Zwave devices everywhere and I may own some one day. See the association? How many MCR Control HA devices will you buy this year or next year? I hear they are top of the line. Edited January 13, 2021 by larryllix 1
asbril Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, larryllix said: Maybe but the point was if Insteon does not even promote their product or even make an appearance in a store anywhere, they will eventually disappear from bankruptcy. In the old days they were in stores and also people looking for HA would find X10 and Insteon. Today they will find Zwave and never even know Insteon exists, no matter how good their technology is. I had never heard of inovelli before so I would never own one of their products. I see Zwave devices everywhere and I may own some one day. See the similarity? How many MCR Control HA devices will you buy this year or next year? I hear they are top of the line. I doubt that any of us can predict the future. 40 years ago we believed (The Jetsons) that by 2000 we would all use flying cars. What I have noticed over the years in this forum is that in most cases Insteon users are happy with Insteon and Zwave users are happy with Zwave, and even those uses a mix are happy as well. ISY is a big factor in this. I would personally put a question mark on Insteon's future and Zwave will remain fragmented if the Zwave Alliance does not impose a greater functional similarity on manufacturers. My "Jetson" bet is that both Insteon or Zwave will be Yahoos in 5 to 10 years. You should have a look at Inovelli. As I said, their performance is not always 100 % but some of their devices are useful and generally Inovelli is cheaper. I have a special situation in my home where the switch box is in a concrete wall with no space for a smart switch. Inovelli's switches allow me to keep the old non-smart switch and connect it in the existing 3-way setup. I also have one switch box where it is impossible to run a Neutral wire (unless I break open the wall) and a new Inovelli switch lets me connect the light to ISY without the Neutral. Edited January 13, 2021 by asbril
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, larryllix said: Maybe but the point was if Insteon does not even promote their product or even make an appearance in a store anywhere, they will eventually disappear from bankruptcy. In the old days they were in stores and also people looking for HA would find X10 and Insteon. Today they will find Zwave and never even know Insteon exists, no matter how good their technology is. I had never heard of inovelli before so I would never own one of their products. I see Zwave devices everywhere and I may own some one day. See the similarity? How many MCR Control HA devices will you buy this year or next year? I hear they are top of the line. I rarely see zwave anywhere yet I have 25+ devices in my home. Even before insteon tried retail, they weren't seen...yet they sold. I agree with you in that they should do a better job of marketing themselves and it would be great if they were more open about future plans. But that's not them and never has been. At the same time, how many people not interested in automation knows what's out there until they get into it. Most have never heard of crestron, C4, Savant, Homeworks, radio ra2, etc. Even with affordable systems, most don't know who aeotech, fibaro, Homeseer, Dome, etc. None are advertising like that individually to the masses. You may find ge and eaton in lowes/home depot but that's generally a couple of sku's limited to a few devices of each. If anything, the masses know homekit, and whatever wifi devices are cheapest that work with alexa/google...mainly alexa. The last few years has been exceptionally quiet so I get people having questions. My only thing is the outrageous stuff like this Plm talk or products being out of stock (when products are out all over).
lilyoyo1 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, asbril said: I doubt that any of us can predict the future. 40 years ago we believed (The Jetsons) that by 2000 we would all use flying cars. What I have noticed over the years in this forum is that in most cases Insteon users are happy with Insteon and Zwave users are happy with Zwave, and even those uses a mix are happy as well. ISY is a big factor in this. I would personally put a question mark on Insteon's future and Zwave will remain fragmented if the Zwave Alliance does not impose a greater functional similarity on manufacturers. My "Jetson" bet is that both Insteon or Zwave will be Yahoos in 5 to 10 years. You should have a look at Inovelli. As I said, their performance is not always 100 % but some of their devices are useful and generally Inovelli is cheaper. I have a special situation in my home where the switch box is in a concrete wall with no space for a smart switch. Inovelli's switches allow me to keep the old non-smart switch and connect it in the existing 3-way setup. I also have one switch box where it is impossible to run a Neutral wire (unless I break open the wall) and a new Inovelli switch lets me connect the light to ISY without the Neutral. I agree with you in regards to the future which is why I buy what works best for me today and will deal with tomorrow when it comes vs buying for tomorrow. I think insteon and zwave can manage to survive....especially zwave. Regardless of what happens, I don't foresee either truly taking off in a way where they appeal to the masses. It'll be a niche market. Most do not want to invest the time and money to do a whole home properly. Once you start paying someone, the cost goes up exponentially more. Factor in the cost of swapping a few cheap wifi bulbs and an alexa, it's a no brainier for the avg consumer who's simply trying to control their bedroom, living room, and HVAC. Since they probably don't know anyone with a fully automated home (look how many people still require an app on here), they don't know the difference nor what they are missing to want more Personally, whenever we start building our new house, I'm going with C4 over insteon and zwave. I'll still use both for some things however, where it makes sense. Edited January 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1
Goose66 Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: My only thing is the outrageous stuff like this Plm talk or products being out of stock (when products are out all over). You're going on my "I told you so" list! ? In the interest of full disclosure, I am 100% Insteon here (meaning no Zwave or other lighting/switches/modules). $3500+ worth, I would imagine. Edited January 13, 2021 by Goose66 1 1
asbril Posted January 13, 2021 Posted January 13, 2021 41 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I don't foresee either truly taking off in a way where they appeal to the masses. I think that is the point and yes, if I were to start a new home then I would also consider C4, though I enjoy "playing" with it myself and C4 is for professional installation and maintenance.
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