Mustang65 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 19 hours ago, danbutter said: Zigbee and wifi share the same RF which is already overcrowded while insteon and zwave are in a much clearer space RF wise. They also have units with the 915Mhz frequency, which are the ones that I use on some of my home DIY installs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 33 minutes ago, smokegrub said: Unfortunately, I didn't finish my comment. I have found Insteon devices incredibly reliable. My device failure rate has been extremely low. I am hopefuly that Insteon will emerge stranger than ever before and with an incredible new product line. Its Coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang65 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said: Its Coming soon. Probably not in my lifetime:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang65 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 What would be great is if the interface manufactures would design their modules/door locks.... with an interchangeable ZigBee chip module so that the end user could change the desired frequency between 2.4 and 915. The module firmware could determine which module is being used and adapt accordingly. This would be a nice security feature for door locks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Mustang65 said: Probably not in my lifetime:-( I pray it is since it's not too much longer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Mustang65 said: What would be great is if the interface manufactures would design their modules/door locks.... with an interchangeable ZigBee chip module so that the end user could change the desired frequency between 2.4 and 915. The module firmware could determine which module is being used and adapt accordingly. This would be a nice security feature for door locks. Yale already does something like that with their line of locks which is why I use them for my installs. For standard non automated homes, we won't use a module, if it's a C4 home, I'll use their zigbee module, and if it's a smarthome, I'll use a wifi module, and if it's a diy setup, zwave. I doubt if someone will ever allow people to change frequencies however. Too much risk of something going wrong and causing them more headaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 hours ago, asbril said: For sure there will be more and different options over the years and this will matter (pun intended...). Right now I would not be a fan of a wifi based home automation system, but it is likely that wifi will evolve as well and not be susceptible to easy overcrowding. My choice remains entirely with UD and ISY as they have shown to adapt to a quality integration of new products and technology. Polisy is only at its very beginning. We all started our home automation at a certain moment, with what we considered the best cost/benefit efficient product available at that time. Then a new option arrived and another one later on..... Most of us did not dump all we had and started all over again, but we tried to work with what we had while as much as possible taking advantage of new options. That is the genius of ISY, first X10 + Insteon + Zwave, and now much more with Polisy. I don't see wifi evolving enough anytime soon. Wifi has the same problem as smartphone batteries. As they increase in size, performance, and capabilities, more is demanded from them. Look at wifi now. Take a modern router and use it 15 years ago. Wifi would seem perfect. Today however, we still end up with the same issues from 15 years ago. Why? Because modern devices are much more demanding than they were then. Just like with everything else in the world, sheer numbers can be overwhelming to anything. Look at what it takes for public venues to handle traffic. Most people want plug n play (and cheap) which will always struggle to manage alot of devices. Most people aren't going to have the time, money, or desire to invest in an enterprise solution. Many won't even buy their own router, instead choosing to use the cable companies router despite all the information out there about them. You're right about the isy. While we all want more immediately, they've grown in such a way that has allowed us to take advantage of the best available devices for our homes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 A question that matters about Matter: does anyone think that Amazon, Google, and Apple all want the same thing in the HA realm? If so, what's going to differentiate their offerings? Personally, I think it would be great: imagine a world where a company like UD could simply reuse its Alexa intents to also talk with GH and Siri. What would be better than that? ? All kidding aside, I have looked at the Github for Matter. Except for commissioning, privacy, and security goals to all of which I agree with x infinity, I haven't yet seen anything that defines objects. So, let's just wait and see what they come up with. Hopefully it's not the repackaging of Zigbee 3.0, then dot.dot, etc. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: A question that matters about Matter: does anyone think that Amazon, Google, and Apple all want the same thing in the HA realm? If so, what's going to differentiate their offerings? Personally, I think it would be great: imagine a world where a company like UD could simply reuse its Alexa intents to also talk with GH and Siri. What would be better than that? ? All kidding aside, I have looked at the Github for Matter. Except for commissioning, privacy, and security goals to all of which I agree with x infinity, I haven't yet seen anything that defines objects. So, let's just wait and see what they come up with. Hopefully it's not the repackaging of Zigbee 3.0, then dot.dot, etc. With kind regards, Michel My sentiments exactly. The big 3 all have something to lose by making everything equal... Apple with their homekit. Google with Nest, and Amazon with ring. What I can see happening exactly what you say about the API. Developing a standard for adding a device to a system, privacy, and security. However, each company (especially Amazon and google), will probably leave the best features of their devices locked to their ecosystem. None probably cares enough about 3rd party stuff since they all typically support the same 3rd party devices. For the end user, they'll be more secure but nothing will change overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmirl Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 The objects are there, it is a repackaging of Zigbee but Apple is in the middle changing things. Apple is the largest contributor of code to Matter. Apple is definitely extending Homekit to support Matter devices without them needing Homekit certification. Google is also fully onboard. Amazon is the questionable one. Amazon has joined but their people are not showing up. https://github.com/project-chip/connectedhomeip/blob/master/src/controller/data_model/gen/CHIPClusters.h This article illustrates why the big three are behind Matter. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22386086/amazon-strong-arm-power-ecobee-antitrust-tech The big three want to short circuit companies like Ecobee from creating walled gardens. Personally I am getting very tired of these walled gardens and Tuya is responsible for making a lot of them. For those that don't know -- the Ecobee devices are all encrypted on the LAN. Only Ecobee software can talk to them. So Amazon wanted to display the temperature from an Ecobee thermostat on an Echo Show. Because of the encryption Amazon is forced to ask Ecobee for permission to get that value via the Ecobee cloud. At this point a fight ensued between Ecobee and Amazon. Details are not public but I suspect the true story is that Ecobee asked Amazon to PAY for access. Now multiply this over a hundred walled gardens. Matter just going to be at demo stage for CES 2022 I doubt if it will ship for real before Q3 2022. With Matter devices the big three won't have to ask the vendor for permission to access the devices. Permission control has been moved to the user instead of the device manufacturer. This is the big multi-admin feature of Matter. With multi-admin the user has the ability to attach the device to multiple clouds. In the current world that Ecobee thermostat can only attach to the Ecobee cloud. In the Matter world the user has the ability to attach it to both the Ecobee cloud and the Amazon cloud. I am skipping a lot of technical details here; you don't directly attach the device to the Amazon cloud instead you attach the device to an Echo which is attached to the cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmirl Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 The obvious thing for UD to do is to build a Matter proxy into the ISY. That proxy would expose all of the devices connected to the ISY as Matter devices. UD might want to spend the $7K to join Matter since it will let you exhibit in the big Matter booth at CES 2022. I am sure the big three are going to make a lot of noise about Matter at CES and focus a lot of press attention on it. You can probably get $7K of free press just by joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 24 minutes ago, jonsmirl said: The objects are there, it is a repackaging of Zigbee but Apple is in the middle changing things. Apple is the largest contributor of code to Matter. Apple is definitely extending Homekit to support Matter devices without them needing Homekit certification. Google is also fully onboard. Amazon is the questionable one. Amazon has joined but their people are not showing up. https://github.com/project-chip/connectedhomeip/blob/master/src/controller/data_model/gen/CHIPClusters.h This article illustrates why the big three are behind Matter. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22386086/amazon-strong-arm-power-ecobee-antitrust-tech The big three want to short circuit companies like Ecobee from creating walled gardens. Personally I am getting very tired of these walled gardens and Tuya is responsible for making a lot of them. For those that don't know -- the Ecobee devices are all encrypted on the LAN. Only Ecobee software can talk to them. So Amazon wanted to display the temperature from an Ecobee thermostat on an Echo Show. Because of the encryption Amazon is forced to ask Ecobee for permission to get that value via the Ecobee cloud. At this point a fight ensued between Ecobee and Amazon. Details are not public but I suspect the true story is that Ecobee asked Amazon to PAY for access. Now multiply this over a hundred walled gardens. Matter just going to be at demo stage for CES 2022 I doubt if it will ship for real before Q3 2022. With Matter devices the big three won't have to ask the vendor for permission to access the devices. Permission control has been moved to the user instead of the device manufacturer. This is the big multi-admin feature of Matter. With multi-admin the user has the ability to attach the device to multiple clouds. In the current world that Ecobee thermostat can only attach to the Ecobee cloud. In the Matter world the user has the ability to attach it to both the Ecobee cloud and the Amazon cloud. I am skipping a lot of technical details here; you don't directly attach the device to the Amazon cloud instead you attach the device to an Echo which is attached to the cloud. All of this stuff has come up in the past for various frameworks and none have yet fully delivered on their promises. We've heard it with zwave, ZigBee, Homekit, thread, Alljoyn, and others....yet here we are. Using your example of ecobee doesn't guarantee anything changes. They can still lock things down in such a way that only certain information gets released from it to a 3rd party. Or release a matter specific version that's not as fully featured as the current one. Regardless, it's more about what gives everyone what they are looking for today, not a year or 2 from now. Until things are released and used in the wild, I'll hold off on jumping on that bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 27 minutes ago, jonsmirl said: The obvious thing for UD to do is to build a Matter proxy into the ISY. That proxy would expose all of the devices connected to the ISY as Matter devices. UD might want to spend the $7K to join Matter since it will let you exhibit in the big Matter booth at CES 2022. I am sure the big three are going to make a lot of noise about Matter at CES and focus a lot of press attention on it. You can probably get $7K of free press just by joining. You mean the way other companies did for Homekit only to watch it languish for years and still not be all it claimed? Let's just chill with Matter until Matter actually matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmirl Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Matter certification process will block uncooperative vendors from partially implementing the spec. If a device wants to use the Matter logo it will have to support multi-admin. As for what has changed -- I think the big three are fed up with the walled garden model and they intend to tear it down. Obviously this works to their advantage. They are going to commoditize the devices while simultaneously making it difficult for competing platforms to emerge. Homekit failed because part of the deal was that Apple took 7% of your revenue. Soon as a I saw that the paperwork when into the trash can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctviggen1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Don't you think the big three are walled themselves? Anyway, for myself, these are moot. I can't replace the many, many Insteon and Zwave items I currently have. It took me YEARS to add as many devices as I have, and to spread the cost over that time. I couldn't afford to do it any other way. And I definitely can't afford to buy something that may or may not work at some point in the future. At least I know if I buy Insteon and Zwave, they work with what I have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmirl Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 The big three are walled, but what can you do about it? What I don't want is 20 different wall gardens in my house. I can live with having one of the big three since there is little I can do about that. Personally I am getting annoyed with Tuya devices. Tuya has multiple walled gardens. If the vendor using Tuya pays the $100K fee for white labeling, Tuya makes them their own garden to play in now those devices don't interoperate with other Tuya devices. I have given up on Tuya and I reflashed the devices I could access the flash pins on with open source code. Also, Matter not going to be in stores until next summer earliest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 28 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said: Don't you think the big three are walled themselves? Anyway, for myself, these are moot. I can't replace the many, many Insteon and Zwave items I currently have. It took me YEARS to add as many devices as I have, and to spread the cost over that time. I couldn't afford to do it any other way. And I definitely can't afford to buy something that may or may not work at some point in the future. At least I know if I buy Insteon and Zwave, they work with what I have now. In addition to what you said, despite the multitude of devices each one of those systems can control vs the ISY, the ISY can still automate things much better than they probably ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogan Bora Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 I noticed that the only Lamp Dimmer/Lamp On/Off plug in devices are the old promotional versions of their Lamp Linc and the older footprint is not in their line anymore and yet it is $50 at Smarthome and $65 at Amazon! I have lost the use of 6 2456D3 Appliance/LampLinc modules and 3 Exterior ApplianceLinc Modules. I am trying to simplify my network and not have a disjointed array of brands, technologies and controllers. Is there a ISY friendly plug in outlet device out there that I can use rather than add $500 + to my Insteon Pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBill Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Dogan Bora said: Is there a ISY friendly plug in outlet device out there that I can use rather than add $500 + to my Insteon Pain? Kasa SmartPlugs 4 for 24.99 They are on/off only devices (not dimmers), and you need Polyglot (either via Polisy or rPi) to run the Kasa nodeserver. If you don't need to Dim they work amazing. I have 12 total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmirl Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Have you tried the Kasa Dimmers? https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-HS220-Dimmer-Switch-1-Pack/dp/B079775ZZQ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2ZKNJ0CGO6NMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 40 minutes ago, jonsmirl said: Have you tried the Kasa Dimmers? https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-HS220-Dimmer-Switch-1-Pack/dp/B079775ZZQ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2ZKNJ0CGO6NMM I am not about to change my Zwave wall switches, but the functionality of this Kasa Dimmer looks nice. I have several Kasa plug-ins that I use in programs for a specific "Scene" (I use programs for scenes). For this purpose there is lag (wifi to Polisy to Zwave) but it does the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokegrub Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 10 hours ago, asbril said: stronger ? ? Yes. Poor typist and failed at proof-reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang65 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, smokegrub said: Yes. Poor typist and failed at proof-reading! As a teen, I had a lot of proof reading classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbril Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Mustang65 said: As a teen, I had a lot of proof reading classes from stranger to stronger to more stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogan Bora Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 18 hours ago, MrBill said: Kasa SmartPlugs 4 for 24.99 They are on/off only devices (not dimmers), and you need Polyglot (either via Polisy or rPi) to run the Kasa nodeserver. If you don't need to Dim they work amazing. I have 12 total. Did you also notice Amazon is selling the Insteon Plug in Dimmer at 25% premium at $65 over Insteon at $50! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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