Clone ISY SD card

[hart2hart]

Will something like win32 imager clone an ISY SD card? My ISY card has not failed and it’s from time if release of 994. Thinking of doing as preventative maintenance.

[DennisC]

1 hour ago, hart2hart said:

 

Will something like win32 imager clone an ISY SD card? My ISY card has not failed and it’s from time if release of 994. Thinking of doing as preventative maintenance.

 

Since the process of flashing a new SD card is rather simple if you have a good backup, I would suggest you might be better off spending the time to insure you have regular uncorrupted backups.

[MrBill]

The basic steps to follow are:

1. backup
2. power down, insert new card, power up
3. telnet to isy and format SD card it (may not be required for a new card)
4. use the admin console for your version to login, and re-install the firmware (Note: you can't use The Launcher in this case).  (see the wiki page for more info.)
5. restore backup

Note your backup does not contain the firmware, thus the reason for step 4 and 5 both.

the wiki page is here: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Replacing/Formatting_an_SD_Card

(the ISY will support a 16GB card so long as you're not using ancient firmware 4.2.18 or before.)

My ISY has an address reservation on the network set via the router so the IP address won't change.  If you have a static IP configured from the configure tab of the admin console be ready to find the ISY's new IP address.

Also note that the wiki is contradictory on the point of whether you should format via telnet session.  at one point it says that it's NOT required for a new card, but later there's a note: "Please note: the ISY works with both FAT 16/32, but FS function formats it specifically for use with ISY with some performance improvements so its preferred you use this method."  that suggests formatting via this method should be done.

Edited February 6, 2021 by MrBill

[hart2hart]

Thanks gentlemen. I know about the way to do a recovery if a card were to fail using backups which I have. It felt like if a simple image of card could be created on a new card there might be less moving parts and potentially less room for issues.

With all respect for the advice given, does anyone know if a cloned image will work? I’ve long considered this as another backup before a major upgrade.

[MrBill]

Today was my day for SD card failure.  I started to notice odd things over the weekend and wondered again if it was time, but didn't have time to work on that.  This morning the admin console failed to open, then opened with a lib-403 error with no programs showing in the program tree.

I thought I'd come back and post some more info, while I still can't definitively answer @hart2hart's question about using a win32 imager the answer is probably not, but more importantly I wouldn't bother, It's also not hard or time consuming to do it as UDI suggests in the wiki.  1) replace card, 2) load ISY firmware, 3) restore backup.

I will note however that there are many things about the process that are unclear.   The Wiki page indicates suggests the maximum size SD card compatible is 16gb.  In another recent thread another user stated that 32gb cards are compatible.

However, no matter what size the card is the ISY only uses a portion of it.  Which is the exact reason I think you might get in trouble using a 3rd party imager.

Another BIG problem for those planning ahead, is way back last JUNE, I decided I should have another memory card on hand.  I opened the Wiki and placed an amazon order for what the wiki called for a "16gb SD card".  The wiki however is missing an important word micro as in microSD card.  So in June I ordered an SD card, never opened the package, plopped it down near the ISY only to discover today I needed a microSD card.  The funny part is I actually knew that what was in the ISY was a microSD card because I cleaned the contacts when I changed the Z-wave board.... all the while the full size SD card still in it's package was staring me in the face!???

(for those that want the rest of the story, awhile back I bought a second ISY for messing around. testing etc... I stole the microSD card from that unit and ordered a 3-pack of 16gb cards that will be here tomorrow.   Main ISY had a factory installed 4gb card, second ISY had an 8gb card that still claims it's size as 3956MB when it's in the ISY.)

If preventative changing the microSD card I think the best bet is to just follow the SIMPLE process outlined.  1) Backup, 2) Pop the new card in, 2) load the firmware and 3) restore a backup... the entire process was painless and doesn't introduce incompatibilities possibly created by 3rd party software.

 

 

[hart2hart]

Today was my day for SD card failure.  I started to notice odd things over the weekend and wondered again if it was time, but didn't have time to work on that.  This morning the admin console failed to open, then opened with a lib-403 error with no programs showing in the program tree.
I thought I'd come back and post some more info, while I still can't definitively answer @hart2hart's question about using a win32 imager the answer is probably not, but more importantly I wouldn't bother, It's also not hard or time consuming to do it as UDI suggests in the wiki.  1) replace card, 2) load ISY firmware, 3) restore backup.
I will note however that there are many things about the process that are unclear.   The Wiki page indicates suggests the maximum size SD card compatible is 16gb.  In another recent thread another user stated that 32gb cards are compatible.
However, no matter what size the card is the ISY only uses a portion of it.  Which is the exact reason I think you might get in trouble using a 3rd party imager.

Another BIG problem for those planning ahead, is way back last JUNE, I decided I should have another memory card on hand.  I opened the Wiki and placed an amazon order for what the wiki called for a "16gb SD card".  The wiki however is missing an important word micro as in microSD card.  So in June I ordered an SD card, never opened the package, plopped it down near the ISY only to discover today I needed a microSD card.  The funny part is I actually knew that what was in the ISY was a microSD card because I cleaned the contacts when I changed the Z-wave board.... all the while the full size SD card still in it's package was staring me in the face!
(for those that want the rest of the story, awhile back I bought a second ISY for messing around. testing etc... I stole the microSD card from that unit and ordered a 3-pack of 16gb cards that will be here tomorrow.   Main ISY had a factory installed 4gb card, second ISY had an 8gb card that still claims it's size as 3956MB when it's in the ISY.)
If preventative changing the microSD card I think the best bet is to just follow the SIMPLE process outlined.  1) Backup, 2) Pop the new card in, 2) load the firmware and 3) restore a backup... the entire process was painless and doesn't introduce incompatibilities possibly created by 3rd party software.
 
 

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve got a spare laying in wait for wiki defined process and hoping it’s not needed.

Not that it’s relevant anymore but my thought had been to get one the same size as in the ISY to prevent size related cloning. I’ve had that be an issue on RPis.

[Teken]

I'll add my name to the list of people who experienced a Micro SD card failure. ? Truth be told I had purchased 62 SanDisk High Endurance memory cards in various capacities for several projects on the go. One of the 32 GB cards was assigned to the ISY Series Controller but later was deployed into another network appliance. ?

I already knew this was playing with fire as last year Michel was kind enough to assist in recovering my system from another corrupt media. 

Fast forward to March 08, 2021 I had two separate memory card failures on different network appliances!?!? ?

One thing which I'll call out having gone through this process about 5-6 times over the course of twelve years. If you can't find the ISY Series Controller via the launch (Start) link. Take any recent backup and unzip it and copy the entire contents and dump it to the new card. For me that was a break fix to simply access the Admin Console. Once logged in I proceeded to restore the ISY from a known good back up that was as recent as possible.

Even upon the first ISY Restore it had failed calling out there was some kind of mismatch . . .

The ISY Gods must have been watching as they allowed me to restore from another backup! ?

Bottom line, use High Endurance media proven to work, keep a copy of your backup's on different media and locations, test your backup to insure they work! 

[hart2hart]

I'll add my name to the list of people who experienced a Micro SD card failure.  Truth be told I had purchased 62 SanDisk High Endurance memory cards in various capacities for several projects on the go. One of the 32 GB cards was assigned to the ISY Series Controller but later was deployed into another network appliance. 
I already knew this was playing with fire as last year Michel was kind enough to assist in recovering my system from another corrupt media. 
Fast forward to March 08, 2021 I had two separate memory card failures on different network appliances!?!? 
One thing which I'll call out having gone through this process about 5-6 times over the course of twelve years. If you can't find the ISY Series Controller via the launch (Start) link. Take any recent backup and unzip it and copy the entire contents and dump it to the new card. For me that was a break fix to simply access the Admin Console. Once logged in I proceeded to restore the ISY from a known good back up that was as recent as possible.
Even upon the first ISY Restore it had failed calling out there was some kind of mismatch . . .
The ISY Gods must have been watching as they allowed me to restore from another backup! 
Bottom line, use High Endurance media proven to work, keep a copy of your backup's on different media and locations, test your backup to insure they work! 

Which do you consider high endurance microSD cards? Just SanDisk?

[Teken]

10 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Which do you consider high endurance microSD cards? Just SanDisk?

If you're brand loyal I gather purchasing whoever meets your needs. I've been using the SanDisk branded memory in various capacity and flavors. Each of them offer better long term performance, warranty, and longevity.

This version offers only two year warranty but have been using them since launch and never had a failure. They come in various capacities and the price is extremely competitive.

https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-Endurance-microSDXC-Adapter-Monitoring/dp/B07NY23WBG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=286RQFK5EKMVH&dchild=1&keywords=high+endurance+micro+sd+card&qid=1615245333&sprefix=high+endur%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-5 

This one is more expansive but offers ten year warranty:

https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-Endurance-microSDXC-Adapter-Security/dp/B084CJ9T2R/ref=sr_1_5?crid=337XIGUQL0QBK&dchild=1&keywords=max+endurance+micro+sd+card&qid=1615245553&sprefix=max+en%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-5

These come in restricted capacity but offer a lifetime warranty. I use these in mission critical applications or where the device is extremely hard to access. 

https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-Industrial-MicroSD-UHS-I-SDSDQAF-016G/dp/B07CV344WJ/ref=sr_1_11?crid=30EFBIZZUU1GD&dchild=1&keywords=industrial+micro+sd+card&qid=1615245611&sprefix=industrial+micro%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-11

I use all three in different network appliances and the true test is on vehicle cams / IP camera's that are written to 24.7.365

[MrBill]

@hart2hart

Today my comments are less rosey. 

Yesterday the new 16GB SanDisk Ultra cards arrived (I didn't even know about the Industrial line linked by @Teken and I thought I had done my homework, as this has been a topic RE: a Pi that I have running Home Assistant).   After getting the ISY back up rather quickly the day before I realized that LOGS are an item being written to the card.  This absolutely hammers the card in my case--there was a time that Tools > Log covered literally months, however since Nodeservers the log recycles quickly... 18-24 hours depending.  So that file is just constantly being re-written.   Because of this I decided to install the new SanDisk Ultra card in the main ISY. 

Based on my experience the day before, I thought it would be easy....  however the new experience is not as straight forward.  Leading me to wonder about your idea of copying the card.  Since @Teken states that you can unzip a backup on to a card, but then he later restored it from a backup also I'm wondering if there is a better way.

Anyway comments from my experience yesterday:

The wiki states that if the microSD card is new, that it's possible to skip the formatting step.  I found this to be false.  I made a brand new fresh backup and shut the ISY down, I popped the new 16GB card into the ISY and powered back up.  Opening the Admin console produced LIB-403 error's, I couldn't get to the point of being able to reload the firmware and restore a new backup.  I followed the standard instructions to clear the java cache and re-install The Launcher.  No change.  Searching and reading around the forum, I was about to decide the new card was bad.  I had another new one to try but before I did that I decided to give formatting a try (the step the wiki says to skip if the card is new).  Telenet into the ISY and issued the FS command at which point you have to answer the "are you sure?" prompt with an upper case Y as documented in the wiki.  The wiki then states "You will see the "Goodbye" prompt confirming that the format is complete and that the has ISY rebooted".  That never happens, upon typing the upper Case Y the terminal session appears to lock up, after a period of several minutes the window simply goes to the (inactive) state, your cursor is still blinking next to the capital Y that was typed.  No goodbye and No indication the ISY is rebooting....

The ISY did reboot and I tried to fire up the admin console.  This time success.  First place I went was Tools > Diagnostics > System Status

Interesting!  the ISY is recognizing the card as 16gb.  Seems like I've read plenty of places in the forum that the ISY only used 4gb of a memory card.

I proceeded to restore the backup.... all appeared to go well at that point. and before too long we were back in business. 

BUT Not so fast......

The first thing I noticed was that a scheduled event at 1PM didn't occur.... Check time... Hmmm, the time zone parameters didn't restore.  Looked up the custom Longitude and Latitude values I use and set that up again. 

all good? Nope... next thing I notice is a missing notification.....  investigate... OH there's no email server settings.... reset those....  ("Use default" was checked, and I thought that the default mail server was fixed but apparently not.... "use default" didn't work either.)  Put the settings back to the mail server I normally use, test, back in business...

Until..... something else didn't happen.  I quickly discover a program that should always  "running then" isn't running.  (i.e  has turned to , when it should always be Solid Green).  Scope out my heartbeat programs and they aren't running either... After some sleuthing I realize that this is likely because I reset the time (two paragraphs ago). 

That's all I've found and so far we appear to be back in business.  I'll be certain to report back if there are other items that didn't properly restore.

On another note:  I have popped the cards that came out of the ISY's into a card reader and opened them via  a Win10 file explorer.  There is readable directory structure, making it appear that it might be possible to format a new card (I'd use the ISY to do that, that way the ISY can lay down whatever boot record it wants). and then move the card to a computer and copy the file structure..... I don't know tho, I'm just guessing.... I don't know where the things that were not restored via backup are stored.

 

 

[MrBill]

I should perhaps add that I really don't have problems with manual procedures during these once in a few years events, but I find it difficult that the wiki page doesn't better document the steps to follow, including the needs to reset certain parameters and there isn't a better recommendation for what memory card to buy.

I also wonder and will ask support in the days to come about increasing the log size since I see that appears to be a telnet selectable parameter and i have a much bigger memory card. (and it's usage doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere).

[Teken]

@MrBill

I didn't use the format process via Telnet and the system created most if not all of the native folders. Obviously they were blank as there was no past data from the old card present. Regardless, the system had no problem seeing the SanDisk 32 GB High Endurance card within the system as seen here. One thing to note which probably comes from years of personal experience is not relying on any monitor indicating system health.

I have yet to see the System Status ever declare a bad sector / status - ever . . . I'll also add that the memory display on the front of the unit has never declared a memory fault!! ?

Yet, we all know this exists because we're replacing the blasted card due to it being bad! Now to be fair older cards didn't incorporate health check, write lock, wear leveling, etc. Regardless, having used the cheapest to the most expansive memory known to man I have yet to see a bad sector called out! ?

As a matter of *Best Practice* as dreadful and labor some it is I budget and schedule to replace the memory cards at a defined interval. ⏱️

Doing so will insure long term reliability, uptime, and performance which you know and manage . . .

For those who may stumble upon this thread these are some of the behaviors I saw indicating a failing memory card in no specific order or relevance: 

- Programs: Do not activate on time or at all. Programs which were inside of folders just automagically became ungrouped and were present in the parent tree. Programs show the green saving icon when nothing was changed. Trying to save the same would take forever or declare an error in doing so. Opening the program tab would take years or would just declare an error in doing so which required the user to close the Admin Console and reboot the ISY Series Controller just to access the same.

The famous *Teal Colored* folders which no one has ever seen besides me . . . 

- Hardware: Anything that was linked to other devices seemed to lose their ability to display their true on / off state.

- Backup / Restore: Obviously trying to complete a backup / restore would display endless failed errors in completing the same. 

- Time: As odd as this sounds there were recent emails sent from the system with dates that called out future years like 2088 or 1980's. This obviously impacted one of the critical programs which I use to track the uptime of the ISY Series Controller. As the email sent would either not increment or when the system was physically hard rebooted the uptime interval never reset back to zero. I would see heart beat messages that something failed to report in on time or every device that had a heart beat would just return to a zero state. Hearing Julie U.S. declare a fault at 3:00 AM isn't something I enjoy dealing with never mind being blinded by a gazillion lumens lighting up the entire home and property. ?  

- Self Reboot: The system would automagically self reboot. 

  

[Teken]

10 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I should perhaps add that I really don't have problems with manual procedures during these once in a few years events, but I find it difficult that the wiki page doesn't better document the steps to follow, including the needs to reset certain parameters and there isn't a better recommendation for what memory card to buy.

I also wonder and will ask support in the days to come about increasing the log size since I see that appears to be a telnet selectable parameter and i have a much bigger memory card. (and it's usage doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere).

The log size can be increased as Michel helped me do the same. I believe you need to balance doing so vs adding more writes to the card regardless of the quality. The memory cards that indicate so called High Endurance use MLC / TLC technology which some incorporate wear leveling, ECC, and Health Status. Regardless of what the company calls the memory if you see a company offering a lifetime guarantee which is reflected in its purchase price. 

This memory card is using one of the highest grades and technology present to do so . . .

Having used every major brand of memory I can say don't even think about using Samsung! ?

They are hands down the worst company to deal with warranty coverage and out and out lie to the consumer about *No Warranty* on products that clearly indicate 10 years! One only needs to read the endless threads on the Interwebs where these scum bags have told (Me) and millions of others there is no warranty!

Even if you just bought it 1 second ago from Best Buy . . .

All I can say is dealing with great companies like Best Buy is the only saving grace if you so happen to have purchased Samsh^t memory! 

[MrBill]

@Teken I agree, even the failing memory card showed no bad blocks, that must be a feature not yet implemented. 

I have no problem with scheduling memory card replacement.  My specific complaint was and is that there is no prescribed recommendations published.  1) how to determine the frequency for replacement (I suspect this varies by system size and now number of nodeservers and how much data they write to the LOG) 2) a list of recommended memory cards to purchase. UDI doesn't sell memory cards in the store and not all memory cards are created equal. A simple list of suggestions should be published with the proceedure.  3) Lack of procedure.  I admire Michel greatly, yet in another thread he is currently talking about what is "not a sustainable business model" but guess what... having him help every single user that's headed down this path also isn't a sustainable business model.  He shouldn't have to get involved because I need to systematically replace my memory card, or worse I need his immediate attention because Poof it crashed and I need help putting it back online.  The written instructions don't go far enough, certainly I had the basic idea... install new card, upload firmware, restore backup.   The wiki is also wrong... it says the max mem size is 16gb, and we know from your experience that it's at least 32gb.  It's harder to find smaller memory cards these days, bigger is actually less expensive than older smaller sized cards.  Also on the topic of lack of procedure, I believe the following is missing a) check and reset times zone b) check and reset mail server information c) check and reset ??????   The only reason I had a better experience the first day was because the memory card I installed came out of another working ISY, there for time and mail sever didn't need to be adjusted.

1 hour ago, Teken said:

The log size can be increased as Michel helped me do the same. I believe you need to balance doing so vs adding more writes to the card regardless of the quality. The memory cards that indicate so called High Endurance use MLC / TLC technology which some incorporate wear leveling, ECC, and Health Status. Regardless of what the company calls the memory if you see a company offering a lifetime guarantee which is reflected in its purchase price.

Adding more space to the file doesn't add more writes to the card.  What added more writes to the card was node servers!  It used to be the main LOG would hold months worth of Insteon switch traffic and state variable changes.  Then came nodeservers!  now my 64,000 (or whatever number) rows of logfile are used up and re-written in less than 24 hours.  I don't know how sectors are allocated and/or reallocated on that card but if the files stays in the same spot on the card then increasing its size would actually decrease the number of time specific bytes that are being constantly re-written.   If that card is as smart as they say it is tho, then it may no matter because the whole card should be used as part of the wear leveling algorithm.  AND if it is that smart that wear leveling is using up all parts of the card more or less equally then we should buy the biggest card the hardware can handle.   We however can't make any of these decisions because there isn't enough information available (without asking Michel to hold our individual hands, which is not a sustainable business model).

Quote

For those who may stumble upon this thread these are some of the behaviors I saw indicating a failing memory card in no specific order or relevance: 

to add to your list:

Log file out of order date-wise, or possibly it was in the write order with wrong dates (no way to tell which)

A program clearing displaying in the admin console IF condition_1 AND condition_2 was clearly running as IF condition_1 OR condition_2. 

in the finally hour the program tree vanished entirely from the admin console however program were clearly still running

[LIB_403] errors when trying to start the admin console.  An error not mentioned in the UDI wiki, reading threads in the forum it seems to boil down to replacing or reformatting the SD card.

 

To sum it up, for the price of an SD card I really don't mind having to schedule annual preventive replacement, the problem is lack of guidance and procedure unless we request Michel to come hold our individual hand, a business practice that is not sustainable. 

[Teken]

6 minutes ago, MrBill said:

@Teken I agree, even the failing memory card showed no bad blocks, that must be a feature not yet implemented. 

I have no problem with scheduling memory card replacement.  My specific complaint was and is that there is no prescribed recommendations published.  1) how to determine the frequency for replacement (I suspect this varies by system size and now number of nodeservers and how much data they write to the LOG) 2) a list of recommended memory cards to purchase. UDI doesn't sell memory cards in the store and not all memory cards are created equal. A simple list of suggestions should be published with the proceedure.  3) Lack of procedure.  I admire Michel greatly, yet in another thread he is currently talking about what is "not a sustainable business model" but guess what... having him help every single user that's headed down this path also isn't a sustainable business model.  He shouldn't have to get involved because I need to systematically replace my memory card, or worse I need his immediate attention because Poof it crashed and I need help putting it back online.  The written instructions don't go far enough, certainly I had the basic idea... install new card, upload firmware, restore backup.   The wiki is also wrong... it says the max mem size is 16gb, and we know from your experience that it's at least 32gb.  It's harder to find smaller memory cards these days, bigger is actually less expensive than older smaller sized cards.  Also on the topic of lack of procedure, I believe the following is missing a) check and reset times zone b) check and reset mail server information c) check and reset ??????   The only reason I had a better experience the first day was because the memory card I installed came out of another working ISY, there for time and mail sever didn't need to be adjusted.

Adding more space to the file doesn't add more writes to the card.  What added more writes to the card was node servers!  It used to be the main LOG would hold months worth of Insteon switch traffic and state variable changes.  Then came nodeservers!  now my 64,000 (or whatever number) rows of logfile are used up and re-written in less than 24 hours.  I don't know how sectors are allocated and/or reallocated on that card but if the files stays in the same spot on the card then increasing its size would actually decrease the number of time specific bytes that are being constantly re-written.   If that card is as smart as they say it is tho, then it may no matter because the whole card should be used as part of the wear leveling algorithm.  AND if it is that smart that wear leveling is using up all parts of the card more or less equally then we should buy the biggest card the hardware can handle.   We however can't make any of these decisions because there isn't enough information available (without asking Michel to hold our individual hands, which is not a sustainable business model).

to add to your list:

Log file out of order date-wise, or possibly it was in the write order with wrong dates (no way to tell which)

A program clearing displaying in the admin console IF condition_1 AND condition_2 was clearly running as IF condition_1 OR condition_2. 

in the finally hour the program tree vanished entirely from the admin console however program were clearly still running

[LIB_403] errors when trying to start the admin console.  An error not mentioned in the UDI wiki, reading threads in the forum it seems to boil down to replacing or reformatting the SD card.

 

To sum it up, for the price of an SD card I really don't mind having to schedule annual preventive replacement, the problem is lack of guidance and procedure unless we request Michel to come hold our individual hand, a business practice that is not sustainable. 

Just to clarify my remarks with respect to scheduling memory replacement. My SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) is to use the manufactures listed warranty as a reference to guide me to a replacement interval. All of this hinges upon knowing if the environment is high stress use vs little read / writes. So if the standard *High Endurance* memory offers only two year warranty I have no problem letting that card ride inside of the ISY Series Controller for four years.

Given the previous card was a far cry of being considered High Endurance. ?

Now, if the we go to the polar extreme where I have mission critical systems that manage my security system. I use the industrial memory with a lifetime warranty and change it out at the 8-10 year mark. Given memory continues to drop in price while also increasing in reliability and performance at 4~10 years the cost in ownership is extremely small.

Obviously if I just let the industrial card ride until it explodes whelps that $16 ~ 85.XX investment surely has paid itself in full! 

But, going down that route has obviously led me back to where I am today! ?‍♂️

Everyone will need to decide what path makes the most financial / time effort sense for them. As I understand money doesn't grow on tree's for anyone. Even if it did having to endure a very time consuming process of restore or data transfer isn't something people just wake up and say *Wow do I love swapping memory* ?

[hart2hart]

Just to clarify my remarks with respect to scheduling memory replacement. My SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) is to use the manufactures listed warranty as a reference to guide me to a replacement interval. All of this hinges upon knowing if the environment is high stress use vs little read / writes. So if the standard *High Endurance* memory offers only two year warranty I have no problem letting that card ride inside of the ISY Series Controller for four years.
Given the previous card was a far cry of being considered High Endurance. 
Now, if the we go to the polar extreme where I have mission critical systems that manage my security system. I use the industrial memory with a lifetime warranty and change it out at the 8-10 year mark. Given memory continues to drop in price while also increasing in reliability and performance at 4~10 years the cost in ownership is extremely small.
Obviously if I just let the industrial card ride until it explodes whelps that $16 ~ 85.XX investment surely has paid itself in full! 
But, going down that route has obviously led me back to where I am today! 
Everyone will need to decide what path makes the most financial / time effort sense for them. As I understand money doesn't grow on tree's for anyone. Even if it did having to endure a very time consuming process of restore or data transfer isn't something people just wake up and say *Wow do I love swapping memory* 

I received one of the industrial cards today. After email with Michel via support I had planned as a preventative measure to make another backup (I’ve got hundreds from over the years), remove existing card, format new card in ISY, install correct firmware and then restore backup. Now I’m second guessing all that. [mention]Michel Kohanim [/mention] can you please clarify about all the steps others say are not in the wiki or what was in our email like location, time zone, email server. Are there any others or were the above results from other users an anomaly that should have been restored with the backup?

[Teken]

39 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

I received one of the industrial cards today. After email with Michel via support I had planned as a preventative measure to make another backup (I’ve got hundreds from over the years), remove existing card, format new card in ISY, install correct firmware and then restore backup. Now I’m second guessing all that. [mention]Michel Kohanim [/mention] can you please clarify about all the steps others say are not in the wiki or what was in our email like location, time zone, email server. Are there any others or were the above results from other users an anomaly that should have been restored with the backup?

I'm not sure I follow what your question / problem is?!? 

One thing I haven't tested as I ran out of memory cards is trying to clone the new card to see if it was fine once inserted. This is what I believe you had asked initially so if you have a spare card give it a try and let us know. One would gather you have a 50 / 50 chance of success vs failure in this endeavor. I would favor you would be successful in cloning the second card once the new one was confirmed fully operational. 

[hart2hart]

I'm not sure I follow what your question / problem is?!? 
One thing I haven't tested as I ran out of memory cards is trying to clone the new card to see if it was fine once inserted. This is what I believe you had asked initially so if you have a spare card give it a try and let us know. One would gather you have a 50 / 50 chance of success vs failure in this endeavor. I would favor you would be successful in cloning the second card once the new one was confirmed fully operational. 

I had dropped the idea of cloning the card and was going to follow UD standards of how to create a card after an email exchange with Michel.

Then others above started listing things that this standard method did not cover as in were not in the backup when restored. Like time zone email server etc.

To be clear, I’m not planning to have a backup ready to go microsd card on the shelf. I’m wanting as a preventative measure to replace the one I have (original to the ISY994) now before it starts giving less than optimal backups and/or fails.

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

I had dropped the idea of cloning the card and was going to follow UD standards of how to create a card after an email exchange with Michel.

Then others above started listing things that this standard method did not cover as in were not in the backup when restored. Like time zone email server etc.

To be clear, I’m not planning to have a backup ready to go microsd card on the shelf. I’m wanting as a preventative measure to replace the one I have (original to the ISY994) now before it starts giving less than optimal backups and/or fails.

@hart2hart

I never had the problems seen and experienced by @MrBill

Once the new card was installed to allow the ISY Series Controller to do what ever it does to a new card. I simply removed it and copied over all of the old files from the backup. This was done primarily because the *Finder* didn't allow me to add or find the controller! ?

Once the old data was in place I simply completed the ISY Restore from a known good backup copy.

Everything was there from time zone, email server, minus the NTP server because the backup on hand was done prior to that change. Regardless, this was a good conversation for others to consider or follow should it arise! ?  

[hart2hart]

@hart2hart
I never had the problems seen and experienced by @MrBill
Once the new card was installed to allow the ISY Series Controller to do what ever it does to a new card. I simply removed it and copied over all of the old files from the backup. This was done primarily because the *Finder* didn't allow me to add or find the controller! 
Once the old data was in place I simply completed the ISY Restore from a known good backup copy.
Everything was there from time zone, email server, minus the NTP server because the backup on hand was done prior to that change. Regardless, this was a good conversation for others to consider or follow should it arise!   

Sorry but one more clarification please. Are you saying that just putting card in , booting, locating ISY with finder, installing correct firmware , and restoring the backup works.

Or do you have to unzip a backup and copy files to card before steps above will work?

[Screw Loose Dan]

8 hours ago, MrBill said:

Telenet into the ISY and issued the FS command at which point you have to answer the "are you sure?" prompt with an upper case Y as documented in the wiki.  The wiki then states "You will see the "Goodbye" prompt confirming that the format is complete and that the has ISY rebooted".  That never happens, upon typing the upper Case Y the terminal session appears to lock up, after a period of several minutes the window simply goes to the (inactive) state, your cursor is still blinking next to the capital Y that was typed.  No goodbye and No indication the ISY is rebooting....

 

I guess there's no way to know, but reading how things went, I wonder if the format procedure not go according to plan caused the later issues (time/mail settings, etc).

[Michel Kohanim]

@MrBill,

The LIB Error 403 is because the NLS files have not been installed. It has nothing to do with the format. 

With regard to the logs, ISY does not log continuously. It stores as much as possible into the memory before flushing it. The size of the log matters (as @Teken suggested, you can change this value through the shell). Furthermore, ISY rotates the logs based on the size you choose. So, you will have error.A, B, and C files before they are rewritten. If you have too much traffic/logging, it's best to use larger log sizes. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[MrBill]

12 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@MrBill,

The LIB Error 403 is because the NLS files have not been installed. It has nothing to do with the format. 

With regard to the logs, ISY does not log continuously. It stores as much as possible into the memory before flushing it. The size of the log matters (as @Teken suggested, you can change this value through the shell). Furthermore, ISY rotates the logs based on the size you choose. So, you will have error.A, B, and C files before they are rewritten. If you have too much traffic/logging, it's best to use larger log sizes. 

With kind regards,
Michel

Thank you Michel,

Are the NLS files then installed during format?  Because format was what cured that problem.

Thanks you for the additinal information about logging, On smaller memory cards it does seem that would add accelerated failure, especially since nodeservers cause much more information to be logged.  I don't have a small card anymore tho, so how would I determine the best value to change this to?

Is timezone and mail server information included in the ISY backup that is restored?   I suspect I didn't have this problem with the first memory card I robbed from the 2nd ISY because those values where already set on that system.  When I repeated the process 24 hours later with a brand new card, those values where not set when the backup was restored.   If that's the case are there other things in the configuration we should set or check after a memory card swap?

Edited March 11, 2021 by MrBill

[Teken]

17 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Sorry but one more clarification please. Are you saying that just putting card in , booting, locating ISY with finder, installing correct firmware , and restoring the backup works.

Or do you have to unzip a backup and copy files to card before steps above will work?

@hart2hart

To be clear the process outlined by the UDI WiKi should be followed in the ideal situation. For me I had to go another route as the system would not locate / find my ISY Series Controller. Having spent more than twenty minutes on no less than five different computer systems to gain access I went down the path as listed below. 

- Old Card: Remove old Micro SD card and copy all files assuming you can. As in the past if the card is completely damaged and unreadable there's nothing for you to do. The steps below resolves the issue where a Micro SD card is completely damaged and unreadable.

- New Card: Insert new card into the ISY Series Controller the system will create several base folders which will be empty. Power down the ISY Series Controller and remove the new Micro SD card. 

- Back Up: Insert your new Micro SD card into your media reader. Locate and unzip a known good ISY backup and copy over the entire contents to the new Micro SD card. Eject the card gracefully in Windows than physically remove the same from the card reader.

- Restore: Insert the new Micro SD card into the ISY Series Controller and power it up. Once up the Finder / ISY Launcher will list out the controller for Admin Console access. Than select File -> Restore ISY -> Select known good backup file -> Grab a cold spirt of choice and wait.

NOTE: As stated up above the first attempt at restoring the data from a backup failed with a mismatch error. I don't pretend to know why that is as no errors were present during its creation. I proceeded to use another backup and the restore process completed without errors or issues. Hence its imperative to test all backups at some defined threshold in a real world use case. 

Take Away: Any network appliance that writes consistently to memory should use High Endurance media regardless of what the maker calls it. Any media that indicates a Lifetime Warranty for High Endurance / Industrial grade more than likely use the highest grade of technology to offer the same. No matter what the bad sector value is listed as - Don't count on it. No matter what the memory error indicates on the face of the controller - Don't count on it. Every Micro SD card that has failed has never presented any of the above status indicators. This is why its imperative to budget and schedule based on the use case of the writes from that network appliance to replace said media on a defined interval.

Going this route costs more money but any down time you have is controlled and managed by you! This is normal process for all of us in Enterprise as cycling through media is how systems and services can sustain 99.99999 uptime.

Following the same industry standards (Best Practices) insures a Happy Wife = Happy Life! ?  

[hart2hart]

@MrBill,
The LIB Error 403 is because the NLS files have not been installed. It has nothing to do with the format. 
With regard to the logs, ISY does not log continuously. It stores as much as possible into the memory before flushing it. The size of the log matters (as @Teken suggested, you can change this value through the shell). Furthermore, ISY rotates the logs based on the size you choose. So, you will have error.A, B, and C files before they are rewritten. If you have too much traffic/logging, it's best to use larger log sizes. 
With kind regards,
Michel

Direct from the wiki:

“SKIP if a new SD Card
Format the SD Card - you do NOT' have to format the SD Card if it's new
Telnet To Your ISY
Login with the admin password
Issue "FS" to format the SD Card, answer the "Are you sure question" with an upper case "Y"
Please note: the ISY works with both FAT 16/32, but FS function formats it specifically for use with ISY with some performance improvements so its preferred you use this method.”

The wiki appears to contradict itself. It says “SKIP if a new SD cCard” and “FS function formats it specifically for use with ISY with some performance improvements so its preferred you use this method.”

Which is correct?

Thanks.