Elk rules not working for me

[WayneW]

History: an Elk M1 using an XSP & PLC with all linking and XSP loading done by PowerHome

 

Now: an M1 using an XEP and an ISY-26 with a PLM.

 

Issue: some(?) Elk rules are intermittent(?). Some things seem to work fine. so far, I haven't figured out the difference.

 

All devices tested using the ElkRM interface seem to be 100% reliable, so I believe I have the ISY setup correctly and the import/export done properly.

 

For example, I have some rules to trigger a light based on motion or door opening. It worked fine under the old Insteon setup, but hardly ever works under the new setup.

 

When the rule triggers, I see the lamp go to the desired 35% in ElkRM, but it is still "off" in the ISY. If I had the ISY Event Viewer running, I see no activity. But using ElkRM triggers the light and the proper responses in the ISY interface.

 

In summary, it appears that there are network issues between the ISY and the XEP that interfere with Elk rule operation, but not with manual operations, which makes no sense to me.

 

Is this familiar to anybody or any ideas how to troubleshoot?

 

My ISY and XEP are both static IPs.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi WayneW,

 

The first thing I recommend is to ensure that the option flags are set in the Lighting module in ELK RP.

 

I do not think this is a network issue. Is it possible that your ELKRP is connected when you are testing the rules?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

History: an Elk M1 using an XSP & PLC with all linking and XSP loading done by PowerHome

 

Now: an M1 using an XEP and an ISY-26 with a PLM.

 

Issue: some(?) Elk rules are intermittent(?). Some things seem to work fine. so far, I haven't figured out the difference.

 

All devices tested using the ElkRM interface seem to be 100% reliable, so I believe I have the ISY setup correctly and the import/export done properly.

 

For example, I have some rules to trigger a light based on motion or door opening. It worked fine under the old Insteon setup, but hardly ever works under the new setup.

 

When the rule triggers, I see the lamp go to the desired 35% in ElkRM, but it is still "off" in the ISY. If I had the ISY Event Viewer running, I see no activity. But using ElkRM triggers the light and the proper responses in the ISY interface.

 

In summary, it appears that there are network issues between the ISY and the XEP that interfere with Elk rule operation, but not with manual operations, which makes no sense to me.

 

Is this familiar to anybody or any ideas how to troubleshoot?

 

My ISY and XEP are both static IPs.

[WayneW]

Here is a sample rule:

 4 
WHENEVER Living Rear Door (Zn  BECOMES NOT SECURE
     AND IT IS DARK OUTSIDE
           THEN TURN LR Sign-Of-Life (Out 63) ON FOR 1 MIN, RESTART TIMER IF RUNNING
5 
WHENEVER Living Room Mot (Zn 34) BECOMES NOT SECURE
     AND IT IS DARK OUTSIDE
           THEN TURN LR Sign-Of-Life (Out 63) ON FOR 1 MIN, RESTART TIMER IF RUNNING
6 
WHENEVER  LR Sign-Of-Life (Out 63) STATE IS TURNED ON
     AND LR Table Lamp [10 (A10)] IS OFF
           THEN SET LR Table Lamp [10 (A10)] TO 30% BRIGHT, FADE RATE = 0
7 
WHENEVER  LR Sign-Of-Life (Out 63) STATE IS TURNED OFF
           THEN TURN LR Table Lamp [10 (A10)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0

 

If I change line #6 to be full on, instead of 30%, it seems to work more often (which is still rare), but not 100% and it never goes off.

 

The only known significant difference between this rule and the old system is that the light is now A10 instead of whatever it used to be, but I may have accidentally broken something while trying to troubleshoot.

 

But I have other rules similar to this above and they all have the same problem.

 

And I think this rule works OK, but it has only been two days

14 
WHENEVER THE TIME IS 1 MINUTE BEFORE SUNSET
           THEN TURN OFC Desk Lamp [4 (A4)] ON, FADE RATE = 0
           THEN TURN Outside Entry [102 (G6)] ON, FADE RATE = 0

[WayneW]

The first thing I recommend is to ensure that the option flags are set in the Lighting module in ELK RP.

 

I do not think this is a network issue. Is it possible that your ELKRP is connected when you are testing the rules?

Yes, all lighting devices have the "Opt" column "X"ed in ElkRP, which was done by the import process. I let the import process clear all my previous lighting info. I have un-enrolled the old XSP used for the PLC, so that should not be an issue. I have no X-10 devices.

 

I don't think that ElkRP was connected during most of the testing as that shuts down ElkRM, which I was using as one of my troubleshooting aids. And even if I had it connected during testing, it wasn't connected during most of the "real world" usage failures. But thanks for the heads-up as I was not expecting ElkRP to interfere with light testing since it didn't interfere with light testing using an XSP and PLC.

 

My ISY and PLM are currently NOT in my HA closet, which is where my PLC lived, but this isn't acting like an Insteon communication issue, so I am confused.

[WayneW]

One more tidbit: I let the ISY learn my existing Insteon network as I had a functioning Insteon environment. I have NOT doubled checked all my scene and KeypadLinc cross references, but this issue is centered around direct control of a single SwitchLinc, so that didn't seem critical to me.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Wayne,

 

This is surely not an INSTEON communications issue since the communications between the two systems is through the network.

 

If you see the Security bar on the top of the Admin Console consistently (i.e. it does not appear/disappear randomly), then I am almost certain that the issue is not even network communications.

 

So, in logical order:

1. If it's not network comm. issues

2. And, if sending direct commands from ELK to ISY works

3. And, if ISY properly updates the device status in ELK

4. And, if the ELK rule actually fires

Then, for me, the only thing that I can deduce is: although the rules are triggered in ELK, they are not sent out through XEP. This is the only logical conclusion, wouldn't you agree?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[WayneW]

Hi Wayne,

This is surely not an INSTEON communications issue since the communications between the two systems is through the network.

Agreed, if it was an Insteon issue, it would probably be isolated to a few devices.

 

If you see the Security bar on the top of the Admin Console consistently (i.e. it does not appear/disappear randomly), then I am almost certain that the issue is not even network communications.

Agreed, as I have not noticed that bar coming & going. I am using port 2101 (the NON secure port). should I be using 2601 (the secure port)?

 

So, in logical order:

1. If it's not network comm. issues

2. And, if sending direct commands from ELK to ISY works

3. And, if ISY properly updates the device status in ELK

4. And, if the ELK rule actually fires

Then, for me, the only thing that I can deduce is: although the rules are triggered in ELK, they are not sent out through XEP. This is the only logical conclusion, wouldn't you agree?

1) seems like a logical assumption.

2) True

3) Ummm... does ISY update ElkRM? that doesn't make sense with what I think I am seeing. I am seeing "correct" info in ElkRM but not in the ISY.

4) Yes, i have verified the rule is firing, both by adding Elk voice announcements and by looking at my HomeSeer logs.

 

So, why would Elk rules not send out the right info to the XEP? it seems like a plausible answer, but it seems like I would not be the first to discover this. Don, any ideas here? My firmware on the ISY-26 was updated when I bought it and my M1 has beta firmware 4.5.21 (significant as to why nobody else has seen this?)

 

Do I need to learn a bit of Wireshark and see what is communicated between the XEP and the ISY?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Wayne,

 

1. Yes, you are using the correct port ... please do not use 2601

2. If you turn on a device physically (or through the Admin Console) does the status of the device change in ELK console?

3. If you do not have the latest ISY firmware, I strongly recommend it

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[WayneW]

2. If you turn on a device physically (or through the Admin Console) does the status of the device change in ELK console?

Yes, turning on a light from the ISY Admin console also updates the ElkRM console.

 

3. If you do not have the latest ISY firmware, I strongly recommend it

I have 2.7.6, which seems to be the latest released. Are you encouraging me to go to beta firmware? I do not object.

 

 

For whatever reason, things seem to be working much better this evening. Even my wife noticed and appreciated. Since my problem didn't make much sense and I have no idea why it is working better now, I think I need to slow down, verify some more facts and get the big picture before I start chasing my tail.

[WayneW]

Things change from day-to-day, so this is very frustrasing. I suspect that the XEP is not communication properly with the ISY all the time WHEN USING RULES, but have no hard facts to back that up.

 

Everything works fine 100% when I test it manually via the ISY interface or the ElkRM interface. For now, I have moved my essential time based lighting to the ISY, to keep the wife happy and make sure things are stable before a trip. After the trip, I will dig into this some more as I really want Elk to be in control of my lighting, both simple time/sunset based and rule (motions/door switches/etc) based. Right now different rules work differently on different days without me changing anything, so I am frustrated and confused. I believe my rules syntax and design is correct as they all worked properly with PowerHome and the PLC.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi WayneW,

 

It does seem very frustrating. I would be.

 

Is there a trace in ELK to see if the rule actually execute?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[WayneW]

Is there a trace in ELK to see if the rule actually execute?

Not exactly. But I have adding some temporary voice announcements to the rules and those always talk. And some of the rules affect Elk outputs (pseudo timers) that do get logged into my HomeSeer log. So I am pretty sure the rules are always firing as they should be. Unfortunately, I have no confirmation that every "then" is getting executed. I want to investigate if I can get my HomeSeer script to log the lighting changes (from the Elk perspective).

 

Is the communication between the XEP and the ISY acknowledged? IE, TCP, rather than UDP? Is there any chance that another client (ElkRM or my HomeSeer script) is intercepting a command meant for the ISY? I don't know why else the Elk would think a light is on, but the ISY shows it off and an ISY query of the light makes the Elk now show it as off.

 

It is weird, as some days/nights it seems like the complicated rules (motion triggers, etc) don't work, but the sunset timers do work. Then the next night it is the opposite.

 

So far, I don't have any rules in my ISY based on Elk arming, but I wonder if there is some commonality between my issues and ryarber's rules issues (one of 2 threads back).

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Wayne,

 

This must be quite annoying if not outright frustrating.

 

To answer your questions:

1. ISY uses TCP to communicate with ELK. It is very possible that this connection breaks. Please note that every time you connect your RP to ELK, you are disrupting the connection from ISY to ELK

2. I am not sure HomeSeer or other plugins would have any impact simply because we are not listening to them

 

What is your network topology? How many routers/switches you have and where are the ELk and ISY relative to one another?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[WayneW]

To answer your questions:

1. ISY uses TCP to communicate with ELK. It is very possible that this connection breaks. Please note that every time you connect your RP to ELK, you are disrupting the connection from ISY to ELK

2. I am not sure HomeSeer or other plugins would have any impact simply because we are not listening to them

 

What is your network topology? How many routers/switches you have and where are the ELk and ISY relative to one another?

1) I don't use ElkRP much in day-to-day operation, so that shouldn't be an issue. Is there anything that needs to be done to re-establish the ISY-XEP communication after ElkRP disconnects? I assume this should happen automatically, just like ElkRM and my HomeSeer script reconnect automatically.

2) Could ElkRM or ElkRMS (what Elk uses on their touchscreens) or the HomeSeer script (all listening on 2101) be somehow intercepting commands and preventing the ISY from hearing commands? I do often have multiple copies of ElkRM running 24/7 on various computers.

 

The network topology is a single Dell GigE switch with a single router providing WAN access. The ISY and XEP are both connected straight to the network switch, albeit with different cable paths or intermediate connections.

 

Maybe I need to create an all-lights-on scene and test that a few times to make sure I don't really have an Insteon issue confusing everything?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Wayne,

 

I do not think there are any conflicts with ELKRM and HomeSeer and M1XEP. But, would it be possible to disable the HomeSeer for one day to see the results?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[WayneW]

For the sake of anybody following along or reading this in the future, I wanted to update this thread and close it out.

 

I partly worked around this issue by having my sunset rules in the ISY and having the ISY schedule extra "off" events to make sure things were really off.

 

Basically, before I spent more time troubleshooting this, I decided to upgrade to the new Elk firmware, 4.5.24, "just in case". Either the mere act of loading firmware or something that changed in this new firmware seems to have fixed most of my problems. If the old firmware was broken, I have no idea why others weren't struggling also. But I was scared by the low participation in my poll, which either shows that very few were using the Elk with the ISY, or else that everybody elses install worked so good that they never come to the forum to vote. But either way, it didn't give me the "warm fuzzy" that I craved.

 

Once I had most things working properly with 4.5.24 (and no changes on the ISY/Insteon side), then I focused on the few things that weren't working right and was embarrassed to discover I still had a few rules that turned a light on for X minutes, then was turned off by the same rule. This was known to be an Elk XSP issue a few years ago, so I was pretty sure I didn't have any rules like that, but I guess I got lazy once Elk fixed that issue and made the fatal ASSUMPTION that I didn't have any of "those" rules.

 

But Elk has responded quickly to the reports and I have had very good luck with a beta firmware over the past day so lights now turn off properly.

 

So, a heartfelt thanks to all those that responded, especially Michel, as I now have a nicely working system and can confidently embrace all the cool features that the ISY will add to my setup.