Dare I ask .......

[Jason Miller]

I've spent the last hour reading threads on this site about SmartHome and Insteon. Still, I find myself not sure on the path forward. This thread is an attempt, I hope, to selfishly help me understand a path forward. I have all Insteon Switches in my house for the past 8 years or so. Dated equipment. Slowly, things are failing. Tonight, a dimmer switch in the wall popped and smoked. All my access points are cooked. My 994i has z-wave (I added the little chip) and it powers 2 door locks and an outlet module.

I am not excited about the future of home automation and will not replace everything with smart switches. I am going to replace 90% with basic non smart switches and only want to convert a few at this point.

 

My primary goals of the system:

Control 10 light switches
Control 2 z-wave schlage door locks
Amazon Alexa control for voice

This all works today, but with a system that is starting to fail, I find it impossible to get replacements for (i.e. insteon switches).

So, if you were me, what route would you go? I am ok to replace everything and start from scratch as I understand the ISY994i is on a short life for future development.

Can of worms, I know.

[rorichmond]

I am in the same scenario, with the exception of having just moved. I had 25+ insteon switches in my last house. My new house is a clean slate and I am not sure what products to invest in. Watching this topic intently...

[midrar]

I think this is the future unfortunately. 
 

https://zigbeealliance.org/news_and_articles/chip-is-now-matter/

[simplextech]

3 hours ago, Jason Miller said:

So, if you were me, what route would you go? I am ok to replace everything and start from scratch as I understand the ISY994i is on a short life for future development.

What to go with depends.  Is Insteon going away?  Unlikely.  Are they slow to deliver.  Yup.  So if you want a lighting system that's been around a long time and will continue to be around for a VERY long time then go with Lutron.  Lutron did invent the dimmer after all.  You won't have appliance plugs (15A capable) unless you go with Radio Ra 2, but you can always use Z-Wave for those purposes.

Z-Wave sucks for lighting (My opinion, shared by many) but it's great for aux devices like power plugs and such.  If you have a decent controller and a good mesh then it's good for some sensors too depending on requirements.

The old ISY994i is long in the tooth and is getting a much needed update with the Polisy.  It takes time to port a system and work out all of the issues and make it as stable as the predecessor but it will get there.  I'm hoping with some much needed improvements along the way (string support!!!!, increased node name length, etc) you know little things

 

[Brian H]

If the 2443 Access Points are a revision 2.0 and above. They are built on the base 2413 PLM main board. Subject to the same power supply issues we see in the 2413S PLM. They can also be rebuilt with the power supply repair information.

The older ones where built on the older interface module. I imaging {but never did} you could change the caps in them and they may also work.

I do have extra Insteon modules. So for now I am OK but in the future. Not sure which way to go.

[Jason Miller]

9 hours ago, midrar said:

I think this is the future unfortunately. 
 

https://zigbeealliance.org/news_and_articles/chip-is-now-matter/

I read about this but struggled to find any details around timing. I get the sense it's not the immediate future and will take time for it. Thoughts?

[Jason Miller]

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

What to go with depends.  Is Insteon going away?  Unlikely.  Are they slow to deliver.  Yup.  So if you want a lighting system that's been around a long time and will continue to be around for a VERY long time then go with Lutron.  Lutron did invent the dimmer after all.  You won't have appliance plugs (15A capable) unless you go with Radio Ra 2, but you can always use Z-Wave for those purposes.

Z-Wave sucks for lighting (My opinion, shared by many) but it's great for aux devices like power plugs and such.  If you have a decent controller and a good mesh then it's good for some sensors too depending on requirements.

The old ISY994i is long in the tooth and is getting a much needed update with the Polisy.  It takes time to port a system and work out all of the issues and make it as stable as the predecessor but it will get there.  I'm hoping with some much needed improvements along the way (string support!!!!, increased node name length, etc) you know little things

 

My issue is, everything for Insteon seems to be "out of stock" for over a year. I get the sense more to the story exists than Covid manufacturing issues. Are lutron z-wave switches? All the ones I found were the "Caseta" brand and none were toggle switches. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks for the input.

[Jason Miller]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

If the 2443 Access Points are a revision 2.0 and above. They are built on the base 2413 PLM main board. Subject to the same power supply issues we see in the 2413S PLM. They can also be rebuilt with the power supply repair information.

The older ones where built on the older interface module. I imaging {but never did} you could change the caps in them and they may also work.

I do have extra Insteon modules. So for now I am OK but in the future. Not sure which way to go.

Agree. I could repair the broken stuff by relocating some switches and stuff, but I'm more concerned about the future. When I installed all this 8 years ago it felt dated ..... and with it all breaking ... I find myself unsure.

I am even considering wifi switches and such, using Amazon Alexa as the controller! Seems for a small setup, it may work, and let the legacy stuff slowly die and replace as required.

[upstatemike]

The real future is Tuya Smartlife. If you use a voice assistant you are already dependent on the cloud anyway so you might as well get Tuya Smartlife compatible stuff and stop agonizing over all the competing technologies.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Jason Miller said:

My issue is, everything for Insteon seems to be "out of stock" for over a year. I get the sense more to the story exists than Covid manufacturing issues. Are lutron z-wave switches? All the ones I found were the "Caseta" brand and none were toggle switches. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks for the input.

Lutron protocol seems to be a secret. I have found a dozen articles telling how other protocols and frequencies are no good but never anything disclosing what Caseta uses.

[larryllix]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

The real future is Tuya Smartlife. If you use a voice assistant you are already dependent on the cloud anyway so you might as well get Tuya Smartlife compatible stuff and stop agonizing over all the competing technologies.

Tuya uses a complex interactive protocol like HTTPS does. I am not sure the protocol is available to code writers and I have never seen a hack of it....yet. For remote control usage only..right on the money. For HA usage...maybe never.

[upstatemike]

50 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Lutron protocol seems to be a secret. I have found a dozen articles telling how other protocols and frequencies are no good but never anything disclosing what Caseta uses.

Caseta uses Lutron's proprietary "Clear Connect" protocol. Clear Connect Type A uses 434MHz. Clear Connect Type X uses 2.4GHz. I think Caseta uses type A.

[upstatemike]

55 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Tuya uses a complex interactive protocol like HTTPS does. I am not sure the protocol is available to code writers and I have never seen a hack of it....yet. For remote control usage only..right on the money. For HA usage...maybe never.

The Smartlife app will let you code all the automations you need. 

[simplextech]

7 hours ago, Jason Miller said:

Are lutron z-wave switches? All the ones I found were the "Caseta" brand and none were toggle switches. Am I missing something?

No Lutron is NOT Z-Wave.  Lutron uses their own proprietary protocol called Clear Connect.  This operates in a licensed spectrum range.  Lutron has a few family products they are Lutron Caseta (entry level), RA2 Select, Radio Ra 2 and HomeWorks (high end).

6 hours ago, larryllix said:

Lutron protocol seems to be a secret.

Secret?  All of the tech specifics are available on the Lutron site. 

5 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Caseta uses Lutron's proprietary "Clear Connect" protocol. Clear Connect Type A uses 434MHz. Clear Connect Type X uses 2.4GHz. I think Caseta uses type A.

No Clear Connect operates in the 2.4Ghz band.  Where are you pulling this from?

6 hours ago, upstatemike said:

The real future is Tuya Smartlife.

Oh now that's funny.  So the future is the cheapest branded garbage you can find on Amazon?  Sounds about right.  Tuya is made to make it easy for vendors to go to market quickly with a generic offering at the lowest possible price point.  They are horrible to work with from an integration stand point and expensive.  Not to mention nothing is local so if you don't have internet then it doesn't work.  Using a phone/tablet for turning things on is not "Home Automation" and neither are voice boxes.  They are just another "remote control".

[MrBill]

20 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Oh now that's funny. 

I wondered about that statement... so far I've been avoiding Tuya from things I'd read... thanks for reaffirming my thinking was not in error...

21 minutes ago, simplextech said:

They are just another "remote control".

 

[gdb]

I am watching this project to see where it goes:

https://www.home-assistant.io

I am not even close to jumping in there, but it has promise with both zwave and zigbee, as well as a growing number of integrations.

The platform can run on a raspberry Pi, or on their own hardware platform. This is the second generation of their hardware, the first is an Odroid model:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/nabu-casa/home-assistant-amber

One thing I like about it is, like the ISY, the processing is happening in your house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrBill]

15 minutes ago, gdb said:

I am watching this project to see where it goes:

https://www.home-assistant.io

I am not even close to jumping in there, but it has promise with both zwave and zigbee, as well as a growing number of integrations.

The platform can run on a raspberry Pi, or on their own hardware platform. This is the second generation of their hardware, the first is an Odroid model:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/nabu-casa/home-assistant-amber

One thing I like about it is, like the ISY, the processing is happening in your house.

There is actually an entire Home Assistant Sub-forum within this forum.  Also one of the many integration for HA is the Universal Devices ISY994 core integration.  Many of us here are using it already.

 

[gdb]

Thank you MrBill! I had never scrolled down that far to see it. I'll try to catch up ;-)

[lilyoyo1]

As soon as the last thread dies a new one pops up starting the whole debate all over again. 

What technology a person chooses for the future is irrelevant since anything can take over at anytime. Figure out what controller you want to use and go with products that work with it.

Reality is that there are no perfect standards. Every single one has their own pros and cons. It's really up to the individual to decide what matters most to them and what fits into what they need. While asking on forums is nice, all you'll end up getting is what fits each individual that responds. 

Take myself for example. Im all about simplicity, aesthetics, and experience. Because of that, the only 3 protocols I'd use are insteon, Control 4, and Radio Ra2. 

While there are some aesthetically pleasing zwave switches, zwave still misses the mark on simplicity and experience by a large amount making it a non starter for me. 

Insteon does meet all 3 of my minimum criteria so they're part of my list. While the old line has grown long in the tooth on design, the new is infinitely better looking. In addition to looks, the feel and response is top notch. In regards to simplicity, all devices can be controllers, responders, give status, etc. There's no guessing game or parameters to concern yourself with. Everything just works with each other. 

If insteon were to shut down in the next 5 years, my stuff would still be working. Their existence changes nothing about my home. If it shits down in 10. So what!!! Same thing. My house will still work and when it stops, it's cheap enough that I'm ok with swapping them out for something else.

With Ra2, their protocol is second to none. If set up properly, they'll work forever without fail. While looks are subjective for their basic switches, they do have others that look really good. While Ra2 is limited programming wise, the Isy changes that (after all we're talking about using the Isy). The Ra2 lighting experience is amazing (as it should be since Lutron invented the dimmer). 

The icing on the cake is that it can be used with other controllers as well so you still have other options in the future. The downside is price. Depending on needs, the free course may be enough. If not, the advanced course costs. However, it's cheaper to spend the 650 or so that it costs than it is to pay someone to do it for you. Still device cost and training is an additional expense that limits most people. 

For me, C4 has the aesthetics, it's simple to program, and the experience is amazing as well (though not as amazing as Lutron). In addition, it's ability to be integrated with A/V naturally, makes it even better.

Just like RA2, the downside is that it's installer only. 

Tuya and other wifi devices should be a non-starter for any serious HA enthusiast. All of those cheap things are extremely limited long term due to lack of scalability and flexibility.

The power of any system resides in the controller not the devices so that does help with tuya and other wifi based devices but they can only do so much. 

I would recommend looking at all the options the Isy supports (if this is the controller of choice) and research each one's pros and cons to see what fits your needs

 

 

[upstatemike]

21 hours ago, simplextech said:

No Clear Connect operates in the 2.4Ghz band.  Where are you pulling this from?

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/Clear_Connect_Technology_whitepaper.pdf

 

[larryllix]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/Clear_Connect_Technology_whitepaper.pdf

 

I see lots of brag and negative propaganda of everything else on the Lutron website, but no actual specification of any level of their protocol, only theoretical and proposed concepts as whitepapers are designed to do.

I see a firm "we are considering 434 MHz" but no commitment. Anybody have actual  links to real specs?

[simplextech]

56 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/Clear_Connect_Technology_whitepaper.pdf

 

Quote

Highly optimized for
advanced lighting control, Type
X launched alongside all-new
intelligent light sources by Ketra.

I will stand corrected with your source of the Type X Clea Connect, however it's not for any of the Lutron control Systems but it is their branding of a implementation they acquired with the Ketra brand of lighting (bulbs and fixtures).  Ketra integration is only available with HomeWorks systems at this point as well.

[simplextech]

51 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I see a firm "we are considering 434 MHz" but no commitment. Anybody have actual  links to real specs?

Just gonna ask the "why" question.  Why do you need, want or care about the RF specs?  It's a proprietary licensed RF implementation.  Nobody else is ever going to implement it especially after the Wink fiasco.  I really doubt Lutron will EVER release the specs and allow anyone else to implement it.

The flip side is that the controller API is widely available and open or rather it has been with the Lutron Integration Protocol known to most as the "telnet interface".  This has allowed Lutron integration to all major control systems and lots of DIY integrations.

Lutron is moving away from telnet and using SSH in their LEAP implementation for system integration.  Access to the LEAP integration currently has been restricted to partners for implementation.  I know RTI, Control4 have implemented it for the HomeWorks QSX processors.  LEAP is not available on the Radio Ra 2 platform yet but I suspect it will be on the upcoming refresh.

[Teken]

Just gonna ask the "why" question.  Why do you need, want or care about the RF specs?  It's a proprietary licensed RF implementation.  Nobody else is ever going to implement it especially after the Wink fiasco.  I really doubt Lutron will EVER release the specs and allow anyone else to implement it.
The flip side is that the controller API is widely available and open or rather it has been with the Lutron Integration Protocol known to most as the "telnet interface".  This has allowed Lutron integration to all major control systems and lots of DIY integrations.
Lutron is moving away from telnet and using SSH in their LEAP implementation for system integration.  Access to the LEAP integration currently has been restricted to partners for implementation.  I know RTI, Control4 have implemented it for the HomeWorks QSX processors.  LEAP is not available on the Radio Ra 2 platform yet but I suspect it will be on the upcoming refresh.

It’s been a while refresh my memory about Wink?

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

It’s been a while refresh my memory about Wink?

Pretty app based interface.  They are the first and only 3rd party that I know of that was ever able to license ClearConnect from Lutron for support of Caseta devices.

I think Wink is still limping along but they lost a lot of customers when they switched to a monthly usage fee.  I haven't heard much about them in the last year or so though.