ISY994i ZW+/IR PRO & Insteon 2413U - How to connect?

[Victor Orly]

Hey Folks; 

Like everyone else in here, my Insteon Hubs are dead (regular hub & hub pro) - actually it's my 3rd Insteon Hub Pro that died prompting me to get the ISY994i Pro. So... I got this and the Insteon 2413U (2413S not available anywhere).

How do I connect the ISY994i to the 2413? I'm confused.

Thanks

 

Vic

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, Victor Orly said:

Hey Folks; 

Like everyone else in here, my Insteon Hubs are dead (regular hub & hub pro) - actually it's my 3rd Insteon Hub Pro that died prompting me to get the ISY994i Pro. So... I got this and the Insteon 2413U (2413S not available anywhere).

How do I connect the ISY994i to the 2413? I'm confused.

Thanks

 

Vic

You can't! It requires 2413s

[Brian H]

The ISY994i ZW+/IR Pro. Communicates with the PLM by a serial communications signals protocol.

You need a 2413S Serial Port PLM not a 2413U USB PLM.

If you where strictly ZWave then the PLM would not be needed. As it is only needed for Insteon and X10.

[Victor Orly]

Unavailable at Amazon, where can I get it? And what cable connects the two devices?

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, Victor Orly said:

Unavailable at Amazon, where can I get it? And what cable connects the two devices?

The instructions and what you need comes in the box with the Isy. If you Google ISY wiki you'll find what you're looking for. 

The 2413s is out of stock and will be for quite some time

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Brian H]

https://www.universal-devices.com/docs/production/ISY User Guide 4.2.8.pdf

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

The connection from the ISY994i serial connector to a 2413S PLM is a CAT5e network style cable. Your ISY994i kit should have had the main unit, a power supply, 2 CAT5e Network cables and a Quick Users Guide.

Not a normally seen DB9 serial cable. The pin out diagram and signals are shown in the 2413S PLM quick users guide. Only the RS232 Out, RS232 In and Common Ground are used. The TTL level signals are not used in this setup. https://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2413Sqs.pdf

The 2413S PLM did come with a Network RJ45 connector to DB9 connector cable buried in the box. With only three signals RS232 Out,RS232 In and Common Ground carried through. In this case it is not used.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Brian H
Add Stuff

[Dale-]

I recently bought an ISY994i also only to find out that the 2413S is being discontinued.

So I'm looking towards Universal devices to help us come up with some kind of solution for us new users to jury rig the 2413U into the ISY994i

I'm finding it hard to believe that the 2413U cannot be linked in some way with the ISY994 considering that the internals of the 2413S and the 2413U are not that different, other than a direct serial interface or the U providing serial RS232 communication over the USB bus.

Both offer an RS232 communication, all be it that the 2413U provides that over the USB bus at 19,200 baud, so one would think that a USB to Serial cable could be used convert the signal from USB to serial RJ45 3pin.

BUT I found out that the 2413U doesn't provide +-5v over the USB interface which is what would be needed to power a USB to Serial cable converter. Like an equivalent prolific PL2303 USB to serial adapter:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Prolific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00IDSM6BW/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl_SHBhCQARIsAFIFRVWem8ngyWfKA-IMY1EvO9Bus-4a4oaZcjgQ9tlSbCbxnnvZX2hZOBsaAthGEALw_wcB&hvadid=174229528311&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007584&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15922817551577557036&hvtargid=kwd-1923584537&hydadcr=24627_9648891&keywords=usb+to+serial+cable+adapter&qid=1627246829&sr=8-3

So I purchased a powered USB HUB, the hub would provide the +5v to my USB to serial cable converter, however when I connected it all together, still no luck, the ISY boots fine, no error lights, solid blue power light, log into the admin portal and the diagnostics in the ISY still says that the PLM is still not connected.

I'd like a response from Universal devices on what we would need to do to get the ISW994i zw+ IR /PRO connected with a Insteon 2413U. Even if its some technical babble that we could take to an electrical engineer and get a custom adapter made up because I feel that I wasted $200 on an ISY that I can now never use.

 

UPDATE: Universal devices, please tell me that this is not the only way to solve the problem?!?

https://github.com/mrworf/serial-bridge

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Dale-

[lilyoyo1]

30 minutes ago, Dale- said:

I recently bought an ISY994i also only to find out that the 2413S is being discontinued.

So I'm looking towards Universal devices to help us come up with some kind of solution for us new users to jury rig the 2413U into the ISY994i

I'm finding it hard to believe that the 2413U cannot be linked in some way with the ISY994 considering that the internals of the 2413S and the 2413U are not that different, other than a direct serial interface or the U providing serial RS232 communication over the USB bus.

Both offer an RS232 communication, all be it that the 2413U provides that over the USB bus at 19,200 baud, so one would think that a USB to Serial cable could be used convert the signal from USB to serial RJ45 3pin.

BUT I found out that the 2413U doesn't provide +-5v over the USB interface which is what would be needed to power a USB to Serial cable converter. Like an equivalent prolific PL2303 USB to serial adapter:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Prolific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00IDSM6BW/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl_SHBhCQARIsAFIFRVWem8ngyWfKA-IMY1EvO9Bus-4a4oaZcjgQ9tlSbCbxnnvZX2hZOBsaAthGEALw_wcB&hvadid=174229528311&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007584&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15922817551577557036&hvtargid=kwd-1923584537&hydadcr=24627_9648891&keywords=usb+to+serial+cable+adapter&qid=1627246829&sr=8-3

So I purchased a powered USB HUB, the hub would provide the +5v to my USB to serial cable converter, however when I connected it all together, still no luck, the ISY boots fine, no error lights, solid blue power light, log into the admin portal and the diagnostics in the ISY still says that the PLM is still not connected.

I'd like a response from Universal devices on what we would need to do to get the ISW994i zw+ IR /PRO connected with a Insteon 2413U. Even if its some technical babble that we could take to an electrical engineer and get a custom adapter made up because I feel that I wasted $200 on an ISY that I can now never use.

 

UPDATE: Universal devices, please tell me that this is not the only way to solve the problem?!?

https://github.com/mrworf/serial-bridge

 

If you need to contact Udi, you should submit a ticket directly.

So you purchased a product that told you what you need, ignored it, and now upset with UDI? The information was there, READ IT!

Have you looked in the back of your Isy (and 2413s) and saw the connections for them vs the 2413u? That explains why it doesn't work with the isy

[Dale-]

16 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If you need to contact Udi, you should submit a ticket directly.

So you purchased a product that told you what you need, ignored it, and now upset with UDI? The information was there, READ IT!

Have you looked in the back of your Isy (and 2413s) and saw the connections for them vs the 2413u? That explains why it doesn't work with the isy

Yeah, not useful,.... I asked a question, you ignored it, all the information was there, see what I typed, Read it.

Further more, you're making numerous assumptions.

Anyone else with an actual engineering idea before I go down the Pi path?

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Dale- said:

Yeah, not useful,.... I asked a question, you ignored it, all the information was there, see what I typed, Read it.

Further more, you're making numerous assumptions.

Anyone else with an actual engineering idea before I go down the Pi path?

 

11 minutes ago, Dale- said:

Yeah, not useful,.... I asked a question, you ignored it, all the information was there, see what I typed, Read it.

Further more, you're making numerous assumptions.

Anyone else with an actual engineering idea before I go down the Pi path?

You asked a question to UDI and I stated contact them directly via ticket if you want a response from them. I added, if you look at the 2413s compared to the 2413u and the ports on the Isy, you'd see why the 2413u wouldn't work. You don't need an engineer to figure it out. Simply looking at your parts would tell you why.

The fact that all listings for the isy (except maybe eBay) says use the 2413s which you ignored makes your whole blowup worthless is simply extra. The information is there. Dont get mad at UDI...READ!!!

 

[Brian H]

The 2413U USB PLM. Has a FTDI USB interface chip in it. It uses a FTDI  VCP driver to make it look like a serial port to the computer.

There is no +5V on the 2413U USB connector. It is a B type meant to be tied to an A type on the computer. That has a +5VDC on its pins.

The USB (monitor) jack on the ISY994i is described as "The Monitor port (ISY-994i Series ONLY) is a micro USB port used for initial configuration for users without a DCHP-enabled network, or for advanced troubleshooting. Please use a standard micro USB cable to connect your ISY to an available USB port on your PC." The unit wants to see a PLM on the A Serial port RJ45 type connector.

[Victor Orly]

So, to use the 2413U, I bought these. Haven't had time to try them out yet...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0769J9QXP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AA2SMS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[gzahar]

 

3 hours ago, Victor Orly said:

So, to use the 2413U, I bought these. Haven't had time to try them out yet...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0769J9QXP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AA2SMS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It won't work directly because the RJ45 pinout on the 'USB to RJ45 serial adapter' isn't the same as the ISY RJ45 pinout.  You will need something to adjust the pinout at the very least.

[Brian H]

I also agree. The pin out digaram on the Amazon site. Shows all the signals on the incorrect pins the 2413S and ISY994i used.

You will have to get the correct signals from your converter. To the proper signal connections on the ISY994i. To simulate it talking to a 2413S PLM. Only TxD RS232, Out, RxD RS232 In and SG signal ground are used.

RTS,CTS,DSR, DTR, and RI are not used and best not to be connected to the ISY994i

Converting the 'B' style to the 'A' style adapter. May also be a problem. The USB connector on the 2413U PLM. Does not have the +5 volt out connection on it. On a 'B' type connection it is a +5V input supplied from the device it is connected too. So you will have no power to the USB to Serial adapter.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Brian H
Add stuff.

[Dale-]

9 hours ago, Victor Orly said:

So, to use the 2413U, I bought these. Haven't had time to try them out yet...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0769J9QXP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AA2SMS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Victor

I like the idea but Ive already tried that approach, The first link you shared is a USB to Cisco console cable, which is a rolled cable, meaning all 8 pins for the serial side are rolled in the opposite direction. Unfortunately this didn't work for me, It has to be a straight through cable leveraging pins 1(tx),2(gnd) 8(tx). I also have a USB to Serial RS232 straight through adapter and this has also failed. So there is something I'm missing.

[Dale-]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

I also agree. The pin out diagram on the Amazon site. Shows all the signals on the incorrect pins the 2413S and ISY994i used.

You will have to get the correct signals from your converter. To the proper signal connections on the ISY994i. To simulate it talking to a 2413S PLM. Only TxD RS232, Out, RxD RS232 In and SG signal ground are used.

RTS,CTS,DSR, DTR, and RI are not used and best not to be connected to the ISY994i

Converting the 'B' style to the 'A' style adapter. May also be a problem. The USB connector on the 2413U PLM. Does not have the +5 volt out connection on it. On a 'B' type connection it is a +5V input supplied from the device it is connected too. So you will have no power to the USB to Serial adapter.

I appreciate the valuable input and information.

Attached is a picture of my current setup where I'm trying to engineer a solution to fix the problem. So far no success so im going to be trying the Raspberry Pi Solution next.

[Brian H]

The serial cable between the RS232 adapter and the ISY994i does not look like the correct pins are being used.

I will have to see what I can determine.

I know the 2413S uses Pin 1,7 and 8. To the ISY994i. So it should also use 1,7 and 8 for its connection to the PLMs serial signals.

RJ45-1 is the serial out to the ISY994i. RJ45-8 is the serial in from the ISY994i. RJ45-7 is the signal common for both devices.

The included cable if used used the standard DB9P pins 2, 3 and 5 to RJ45.

The information in the 2413S quick guide. May give you some added information. I will ring out the serial cable included with the 2413S. Remembering the cable was to interface with the PC serial input port. http://cache.insteon.com/documentation/2413Sqs-en.pdf

Edited July 26, 2021 by Brian H
Add information.

[Dale-]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

The serial cable between the RS232 adapter and the ISY994i does not look like the correct pins are being used.

I will have to see what I can determine.

I know the 2413S uses Pin 1,7 and 8. To the ISY994i. So it should also use 1,7 and 8 for its connection to the PLMs serial signals.

RJ45-1 is the serial out to the ISY994i. RJ45-8 is the serial in from the ISY994i. RJ45-7 is the signal common for both devices.

The included cable if used used the standard DB9P pins 2, 3 and 5 to RJ45.

The information in the 2413S quick guide. May give you some added information. I will ring out the serial cable included with the 2413S. Remembering the cable was to interface with the PC serial input port. http://cache.insteon.com/documentation/2413Sqs-en.pdf

You're right, I was wrong and its a typo in my picture and text. The cable is actually using pins 1,7,8 and not 1,2,8.

So I still have the right cable.

 

Update, I believe 'MrWorf' from this thread is very close to having a solution for the 2413U.

I think this maybe the only way to engineer our way out of this issue.

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Dale-

[mwester]

There is no workable solution that does not involve the use of a computer (of some sort) between the ISY's serial port and the USB PLM.

USB is NOT a peer-to-peer connection, it is -- by design -- a "device-side" and "host-side" connection.  USB-to-Serial converters are "Device-Side-USB-to-Serial" converters (and if someone can find one that claims to be a "Host-Side-USB-to-Serial" converter, the way it does so is by embedding a small host computer in the converter, such as a Raspberry-PI-Zero or similar!).

My point is to help "un-confuse" any future readers of this thread who may think it's just a matter of the right "gender-changer" adapters and figuring out what the pinous might be -- it's not that simple.

Carry on...

[Brian H]

If it is a standard DB9S connection on the USB to Serial port. It use 2, 3 and 5 on the DB9S side..

The ISY994i uses RJ45 pins 1, 7 and 8. With the signals reversed on 1 and 8 from the 2413S PLM side. So the proper signal is directed to the correct signal pins on the other device.

As pointed out by mwester. It is not a simple set of connections and adapters. You do need some intelligence to process the USB signals.

The FTDI chip in the 2413U normally needed a driver in the computer to get it a serial port assignment.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Brian H
Add information.

[Dale-]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:09 PM, mwester said:

There is no workable solution that does not involve the use of a computer (of some sort) between the ISY's serial port and the USB PLM.

USB is NOT a peer-to-peer connection, it is -- by design -- a "device-side" and "host-side" connection.  USB-to-Serial converters are "Device-Side-USB-to-Serial" converters (and if someone can find one that claims to be a "Host-Side-USB-to-Serial" converter, the way it does so is by embedding a small host computer in the converter, such as a Raspberry-PI-Zero or similar!).

My point is to help "un-confuse" any future readers of this thread who may think it's just a matter of the right "gender-changer" adapters and figuring out what the pinous might be -- it's not that simple.

Carry on...

'There is no workable solution' .......except for this one which also looks like it would be compatible with the 2413U

 

My posts to this thread were to just foster some discussion and engineering around the problem.  I do agree that the bus vs point-to-point communication was always going to be an issue. I just wanted some idea of how to get around it. Thats all

Edited July 28, 2021 by Dale-

[mwester]

45 minutes ago, Dale- said:

'There is no workable solution' .......except for this one which also looks like it would be compatible with the 2413U

Please be fair about your quoting and comments.  The solution you cite involves "the use of a computer" as I stated in my actual post.

[Dale-]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:24 AM, mwester said:

Please be fair about your quoting and comments.  The solution you cite involves "the use of a computer" as I stated in my actual post.

Its still a solution, regardless ....

[mbski]

Once ISY on Polisy is public you can use that 2413U PLM. It is currently in alpha testing, which means beta will follow soon. You will need to buy a Polisy. You might find someone who has an extra 2413S and see if they will part with it, as some have migrated to Z-wave. There’s been a lot of talk about the serial PLM being discontinued.
 

Just a few suggestions.

Edited August 1, 2021 by mbski
Text addition

[oskrypuch]

Is there any reason to not think, that the 2413U will go out of stock, just like the serial version did?

* Orest