There is a train leaving and we're not on it. (Matter and Homekit)

[upstatemike]

7 hours ago, bruceyeg said:

In my case, as INSTEON slowly dies, I'd like to swap all my INSTEON devices for Matter devices and continue to run my smart home with my ISY.

How do you know you want to do this until you see some actual Matter devices? I want to see what Matter switches look like and what features they have. Will they match some of the innovations we are now seeing in Z-Wave products? How will Matter perform in real world situations? I don't think there is enough information yet to say that Matter is the logical next step from Insteon.

[upstatemike]

1 minute ago, jec6613 said:

By and large, I would rather something run in 2.4 than the 700-900 MHz range inside of my house because of much better propagation and penetration characteristics, as well as the smaller, more sensitive antennas.  For HA devices, 2.4 ISM is the band you want to use.

This is the opposite from my experience. For me lower frequency protocols such as Clear Connect and LoRa penetrate better than Wi-Fi. My one LoRa receiver reliably connects to every LoRa sensor in my house while it takes 10 Access Points to ensure Wi-Fi coverage. Even with Wi-Fi the 2.4GHz band penetrates better than the 5GHz band. Higher frequencies provide higher data rates (no value in HA) but I have not seen improved propogation or penetration over the lower frequency HA protocols.

[upstatemike]

21 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Compare that to a high end system where the retail price varies online but generally runs 200-250 per switch. Yet, depending on supplier, you'll pay maybe half that. Depending on system, Controller costs can go into the thousands of dollars. Just on hardware alone, you've made the same as a low cost installation in profit alone before even including other charges such as installation, programming, and other fees. 

The way people are, they will search online to see how much products costs. This information is readily available with low cost systems which greatly limits you to how much you're able to charge which limits your income on the flip side. These reasons and more adds to why one common system for each type wouldn't work

I suppose as long people are willing to pay 200-250 for a switch that does little more than follow a programmed schedule or respond to a motion sensor then there is not much incentive for companies to innovate features or improve protocols. I am disappointed in mankind in general for not demanding more progress. I could do most of what high end systems currently provide back in 1975 with X-10. Was hoping for so much more nearly half a century later.

[jec6613]

15 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

This is the opposite from my experience. For me lower frequency protocols such as Clear Connect and LoRa penetrate better than Wi-Fi. My one LoRa receiver reliably connects to every LoRa sensor in my house while it takes 10 Access Points to ensure Wi-Fi coverage. Even with Wi-Fi the 2.4GHz band penetrates better than the 5GHz band. Higher frequencies provide higher data rates (no value in HA) but I have not seen improved propogation or penetration over the lower frequency HA protocols.

Comparing HA devices to WiFi is comparing apples to horses - one requires a much better SNR to connect because of its higher bandwidth, and therefore isn't comparable.  One can talk around the world on 5W if your bandwidth required is CW Morse code, but it'll take upwards of 1 kW to send your voice.

For an actual HA dedicated protocol, 700-900 MHz frequency ranges end up being de facto substantially worse than the 2.4 GHz ranges.  This can be seen even with the old cordless phones - Digital 900 had inferior range to DECT 6.0 phones running on 1.9 GHz.

The largest reason, and the trouble with 700 and 900 MHz, is that their wavelength is between 33 and 42 cm - or at least a foot long.  This makes a standard half wave dipole antenna 6" long, which obviously doesn't fit in most devices, so they start either running shorter or folded antennas, which are always compromises, and usually significantly so.   2.4 GHz has about a 12 cm wavelength, and its 6 cm (about 2.3") does indeed fit into a compact device, such as a standard electrical gang box or door sensor - and it doesn't really matter if one frequency penetrates 2x better if the antenna only picks up 1/4 of the signal.  And, yes, this is why electric meters that must transmit significant distances through foliage and the like to get to the next electric meter use 2.4 GHz, because as corporations they could easily put it almost anywhere on the spectrum they wanted to (with a license, of course).

Now, if you do have room for a proper antenna, then that changes the game quite a bit, but that's not an HA discussion and starts getting into radio theory.

Edited August 31, 2021 by jec6613

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, larryllix said:

WiFi has many 2.4GHz channels and baby monitors, and some wireless phones all use the 2.4GHz bands. They don't compete. Many utilities use Zigbee in their metering to read your meters remotely. Speed is not a factor there though, as it would be for HA.

I haven't looked at any of the new standard Zigbee equipment yet, but I have always heard it is a much better protocol. Philips Hue users don't report problems that I have heard.

IIRC wikipedia had a good article on the zigbee standards coming out.

ZigBee can potentially interfere with wifi in the 2.4Ghz band (and Vice versa). Due to ZigBee being narrow band, most likely wifi will cause issues with it vs ZigBee causing issues with wifi. It is possible however.

One of the things they emphasize in C4 training is to make sure you choose a channel that does not compete with your wifi network vs letting the system automatically choose the channel for you. 

The interesting thing would be how does the system keep things free when taken to scale when using ZigBee. Most people do not even know about channels and how things can potentially effect their network. 

I have an open mind about matter. I can't see myself ripping my stuff out just to switch over as I don't see any benefit of what they offer vs what I'm doing now. In fact, when I look at capabilities I'd be taking a step backwards instead of forward

[larryllix]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

ZigBee can potentially interfere with wifi in the 2.4Ghz band (and Vice versa). Due to ZigBee being narrow band, most likely wifi will cause issues with it vs ZigBee causing issues with wifi. It is possible however.

One of the things they emphasize in C4 training is to make sure you choose a channel that does not compete with your wifi network vs letting the system automatically choose the channel for you. 

The interesting thing would be how does the system keep things free when taken to scale when using ZigBee. Most people do not even know about channels and how things can potentially effect their network. 

I have an open mind about matter. I can't see myself ripping my stuff out just to switch over as I don't see any benefit of what they offer vs what I'm doing now. In fact, when I look at capabilities I'd be taking a step backwards instead of forward

Yeah, That automatic channel choice works for the masses when things are not too crowded on the band and the automatic arbitrator works well. I found many routers make bad channel choices so far, based what seems like on one choice per reboot, or week.  Every time I would change my WiFi channel, a neighbour's router would choose the same channel, for some reason.   Likely a co-incidence because this neighbour didn't know what SSID his router was using.

Then bands get crowded and the automatic channel selections fail miserably because there is no place to go. The new 802.11ax protocols offer hope for these conditions using the cell phone style frequency sharing techniques and much faster speeds, even on the old WiFi5 bands. Now WiFi6 has taken a grip, and even the newer WiFi6E, band is starting up offering likely thousands of simultaneous connections.

Between Insteon and WiFi protocols, my 150+devices do quite well once I discovered some routers just can't handle the quantity of devices. Unfortunately, memory constraints is not an advertised feature in routers. It's all about speed and relative numbers, right now. With HA, absolute numbers of devices is important but they like to hide those factors. Selecting a WiFi system is a hit and miss operation right now.

Mesh routers may make it better for neighbours, but not the user, with their reduced Tx power levels. I got caught on that game badly when my 400' away neighbour's router overpowered my own mesh WiFi channels inside my own house. (the one whose router seemed to track my manual channel selections)  Now my HA devices all run on a older non-mesh router with higher power levels, and they haven't been dropped since

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I suppose as long people are willing to pay 200-250 for a switch that does little more than follow a programmed schedule or respond to a motion sensor then there is not much incentive for companies to innovate features or improve protocols. I am disappointed in mankind in general for not demanding more progress. I could do most of what high end systems currently provide back in 1975 with X-10. Was hoping for so much more nearly half a century later.

A switch is a switch. All they can do is turn on, off, and/or dim. What more do you expect out of them?

The power comes from the controller/software and the programmer. These systems can do as much of as little as you choose for them. The reason why homeowners systems seem so limited is because I stallers are generally installing for people who don't know what they want done. It's hard to to program for someone's life when they don't know what they want done themselves. Not only that, the more complicated something is, the more likely something will go wrong. When your name is on the line, do you really want to take the blame over someone else's mistake because they forgot how something works? I'll be the first to admit that there are many things I do in my own home that is never do in someone else's. 

The devil is in the details when it comes to high end systems vs diy low end counterparts. For one, they generally age alot better. It's like a luxury car vs a standard car. A Rolls-Royce Phantom from 2005 still looks like a high end luxury car 16 years later. Can you say the same about any avg car out there? Yes looks are subjective but how often have you heard someone say a C4 or savant switch is looking aged? 

They also offer increased reliability. While you may think they're comparable to X10 from the past, no one has ever said they love it's reliability. Ditto for insteon and zwave. I'm not speaking on longevity but signal reliability. Insteon and zwave are better than X10 but fall short when compared to high end systems done properly. 

Dimming led bulbs with lutron, C4, Crestron, or Savant generally carries a much better experience than insteon or zwave. This is why you hear people talk about the lighting experience when it comes to high end vs home control or automation aspect of things. Take C4 for example. It starts from the moment you walk up to a switch and it lights up. None of this back lights and side lights too bright stuff. When the lights turn on smoothly vs stepping up. It's simply a different level. It's not really something you can appreciate from the outside looking in. You have to truly experience it to understand the difference. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Yeah, That automatic channel choice works for the masses when things are not too crowded on the band and the automatic arbitrator works well. I found many routers make bad channel choices so far, based what seems like on one choice per reboot, or week.  Every time I would change my WiFi channel, a neighbour's router would choose the same channel, for some reason.   Likely a co-incidence because this neighbour didn't know what SSID his router was using.

Then bands get crowded and the automatic channel selections fail miserably because there is no place to go. The new 802.11ax protocols offer hope for these conditions using the cell phone style frequency sharing techniques and much faster speeds, even on the old WiFi5 bands. Now WiFi6 has taken a grip, and even the newer WiFi6E, band is starting up offering likely thousands of simultaneous connections.

Between Insteon and WiFi protocols, my 150+devices do quite well once I discovered some routers just can't handle the quantity of devices. Unfortunately, memory constraints is not an advertised feature in routers. It's all about speed and relative numbers, right now. With HA, absolute numbers of devices is important but they like to hide those factors. Selecting a WiFi system is a hit and miss operation right now.

Mesh routers may make it better for neighbours, but not the user, with their reduced Tx power levels. I got caught on that game badly when my 400' away neighbour's router overpowered my own mesh WiFi channels inside my own house. (the one whose router seemed to track my manual channel selections)  Now my HA devices all run on a older non-mesh router with higher power levels, and they haven't been dropped since

I agree. That's why it's interesting to see and I'm taking a wait and see approach. Every year it seems like we get the same promises that fail to live up to what they say once in the real world. 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Yeah, That automatic channel choice works for the masses when things are not too crowded on the band and the automatic arbitrator works well. I found many routers make bad channel choices so far, based what seems like on one choice per reboot, or week.  Every time I would change my WiFi channel, a neighbour's router would choose the same channel, for some reason.   Likely a co-incidence because this neighbour didn't know what SSID his router was using.

Then bands get crowded and the automatic channel selections fail miserably because there is no place to go. The new 802.11ax protocols offer hope for these conditions using the cell phone style frequency sharing techniques and much faster speeds, even on the old WiFi5 bands. Now WiFi6 has taken a grip, and even the newer WiFi6E, band is starting up offering likely thousands of simultaneous connections.

Between Insteon and WiFi protocols, my 150+devices do quite well once I discovered some routers just can't handle the quantity of devices. Unfortunately, memory constraints is not an advertised feature in routers. It's all about speed and relative numbers, right now. With HA, absolute numbers of devices is important but they like to hide those factors. Selecting a WiFi system is a hit and miss operation right now.

Mesh routers may make it better for neighbours, but not the user, with their reduced Tx power levels. I got caught on that game badly when my 400' away neighbour's router overpowered my own mesh WiFi channels inside my own house. (the one whose router seemed to track my manual channel selections)  Now my HA devices all run on a older non-mesh router with higher power levels, and they haven't been dropped since

I just updated my router from Google Wifi to Google Nest Wifi. It gives better coverage but at far end of my 3000 sq ft home not more than 40% of the speed at the router.

[Teken]

I truly believe competition in any form is good for the general public. This generally speaking pushes other laggard companies to finally innovate and do better.

Think every phone maker caught off guard by apple’s iPhone! Two of the largest phone makers in history (Motorola / Nokia) decimated by a computer company?!?

The problem today isn’t about competition it’s about companies insisting upon pushing a walled garden product, service, protocol.

Think any proprietary software or hardware in the wild today.

This time four years ago there was another thread about four new protocol standards from the likes of Samsh^t and others. None of them have taken off or gained market share regardless of who signed on like you constantly read about.

Why?!?

As it pertains to IP devices generally speaking it allows easy integration to existing infrastructure. The problem is nobody serious about security would consider such a thing. The market and the public attitude as it pertains to security & privacy has changed and people just don’t care to invest the time and resources to lock down their own network.

It only took the router makers 25 years to move away from using admin / admin!!

Then again when you read about every major institution from hospital, school, business, financial, government being hacked / held for ransom. All on the heels of half the Internet being taken down by DNS, DDOS, none of this registers on the public!

Gee making your entire home one giant network open to the public. Can’t see that being a epic fail eh?!?

The best thing to happen sometime in the near future is the entire internet shuts down for an entire month. Even this won’t stop the less than bright fools in adopting IP devices connected to the cloud!

At this juncture depending upon which market segment. There isn’t a lot of real competition or innovation just rebranding, colour, and lipstick to stand out.

Lastly, I’m not a fan of Elon Musk but have to say that he has single handily pushed innovation and competition in markets that never innovate!

I mean you literally have guy school every space agency in the world in making a self landing rocket??? Like the tens of millions of people around the world couldn’t do this 25 years ago???

Just shows you how lazy NASA and every other space agency has been in 50 years! Then you have his electric cars which every maker is trying to push out now to catch up?

Automakers = Lazy

Next you have tens of thousands of constellation of satellites to offer ISP, GPS?

Satellite Providers = Lazy

Next we have power storage to help offset high loads and the use of peaker plants. Now he’s going to be his own POCO in Texas?!?

Utility = Lazy

The above is true competition and innovation! Not what you see from the likes of Samsh^t who if people recall was found guilty in the court and international trade for stealing dozens of elements from Apple!

Samsh^t = Lazy

This just explains why the president of Korea and Samsung CEO were sent to jail for being corrupt, and you guessed it, stealing IP because they are too lazy to innovate!

[Goose66]

On 8/26/2021 at 2:05 PM, jlegault said:

...there is a node for iAqualink. BUT you know what, the node is a toy. It does nothing useful. It's because the developer did not attempt to work with Jandy to get access to an API, instead it's a hack unsanctioned by the manufacturer.

Not that I want to be that guy that is so easily triggered, but just so you know WE DID REACH OUT TO ZODIAC (the owner of Jandy) and Michel and I had several email conversations with them regarding access to the iAqualink API, on multiple occassions, in fact. Ultimately they proved unfruitful because Zodiac didn't see enough value to them in working with UDI and their customers. I even pursued some backchannels to the tech company that implemented the web and app interfaces, but to no avail. And this is far from the only time that such overtures have been made to manufacturers. I commend Michel for continuing to try to wedge an open platform into an perpetually closed world of home automation.

I would also point out that all of us that continue to try and make the ISY work in as many ecosystems and devices as possible share your concerns - we talk about these issues all the time. You don't have a  lock on indignation here. I had a PC with an IBM voice-recognition board, an X10 Serial Interface (the old one before the CM11A), a VGA genlock, and an RF modulator for music and voice-based home control throughout my first house back in 1993. I often express the thought that we haven't really come all that far in the subsequent 28 years. 

The primary difference here, IMO, is while we're out there trying to open things up, you are (along with ranting online) giving up and turning yourself over to big tech, which has proven time and time again that they are only willing to "cooperate" as long as they maintain branding control of the primary user experience and financial control of the primary revenue streams. I've been down that road time and time again and won't be so easily fooled a 13th time.

As far as the iAqualink nodeserver being a "toy" and doing nothing useful, I appreciate the fact that I can control my pool lights, spa, spillover, and sheers from Insteon keypads at multiple doors leading to my pool deck and have the states all stay in sync. My wife also enjoys that she can say "Alexa, turn on the spa for <name withheld>" and the ISY will not only put the Aqualink controller in spa mode and enable the spa heat, but will adjust the pool and spa lighting, as well as the landscape lighting according to the time of day AND play appropriate music through the outdoor speakers. These are the types of home automation scenarios that should be ubiquitous in 2020, IMO, and while Apple and Google are talking about taking us there soon with Matter, I like the fact that I've enjoyed this level of automation with my ISY for several years now. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Goose66

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

I truly believe competition in any form is good for the general public. This generally speaking pushes other laggard companies to finally innovate and do better.

Think every phone maker caught off guard by apple’s iPhone! Two of the largest phone makers in history (Motorola / Nokia) decimated by a computer company?!?

The problem today isn’t about competition it’s about companies insisting upon pushing a walled garden product, service, protocol.

Think any proprietary software or hardware in the wild today.

This time four years ago there was another thread about four new protocol standards from the likes of Samsh^t and others. None of them have taken off or gained market share regardless of who signed on like you constantly read about.

Why?!?

As it pertains to IP devices generally speaking it allows easy integration to existing infrastructure. The problem is nobody serious about security would consider such a thing. The market and the public attitude as it pertains to security & privacy has changed and people just don’t care to invest the time and resources to lock down their own network.

It only took the router makers 25 years to move away from using admin / admin!!

Then again when you read about every major institution from hospital, school, business, financial, government being hacked / held for ransom. All on the heels of half the Internet being taken down by DNS, DDOS, none of this registers on the public!

Gee making your entire home one giant network open to the public. Can’t see that being a epic fail eh?!?

The best thing to happen sometime in the near future is the entire internet shuts down for an entire month. Even this won’t stop the less than bright fools in adopting IP devices connected to the cloud!

At this juncture depending upon which market segment. There isn’t a lot of real competition or innovation just rebranding, colour, and lipstick to stand out.

Lastly, I’m not a fan of Elon Musk but have to say that he has single handily pushed innovation and competition in markets that never innovate!

I mean you literally have guy school every space agency in the world in making a self landing rocket??? Like the tens of millions of people around the world couldn’t do this 25 years ago???

Just shows you how lazy NASA and every other space agency has been in 50 years! Then you have his electric cars which every maker is trying to push out now to catch up?

Automakers = Lazy

Next you have tens of thousands of constellation of satellites to offer ISP, GPS?

Satellite Providers = Lazy

 

I wouldn't call  NASA lazy. 1- their budget comes from the govt and there are limitations to what they can spend and spend money on. They would not have been able to have half the amount of failures as Musk did before they would've been shut down. 2-You have alot more freedom when it's your money vs someone else's.  Lastly, he has 25 years of technology on his side that they didn't have access to. 25 years from now, we'll probably be able to say the same about how things are done now. 

The reason why you have a lack of innovation is because R&D is expensive. With this being a race to the bottom for prices, outside of major corporations- who has the money to truly innovate something?

With people being fickle, by the time you make it to market, the market probably has passed you by. But let's just say you're on time. In order to make your money back and make a profit for future development what will you have to charge? 15 bucks definitely isn't cutting it. So now you're charging 80 bucks for this great new thing only to watch your competitors outsell you with knockoff devices that they slapped their name on for 20 bucks. Sure, some people will buy your product but will enough do so long term?

[Teken]

I wouldn't call  NASA lazy. 1- their budget comes from the govt and there are limitations to what they can spend and spend money on. They would not have been able to have half the amount of failures as Musk did before they would've been shut down. 2-You have alot more freedom when it's your money vs someone else's.  Lastly, he has 25 years of technology on his side that they didn't have access to. 25 years from now, we'll probably be able to say the same about how things are done now. 
The reason why you have a lack of innovation is because R&D is expensive. With this being a race to the bottom for prices, outside of major corporations- who has the money to truly innovate something?
With people being fickle, by the time you make it to market, the market probably has passed you by. But let's just say you're on time. In order to make your money back and make a profit for future development what will you have to charge? 15 bucks definitely isn't cutting it. So now you're charging 80 bucks for this great new thing only to watch your competitors outsell you with knockoff devices that they slapped their name on for 20 bucks. Sure, some people will buy your product but will enough do so long term?

As it pertains to NASA or any space agency when the public is footing the bill and it’s endless piles of cash coming your way each and every year.

No, I don’t accept NASA or anyone else couldn’t have come up with a reusable self landing main stage rocket. It came down to once again people at the top who need to retire and just go away because they had pet projects or was driven by kick backs to line their own pockets!

NASA could have come up with three generations of self landing rockets more than 15 years ago.

Why?!?

Because every rocket engineer that made it happen came from NASA / Other to do the same at Space X!

Read any forum as it pertains to how and why this came to be under Space X vs NASA.

As it pertains to racing to the bottom just look at the space shuttle. Literally built and based on the lowest bid?!? I also agree R&D is expansive and history has proven failed products can make or break any company especially small ones. Let’s see what comes out in the next five years as it relates to HA.

Dollars to donuts more than 60% of the wares will be based on cloud first topology. BLE will continue to gain adoption, technical speed / distance, market share.

ZigBee will forever be left behind in the HA space while. Z-Wave continues to expand into various market segments regardless of how I feel about their protocol. They have their eyes on the prize and continue to iterate and update.

Sadly, you will not see LoRa technology adopted by any of the major vendors. Nor will you ever see self powered RF switches gain any traction in the world!

This simple, battery free, self generating technology should have been the gold standard long ago. Came down to poor marketing and lack of vision to get others to sign on and adopt!

[Michel Kohanim]

@bruceyeg,

Thank you for the details. Polisy already supports IPv6. So, if matter devices can communicate via IPv6 (through their edge router), then we don't need to install any Zigbee radio. And, to be 100% transparent:

1. Z-Wave is pushing their ZIP Gateway in 700 series. It's the same concept but it's just overly complex for a controller: you have to create a bridge between the app (that talks to USB) and your network and make everything talk IPv6. Just overly complex. If they want to use IP, then integration with existing IP networks should be seamless. i.e. Z-Wave USB stick (or edge router if you will) the sole purpose of which is to connect Z-Wave to IP

2. Zigbee/Matter/CHIP have the same overly complex nature. So, my preference is not to ever have to support any "bridge" hardware

For me, the Panacea would be node servers that communicate with Polisy over IP. How they talk amongst their minions, I prefer not knowing.

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

As it pertains to NASA or any space agency when the public is footing the bill and it’s endless piles of cash coming your way each and every year.

No, I don’t accept NASA or anyone else couldn’t have come up with a reusable self landing main stage rocket. It came down to once again people at the top who need to retire and just go away because they had pet projects or was driven by kick backs to line their own pockets!

NASA could have come up with three generations of self landing rockets more than 15 years ago.

Why?!?

Because every rocket engineer that made it happen came from NASA / Other to do the same at Space X!

Read any forum as it pertains to how and why this came to be under Space X vs NASA.

As it pertains to racing to the bottom just look at the space shuttle. Literally built and based on the lowest bid?!? I also agree R&D is expansive and history has proven failed products can make or break any company especially small ones. Let’s see what comes out in the next five years as it relates to HA.

Dollars to donuts more than 60% of the wares will be based on cloud first topology. BLE will continue to gain adoption, technical speed / distance, market share.

ZigBee will forever be left behind in the HA space while. Z-Wave continues to expand into various market segments regardless of how I feel about their protocol. They have their eyes on the prize and continue to iterate and update.

Sadly, you will not see LoRa technology adopted by any of the major vendors. Nor will you ever see self powered RF switches gain any traction in the world!

This simple, battery free, self generating technology should have been the gold standard long ago. Came down to poor marketing and lack of vision to get others to sign on and adopt!

There's a lot that goes into govt/sudo govt entities. The fact that NASA had/has to lobby for its funding means it had/has to deal with bureaucratic wish lists. One only had to look at how deadlocked our govt is on stuff the agree with to understand how that can cause issues with NASA. I'm not a rocket scientist nor have I worked for NASA for me to rant about people who are clearly alot smarter than i am. 

What I do know is from family and friends in govt and politicsaa and their stories of what it takes to get things done. Dies that mean NASA is perfect or  without fault. No! What it does let me know if that is much easier for private companies to achieve things that the govt can't or will take 20x longer to do. 

Zwave doesn't have eyes on any prize. If they did, you could shut off multiple sets of lights at once vs 1 at a time. You wouldn't need a database of how to change simple stuff, devices would talk to each other much faster, and you wouldn't need to spend all day researching products just to make sure you don't get the wrong thing. The list goes on. Sure, it's faster now and all the claims they make. But when you go from moving at a snails pace, any increase of speed will seem like a lot. When you start at the bottom, up is the only way to go. Their enhancements and innovations sounds great on paper but yet it still lags behind other protocols. It's only growing because it's cheap to get into. Buy from line from a factory and slap your name on it. That's why every product looks exactly alike. 

It's great that they have S2 security for their alarm systems. Let's be real, who uses it for HA? Slows down an already slow system even more so that's a no go. Personally I'd rather have Power G over zwave 500 or 700 series any day if i went with a wireless alarm system. 

In regards to LoRa and everything else you said, of course you won't see many devices use it. At this time, most would end up needing to create their own products from scratch to make use of them. Like i said, it's a race to the bottom when it comes to prices. Not many companies are going to be willing to lose money on great stuff that no one will buy due to cost. Even on here, look how many complain about a 50 dollar switch and run out to buy a 15 dollar replacement. It's that mindset that is stifling true innovation, not laziness. 

[Teken]

There's a lot that goes into govt/sudo govt entities. The fact that NASA had/has to lobby for its funding means it had/has to deal with bureaucratic wish lists. One only had to look at how deadlocked our govt is on stuff the agree with to understand how that can cause issues with NASA. I'm not a rocket scientist nor have I worked for NASA for me to rant about people who are clearly alot smarter than i am. 
What I do know is from family and friends in govt and politicsaa and their stories of what it takes to get things done. Dies that mean NASA is perfect or  without fault. No! What it does let me know if that is much easier for private companies to achieve things that the govt can't or will take 20x longer to do. 
Zwave doesn't have eyes on any prize. If they did, you could shut off multiple sets of lights at once vs 1 at a time. You wouldn't need a database of how to change simple stuff, devices would talk to each other much faster, and you wouldn't need to spend all day researching products just to make sure you don't get the wrong thing. The list goes on. Sure, it's faster now and all the claims they make. But when you go from moving at a snails pace, any increase of speed will seem like a lot. When you start at the bottom, up is the only way to go. Their enhancements and innovations sounds great on paper but yet it still lags behind other protocols. It's only growing because it's cheap to get into. Buy from line from a factory and slap your name on it. That's why every product looks exactly alike. 
It's great that they have S2 security for their alarm systems. Let's be real, who uses it for HA? Slows down an already slow system even more so that's a no go. Personally I'd rather have Power G over zwave 500 or 700 series any day if i went with a wireless alarm system. 
In regards to LoRa and everything else you said, of course you won't see many devices use it. At this time, most would end up needing to create their own products from scratch to make use of them. Like i said, it's a race to the bottom when it comes to prices. Not many companies are going to be willing to lose money on great stuff that no one will buy due to cost. Even on here, look how many complain about a 50 dollar switch and run out to buy a 15 dollar replacement. It's that mindset that is stifling true innovation, not laziness. 

Oh look at the negative Nancy here! Just sh^tting on Z-Wave like it’s going out of style.

Which I agree on all points made by you.

[Teken]

As it relates to cost this is true pertaining to $50 vs $15.00. I’m not opposed to paying $50.XX because Canadians already know paying $70-99.00 for the same damn thing!

What I’m opposed to is something that costs that much and doesn’t last at least ten years! Having spent a large portion of dead time in 2017-2021 reading all the space forums and talking to friends in the industry etc.

Lazy isn’t the correct phrase for NASA it’s zero focus and wasting time on things which are truly stupid and moronic. I mean it’s every year some imbecile is going on about water traces and so called life on Mars etc?!?

Who the f^ck cares if there was ever water on a red ball?? It’s not like it’s going to help anyone right now in any way. Instead you have idiots wasting billions to send yet another robot and a super expensive drone that doesn’t operate correctly?!?

The world have satellites that can see and measure almost anything from space. Why wouldn’t these yahoo’s send one to determine everything they need to know? Better yet drop a missile from orbit to determine everything under the freaking ground!

There are seven types of ground penetration radar / sensor arrays in use today. It can determine more than 300 basic to advanced data points.

You take the same technology and load it into a missile and let gravity take its course and drop hundreds around whatever planet / moon. Guess what you’re going to find out almost everything you wanted to know about that area!

Oh gee wiz guess who is going to use that freaking idea????

Not NASA, name any lazy space agency, but a private company???

So instead of spending billions abs billions never getting any real information besides stupid pictures and half aszz videos. Someone will get everything and more in one shot for billions less and have what - FACTS.

NASA not lazy just incompetently run and managed!

[asbril]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There's a lot that goes into govt/sudo govt entities. The fact that NASA had/has to lobby for its funding means it had/has to deal with bureaucratic wish lists. One only had to look at how deadlocked our govt is on stuff the agree with to understand how that can cause issues with NASA. I'm not a rocket scientist nor have I worked for NASA for me to rant about people who are clearly alot smarter than i am. 

What I do know is from family and friends in govt and politicsaa and their stories of what it takes to get things done. Dies that mean NASA is perfect or  without fault. No! What it does let me know if that is much easier for private companies to achieve things that the govt can't or will take 20x longer to do. 

Zwave doesn't have eyes on any prize. If they did, you could shut off multiple sets of lights at once vs 1 at a time. You wouldn't need a database of how to change simple stuff, devices would talk to each other much faster, and you wouldn't need to spend all day researching products just to make sure you don't get the wrong thing. The list goes on. Sure, it's faster now and all the claims they make. But when you go from moving at a snails pace, any increase of speed will seem like a lot. When you start at the bottom, up is the only way to go. Their enhancements and innovations sounds great on paper but yet it still lags behind other protocols. It's only growing because it's cheap to get into. Buy from line from a factory and slap your name on it. That's why every product looks exactly alike. 

It's great that they have S2 security for their alarm systems. Let's be real, who uses it for HA? Slows down an already slow system even more so that's a no go. Personally I'd rather have Power G over zwave 500 or 700 series any day if i went with a wireless alarm system. 

In regards to LoRa and everything else you said, of course you won't see many devices use it. At this time, most would end up needing to create their own products from scratch to make use of them. Like i said, it's a race to the bottom when it comes to prices. Not many companies are going to be willing to lose money on great stuff that no one will buy due to cost. Even on here, look how many complain about a 50 dollar switch and run out to buy a 15 dollar replacement. It's that mindset that is stifling true innovation, not laziness. 

Insteon vs Zwave =  Betamax vs VHS........ and now both were replaced by digital. The comparison makes sense.  The better product will disappear first and both will be replaced by something else.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

As it relates to cost this is true pertaining to $50 vs $15.00. I’m not opposed to paying $50.XX because Canadians already know paying $70-99.00 for the same damn thing!

What I’m opposed to is something that costs that much and doesn’t last at least ten years! Having spent a large portion of dead time in 2017-2021 reading all the space forums and talking to friends in the industry etc.

Lazy isn’t the correct phrase for NASA it’s zero focus and wasting time on things which are truly stupid and moronic. I mean it’s every year some imbecile is going on about water traces and so called life on Mars etc?!?

Who the f^ck cares if there was ever water on a red ball?? It’s not like it’s going to help anyone right now in any way. Instead you have idiots wasting billions to send yet another robot and a super expensive drone that doesn’t operate correctly?!?

The world have satellites that can see and measure almost anything from space. Why wouldn’t these yahoo’s send one to determine everything they need to know? Better yet drop a missile from orbit to determine everything under the freaking ground!

There are seven types of ground penetration radar / sensor arrays in use today. It can determine more than 300 basic to advanced data points.

You take the same technology and load it into a missile and let gravity take its course and drop hundreds around whatever planet / moon. Guess what you’re going to find out almost everything you wanted to know about that area!

Oh gee wiz guess who is going to use that freaking idea????

Not NASA, name any lazy space agency, but a private company???

So instead of spending billions abs billions never getting any real information besides stupid pictures and half aszz videos. Someone will get everything and more in one shot for billions less and have what - FACTS.

NASA not lazy just incompetently run and managed!

Yeah, it's a good thing you're not running a major agency like that. There's all sorts of issues wrong with every single thing you just said

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

Insteon vs Zwave =  Betamax vs VHS........ and now both were replaced by digital. The comparison makes sense.  The better product will disappear first and both will be replaced by something else.

Nailed it, history can be very repetitve.  Z-wave will linger on forever, much longer than Insteon.  Device cost is so low and market pentration is wide enough there will be some demand for a couple more decades.  Even if demand drops to just a trickle, a few manufacturers will kick out product to fill that low demand. 

The one difference, Z-wave continues to evolve and is improving with each iteration.  If that incremental improvement continues, they may be just one or two iterations away from being a very good technology IF they can work out just a couple of shortcomings.  

Come to think of it, I guess the same can be said for Insteon with its incremental improvement.  The brand got tarnished with their attempt at wide distribution a few years back.  In my view the name had to be changed with their desire to go to a wide distrubtion model.  They had to make a "break" from Insteon for a fresh launch to improve the odds of success with the updated technology and to keep the easy money coming in with the continued sales of the legacy Insteon line.  But, with the new improved version being launced (if it is improved), it may end up being a great HA option at some point.  I don't think version 1 of Nokia will be what this forum's users are looking for given Nokia's lack of desire to embrace power users, but version 2, if there is one, might be a winner.  On the surface, it looks like the tech has the potential to be markedly better than insteon.  So, are we just one or two iterations away from seeing the next great HA tech and the name is Nokia, a lineal descendand of Insteon?  Probably not but it is entirely possible and I will not be suprised if it happens.

I think both Z-wave and Insteon/Nokia both have the potential to be very good HA lines that can work for both low tech users and power users.  But, by the time that happens, our standards may have changed and what we fantasize about being "good" today will likely seem crude 10 years from now.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

Insteon vs Zwave =  Betamax vs VHS........ and now both were replaced by digital. The comparison makes sense.  The better product will disappear first and both will be replaced by something else.

I just don't think that Zigbee, Matter, or Wi-Fi have what it takes to become the "Digital" in your example so what will the something else end up being? Yet another new protocol maybe this time based on quantum entaglement? The old X-10 ultrasonic controller protocol ported over to IPv6?

[asbril]

3 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

ut, by the time that happens, our standards may have changed and what we fantasize about being "good" today will likely seem crude 10 years from now.

That is exactly my point.  Technology evolves so quickly that I am willing to bet that HA will be much different in 5 years. It may be new versions of Insteon and/or Zwave, Matter, or something different alltogether. 

I remember downloading, over dial-up with Compuserve, my first Mosaic browser in the mid-90's. It took more than  6 hours and if the line was interrupted, you had to start all over. I also remember, in the early 2000's  downloading music with Napster, first with dial-up and then with DSL.  I thought that downloading a song with DSL in only  minutes, was the optimum ! Now it takes seconds.

So what we like today with Insteon and/or Zwave will seem antiquities in a couple of years.

[DAlter01]

21 minutes ago, asbril said:

So what we like today with Insteon and/or Zwave will seem antiquities in a couple of years.

Might take more than a couple, maybe in 5 and in 10 for sure.

[Teken]

Yeah, it's a good thing you're not running a major agency like that. There's all sorts of issues wrong with every single thing you just said

If I was running it all of the same people who left NASA to go to Space X would still be there. Along with a third generation of reusable self landing main engine!

[larryllix]

27 minutes ago, Teken said:

If I was running it all of the same people who left NASA to go to Space X would still be there. Along with a third generation of reusable self landing main engine!

NASA'a funding was cut, once some president beat the Russians to the moon. Many rocket scientists state that single narcissism set NASA back 20 years in development. One of the main setbacks was the dropping of the X-15 program, being the precursor to the space shuttle units.

Musk didn't do anything on his own dime. Musk was gifted  $4.9 Billion USD for his imagination.