Motion Sensor jumper settings and version in ISY

[tome]

I got a couple 2420M motion sensors (REV2.0) and have a question about the jumper settings and how the 2420M appears in the ISY. I would like to get the settings right before I mount them as they won't be in a location that will be easy to get to.

 

When I added it to the ISY is says v.00. Is this normal?

 

No questions about these two...

Jumper 1 is Sensitivity

Jumper 2 is Disable LED

 

Jumper 3 is Night-Only

Since the ISY can control things is there a reason to enable this? I read a thread where someone said battery life is actually worse in Night-Only mode (unless of course SH changed something in V2.0)

 

Jumper 4 is On-Only

I don't see a reason that I would want to set On-Only, again since the ISY can be programmed to deal with the notifications, it seems like I may want Off, or not, but having it enabled is good. Also, in On-Only if someone stays in the area and I turn the lights out based on time someone might get left in the dark. With Off enabled I can check to see if Off came before turning the lights off...Yes?

 

I guess battery life may be saved if it is On-Only - is that the only reason to use it?

 

Jumper 5 is Remote (Software) Management

Can the ISY manage the 2420M remotely? If so, is there a reason NOT to enable software management?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi tome,

 

As far as version, yes it's correct since the Motion Sensor does not provide us with its version.

 

My only comment is remote programming: every time you do anything with your MS on ISY, you are using remote programming. I do not recommend turning this feature off unless you are no longer going to modify the scene settings for your MS.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[tome]

Hi tome,

 

As far as version, yes it's correct since the Motion Sensor does not provide us with its version.

 

My only comment is remote programming: every time you do anything with your MS on ISY, you are using remote programming. I do not recommend turning this feature off unless you are no longer going to modify the scene settings for your MS.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I thought it interesting that it comes with Remote Software Management disabled.

[intellihome]

Jumper 4 is On-Only

I don't see a reason that I would want to set On-Only, again since the ISY can be programmed to deal with the notifications, it seems like I may want Off, or not, but having it enabled is good. Also, in On-Only if someone stays in the area and I turn the lights out based on time someone might get left in the dark. With Off enabled I can check to see if Off came before turning the lights off...Yes?

 

I guess battery life may be saved if it is On-Only - is that the only reason to use it?

 

tome,

 

The On-only is a nice feature, especially if you are going to leave it to the ISY to turn the lights Off based on your criteria.

 

What's nice about the MS is that even though you set it for On only, it still does the 1 minute count down from the last time it saw motion. During this count down it will not retrigger an On command. An example would be when you are leaving the area, you can flip your switch Off and the MS will not turn the lights right back ON while your still in the area (walking past the MS while exiting). With On Only, you will never be left in the dark because you were in an area outside the MS range or were very still for the countdown.

[tome]

What's nice about the MS is that even though you set it for On only, it still does the 1 minute count down from the last time it saw motion. During this count down it will not retrigger an On command. An example would be when you are leaving the area, you can flip your switch Off and the MS will not turn the lights right back ON while your still in the area (walking past the MS while exiting).

 

I see the advantage here but, this could also be handled by ignoring motion after switch is turned Off for a time, right?

 

With On Only, you will never be left in the dark because you were in an area outside the MS range or were very still for the countdown.

 

This I don't understand. Let's say I have a program that when motion is sensed, turns on my lights. It leaves them on for, say 5 minutes and then shuts them off. If I used On-Only, the lights will go out after 5 minutes even if I am still in the area. It will send an On again, but they will go off, then come on. That doesn't seem desirable. With On/Off, I can keep them on 5 minutes or when I get an Off command, which ever is later. So, the lights would never go off while I was in the area. Is my logic broken?

[MikeB]

I see the advantage here but, this could also be handled by ignoring motion after switch is turned Off for a time, right?

 

This would not work because the motion sensor goes into a sleep mode until it needs to send the next command. It is an INSTEON controller, but not a responder - so it has no idea that you turned the switch off.

[intellihome]

I see the advantage here but, this could also be handled by ignoring motion after switch is turned Off for a time, right?

 

Keep in mind the MS link to the lights is independant from the MS to an ISY program. If the lights are linked to the MS then they will come on regardless of an ISY program and if an ISY program shuts the lights Off, the MS will turn them back on if your still in the area.

 

This I don't understand. Let's say I have a program that when motion is sensed, turns on my lights. It leaves them on for, say 5 minutes and then shuts them off. If I used On-Only, the lights will go out after 5 minutes even if I am still in the area. It will send an On again, but they will go off, then come on. That doesn't seem desirable. With On/Off, I can keep them on 5 minutes or when I get an Off command, which ever is later. So, the lights would never go off while I was in the area. Is my logic broken?

 

As I understand it, your program will turn off the lights after 5 minutes regardless of the jumper setting on the MS for On-only.

 

It sounds to me you don't need a program at all. Just the MS with the jumper set to ON/OFF.

 

In my application, my basement is huge with a lot of areas that the MS will not "see" me. So I set the MS for On-only and use my switch to turn the lights Off on my way out.

[tome]

As I understand it, your program will turn off the lights after 5 minutes regardless of the jumper setting on the MS for On-only.

 

It sounds to me you don't need a program at all. Just the MS with the jumper set to ON/OFF.

 

In my application, my basement is huge with a lot of areas that the MS will not "see" me. So I set the MS for On-only and use my switch to turn the lights Off on my way out.

 

Yes, I see what you mean now. Thanks!

[tome]

I asked:

 

Jumper 5 is Remote (Software) Management

Can the ISY manage the 2420M remotely? If so, is there a reason NOT to enable software management?

 

And Michel responded:

 

Hi tome,

 

As far as version, yes it's correct since the Motion Sensor does not provide us with its version.

 

My only comment is remote programming: every time you do anything with your MS on ISY, you are using remote programming. I do not recommend turning this feature off unless you are no longer going to modify the scene settings for your MS.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I couldn't for the life of me figure out why setting On-Only mode (Jumper 4) didn't seem to make any difference to the updates I was seeing from the MS on the ISY. It turns out that Jumper 5 causes (at least) Jumper 4 to be ignored. If I put Jumper 5 off, in other words set NO Remote Software Management, I can control On-Only using Jumper 4. If I enable Remote Software Management, then Jumper 4 is ignored and Off is always sent.

 

Also, having Jumper 5 off or disabled, does NOT prevent the ISY from setting the 3 variables it knows about (Timeout, LED brightness, and Dark sensitivity). But the ISY has no way to control the other settings in software that I can see.

 

Perhaps Smarthome knows how to set these parameters (those controlled by Jumpers 1,2,3 & 4) in software if Jumper 5 is enabled? I can't understand the behavior if not...

[brad77]

What's nice about the MS is that even though you set it for On only, it still does the 1 minute count down from the last time it saw motion. During this count down it will not retrigger an On command.

I wish that there was a jumper for this. The problem I've found with it is that while it doesn't trigger another on command during the countdown, it extends the timeout period each time it detects motion. Consider the following:

1. 1. MS is in on-only mode with 1 minute timeout.
   2. ISY program responds to MS sensor detection and turn off lights after 5 minutes.
   3. Motion triggered, light turns on, both MS and ISY countdown begins.
   4. Motion continues in monitored area for over 5 minutes. MS keeps resetting its timer each time it sees motion. As a result, the MS never sends another on command that ISY can hear.
   5. ISY timeout expires, leaving person in the dark.

Because of this, I do not use the ISY to manage my MS timeout periods.

[jasonl99]

What's nice about the MS is that even though you set it for On only, it still does the 1 minute count down from the last time it saw motion. During this count down it will not retrigger an On command.

I wish that there was a jumper for this. The problem I've found with it is that while it doesn't trigger another on command during the countdown, it extends the timeout period each time it detects motion. Consider the following:

1. 1. MS is in on-only mode with 1 minute timeout.
   2. ISY program responds to MS sensor detection and turn off lights after 5 minutes.
   3. Motion triggered, light turns on, both MS and ISY countdown begins.
   4. Motion continues in monitored area for over 5 minutes. MS keeps resetting its timer each time it sees motion. As a result, the MS never sends another on command that ISY can hear.
   5. ISY timeout expires, leaving person in the dark.

Because of this, I do not use the ISY to manage my MS timeout periods.

 

I absolutely make use of the OFF command, and I'm curious what I'm missing here. My programming may be more complex than it needs to be, but I think its a lot more flexible. I do not have any of the motion sensors linked directly to lights.

 

I have two motion sensors upstairs. If either of these senses motion, I want to keep the "ambiance" lighting on during the evening hours. So I have several programs for occupancy.

 

The first is upstairs Motion:

 

If
       Status  'Motion Detector Kitchen' is On
    Or Status  'Motion Detector Living Rm' is On

Then
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Notice that I am using Status and not Control. So if either status is "ON" then there is motion upstairs.

 

The next program is called "Upstairs Occupied" and it looks like this:

 

If
            Program 'Upstairs Motion' is True
         Or From    Last Run Time for 'Upstairs Motion'
            For      15 minutes 

Then
Else

 

You'll notice that I can now set my timeout based on the last time EITHER motion sensor turned off. So if I want them to turn off right away (when the "OFF" command comes) I simply set the "For 15 minutes" to a lower value (1 second, for example).

 

Finally, the program that actually turns the lights on...

 

If
       Program 'Upstairs Occupied' is True
   And Program 'Evening' is True

Then
       Set Scene 'Sunset Lights' On

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

... and off

 

If
       Program 'Upstairs Occupied' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Sunset Lights' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Ok, there is one more program - "Evening" which part of a group of "Time Variables" that I use to make things easier to manage. The "Evening" program can be something as simple as "From Susnet -15 minutes to 11:30 PM.

 

After a few weeks of tweaking, this approach has worked well for me.

[tome]

I absolutely make use of the OFF command, and I'm curious what I'm missing here. My programming may be more complex than it needs to be, but I think its a lot more flexible. I do not have any of the motion sensors linked directly to lights.

 

I like your approach. Out of curiosity, what is your Timeout set to?

Also, what are your jumper settings on the MS?

[brad77]

Jason-

 

It sounds like your approach is working great for you. Please don't take my comments as suggesting that you should do something different. There was a bit of discussion earlier about setting the unit to ON-only mode to save battery as it seems to eat batteries and the low-battery indicator doesn't seem to work reliably. I personally tried this and after a bit of testing discovered what I mentioned in my previous post, which basically made it cumbersome for me to use the ISY to turn the lights off. Additionally, by switching the sensor to ON-only mode, the ISY never changes the sensor status as it no longer broadcasts a message when the motion timeout has expired.

 

I guess one person's feature is another person's bug in this case.

 

Oh, and I realize that it isn't a bug...I'm just being facetious.

 

On a side note, I prefer to have my MS linked to lights as I find the delay to be too long when the ISY handles the task, but that's just my personal preference.

[jasonl99]

I absolutely make use of the OFF command, and I'm curious what I'm missing here. My programming may be more complex than it needs to be, but I think its a lot more flexible. I do not have any of the motion sensors linked directly to lights.

 

I like your approach. Out of curiosity, what is your Timeout set to?

Also, what are your jumper settings on the MS?

 

Thanks! I wanted to be able to capture any motion at any time of day and do things with it (lights, notifications, etc).

 

The timeout is set at 5 minutes, day & night both operational, and ON & OFF commands both set.

[jasonl99]

Jason-

 

It sounds like your approach is working great for you. Please don't take my comments as suggesting that you should do something different. There was a bit of discussion earlier about setting the unit to ON-only mode to save battery as it seems to eat batteries and the low-battery indicator doesn't seem to work reliably. I personally tried this and after a bit of testing discovered what I mentioned in my previous post, which basically made it cumbersome for me to use the ISY to turn the lights off. Additionally, by switching the sensor to ON-only mode, the ISY never changes the sensor status as it no longer broadcasts a message when the motion timeout has expired.

 

I guess one person's feature is another person's bug in this case.

 

Oh, and I realize that it isn't a bug...I'm just being facetious.

 

On a side note, I prefer to have my MS linked to lights as I find the delay to be too long when the ISY handles the task, but that's just my personal preference.

 

Brad, I certainly understand! I think we are using the motion sensors differently. You are using them as a quick use of lights, and I'm using them more as a "my house is aware of me" thing. There are certainly two different applications.

 

I don't find the ISY99 delay to be too bad in this case because they lights only really go off when we are not home. Opening any door triggers one of the sensors, and by the time I'm in and have my shoes off, the lights are on and ready. Of course my cats & dog also mean the lights are on frequently anyway

 

I did increase the timeout (as I indicated in the post just before this one) to five minutes to help with battery life. But I thought there was very little savings by turning off the OFF command.

 

Your command about the unreliability of the low batter indicator made me realize something. I can write a couple of programs that notify me if more than x hours has passed without turning on (for example, 24 hours). That would be another indicator of a low battery.

[tome]

The timeout is set at 5 minutes, day & night both operational, and ON & OFF commands both set.

 

And what about jumper 5?

Thanks

Tome

[tome]

The next program is called "Upstairs Occupied" and it looks like this:

 

If
            Program 'Upstairs Motion' is True
         Or From    Last Run Time for 'Upstairs Motion'
            For      15 minutes 

Then
Else

 

You'll notice that I can now set my timeout based on the last time EITHER motion sensor turned off. So if I want them to turn off right away (when the "OFF" command comes) I simply set the "For 15 minutes" to a lower value (1 second, for example).

 

Ok, so to see if I understand what is going on (and to see if you understand what is going on )...

 

You can set the timeout ONLY to be as short as the Off timeout on the MS, right? That is, if you set the 'For 15 minutes' to 'For 1 Second', the lights will go out at 5 minutes (which is what you have your MS timeout configured for) +1 second. You can configure it any number of seconds/minutes/hours longer then 5 minutes but not shorter, am I right?

 

... and off

 

If
       Program 'Upstairs Occupied' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Sunset Lights' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

With the off program above, anytime (day or evening) someone is in the room you will be sending Off commands for the scene every time the MS is tripped then times out, won't you?

 

Tome

[jasonl99]

The next program is called "Upstairs Occupied" and it looks like this:

 

If
            Program 'Upstairs Motion' is True
         Or From    Last Run Time for 'Upstairs Motion'
            For      15 minutes 

Then
Else

 

 

Ok, so to see if I understand what is going on (and to see if you understand what is going on )...

 

You can set the timeout ONLY to be as short as the Off timeout on the MS, right? That is, if you set the 'For 15 minutes' to 'For 1 Second', the lights will go out at 5 minutes (which is what you have your MS timeout configured for) +1 second. You can configure it any number of seconds/minutes/hours longer then 5 minutes but not shorter, am I right?

 

 

Yep, that's exactly it.

 

... and off

 

If
       Program 'Upstairs Occupied' is False

Then
       Set Scene 'Sunset Lights' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

With the off program above, anytime (day or evening) someone is in the room you will be sending Off commands for the scene every time the MS is tripped then times out, won't you?

 

Remember, the "Upstairs Occupied" program isn't motion - it's 15 minutes (in my case) after the last motion. But yes, it does send the off commands even during the day. But I figured that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

Incidentally you had asked about Jumper 5 - that's remote management, right? I have it set to "On." I don't know that it matters one way or another.

[tome]

Remember, the "Upstairs Occupied" program isn't motion - it's 15 minutes (in my case) after the last motion.

 

I believe it is actually 15 minutes after the MS has sent the Off command, or 20 minutes minimum since last motion, because the Off command causes 'Last Run Time' to increment.

 

But yes, it does send the off commands even during the day. But I figured that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

Gotcha. I guess you could add the 'And Program Evening is True ' to limit it to evening only.

 

Incidentally you had asked about Jumper 5 - that's remote management, right? I have it set to "On." I don't know that it matters one way or another.

 

Thanks for the info. From a little bit of playing around, I don't think it makes any difference to the 3 variables that the ISY is able to control. My speculation is that Smarthome with Houselinc is able to manage all the other jumper settings based on the setting of jumper 5, but the ISY isn't able to (yet?).

 

Tome