Insteon Inventory

[Techman]

The only notable items currently left in the Smarthome inventory are the 6 and 8 button KLP dimmers and the fan module

The USB PLM, all switches and outlets are showing as "sold out"

 

 

 

[Brian H]

Thank you for the information.

Not very good news on them staying in the Insteon business.

[Techman]

and the Nokia line is still unavailable, either they have a major supply line issue, or it's a sinking ship. The most disconcerting item is their lack of outreach to their customer base.

[upstatemike]

No PLMs, No Hubs, No Wireless USB interface. No way for new customers to use the products except manual linking... except nothing left to link anyway apart from Keypadlincs. How long can any company keep going with nothing to sell to new customers? Would anybody even buy out their patents at this point?

[ase]

B&H is filling orders on demand and insteon's Amazon store is still filling orders for several products. Smartenit.com still has usb sticks. While the product pool is very tight, it isn't gone just quite yet.

As far as someone buying their patents, I have no doubt someone would. My thought would actually be Foxconn, they could integrate it into belkin. Imagine wemo with insteon on board, would be very powerful, an IP aware insteon network.... 

Another company that comes to mind that has shown interest in home automation, but doesn't have a platform right now is logitech. They keep dipping their toe in, I think insteon would allow them to dive in.

[larryllix]

IMHO, it is likely too late for Insteon. After spewing the reverse marketing garbage we have already seen,  they will only have newbies with no HA history behind them buying their products.

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, ase said:

Another company that comes to mind that has shown interest in home automation, but doesn't have a platform right now is logitech. They keep dipping their toe in, I think insteon would allow them to dive in.

Maybe they can do the same thing for Insteon in Home Automation as they did for the Slim Devices Squeezebox in the Digital Music Player space.

[ase]

IDK, I think their IP is just a bit too valuable to go to some newbie. Personally I think/hope that they will licence the IP out and allow for several companies to build insteon compatible devices. My wet dream scenario is that they open source it and let a community take it over from their it could become a standard that could be made by anyone kind of like z-wave. That of course would never happen, but one can dream. Well worst case is no one buys the IP and they liquidate. This may lead to reverse engineering that could bring it back as an Open Source project. I guess we will see. 

[larryllix]

Smarthome and now Insteon seems to have been on a self-destruct mission since just a few years after creation. Nobody can figure out why but one thing has become very clear...

...they (Insteon)will either not listen to or take advice from anybody, or it is being done purposely.

My thoughts is somebody has been behind this idea as a common denominator, throughout three figureheads, that were reported to be in control for the public, or legal image.

I really doubt we will ever see open source or released to the public. Somebody wants it dead to stay.

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[upstatemike]

Z-Wave Long Range (800 chip) eliminates the Insteon PLC advantage of not needing to "build out" a mesh to get coverage in a remote location.

Z-Wave will support Matter so Google and Amazon won't feel a need to kill it. I don't recall seeing anything about Insteon supporting Matter.

Z-Wave supports direct association (while Zigbee does not) so it is a pretty easy transition from Insteon.

Z-Wave has a wide variety of niche devices that protocols like C4 and RadioRA do not and Insteon no longer does.

I think it is "game over" for Insteon and long live Z-Wave for the next few years at least. Even if somebody bought the Smartlabs patents I don't see them doing much more with it than Nokia is trying to do... a small number of entry level devices with no plans to cater to larger or more complex installations.

[PatPend]

Insteon is becoming the new Autelis - fading into the sunset.

[Michel Kohanim]

I have so much to say, alas, not much positive. It's been 15 years of continuous nightmare with this company: from late payments every time (average of 2 months late), blaming us for things that didn't work (SwitchLinc v35, all on/off, dim/brighten still does not work), having to reverse engineering (MSII, IRLinc, SeriaLinc ...), using ISY-Killer code name for their hubs (they tried it 7 times), not letting us build PLMs (because they were going to come up with i3 and after we spent so much money on redesigning it ... the capacitor issue is actually what we discovered and told them to change during our design), and then the new app by their superstar app developer which never came about, and then complete void and lack of communications. The only bright stars in this darkness were a few heroes who worked there and kept us sane. I salute them, thank them, and wish them the very very very best in life.

I am just glad we do not depend on them anymore. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Z-Wave Long Range (800 chip) eliminates the Insteon PLC advantage of not needing to "build out" a mesh to get coverage in a remote location.

Z-Wave will support Matter so Google and Amazon won't feel a need to kill it. I don't recall seeing anything about Insteon supporting Matter.

Z-Wave supports direct association (while Zigbee does not) so it is a pretty easy transition from Insteon.

Z-Wave has a wide variety of niche devices that protocols like C4 and RadioRA do not and Insteon no longer does.

I think it is "game over" for Insteon and long live Z-Wave for the next few years at least. Even if somebody bought the Smartlabs patents I don't see them doing much more with it than Nokia is trying to do... a small number of entry level devices with no plans to cater to larger or more complex installations.

Not necessarily on most points. The additional range will help in situations of open floor plans and open air. Even with Power G wireless alarm sensors, i've seen people need repeaters in 4000 square foot homes due to the sensors not being able to reach the panel. It'll still come down to what it always does. The environment its used in. 

Zwave's direct association is a joke. Max is 4-5 devices depending on whats used. Also must be at the same security level. Devices turned on via associations also do not report status to the hub. Depending on programming, this could limit a person. Its fine for multiway setups such as hallways but definitely not a whole house solution the way insteon is. 

Comparing zwave to C4 and Radio Ra is like comparing a Honda to a Bentley. They do the same thing- Lutron and C4 just looks and works a hell of alot better and smoother in action.

Here's where you should brush up on your knowledge. Depending on what you call niche devices, you can have the same with Ra and C4. Not only can you add zwave devices to a C4 controller (has a zwave module), if you look at what C4 CAN integrate with, you'd realize its zwave who's extremely limited. The 3rd party drivers allows you to integrate with pool controllers, Cameras, alarm systems (Elk, DSC, Qolsys, etc), along with the obvious stuff such as access control and AV.

Due to the nature of the product, Ra really shouldnt be included in any automation discussions. Ra was designed to be a lighting and shade control system. Not necessarily an automation system. Lutron made it so that it can easily integrate with other stuff for those who desire automation. Since Ra does work with C4, by extension, you have the same  capabilities as C4.

Most companies do not cater to complex installations. Even with zwave, most company's have the same exact product line. A dimmer, a relay switch, plug in modules, and sensors. There are a couple of companies with niche devices as well such as aeotech and Fibaro. When I look at the number of niche product lines out there with zwave, its much smaller than it used to be and will probably shrink even more over time.

[larryllix]

Z-Wave Long Range (800 chip) eliminates the Insteon PLC advantage of not needing to "build out" a mesh to get coverage in a remote location.
Z-Wave will support Matter so Google and Amazon won't feel a need to kill it. I don't recall seeing anything about Insteon supporting Matter.
Z-Wave supports direct association (while Zigbee does not) so it is a pretty easy transition from Insteon.
Z-Wave has a wide variety of niche devices that protocols like C4 and RadioRA do not and Insteon no longer does.
I think it is "game over" for Insteon and long live Z-Wave for the next few years at least. Even if somebody bought the Smartlabs patents I don't see them doing much more with it than Nokia is trying to do... a small number of entry level devices with no plans to cater to larger or more complex installations.

Yeah and zwave has many pricing levels also...from the $10 device right up to top notch devices for higher prices.

Again, likely not the best quality for everything, but the most popular, may make it the best protocol we have seen yet.

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[Techman]

5 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I have so much to say, alas, not much positive. It's been 15 years of continuous nightmare with this company: from late payments every time (average of 2 months late), blaming us for things that didn't work (SwitchLinc v35, all on/off, dim/brighten still does not work), having to reverse engineering (MSII, IRLinc, SeriaLinc ...), using ISY-Killer code name for their hubs (they tried it 7 times), not letting us build PLMs (because they were going to come up with i3 and after we spent so much money on redesigning it ... the capacitor issue is actually what we discovered and told them to change during our design), and then the new app by their superstar app developer which never came about, and then complete void and lack of communications. The only bright stars in this darkness were a few heroes who worked there and kept us sane. I salute them, thank them, and wish them the very very very best in life.

I am just glad we do not depend on them anymore. 

With kind regards,
Michel

So Michel, where does this leave those of us that have significant Insteon installations?  Can or will the PLM be reversed engineered?  Based on their lack of outreach and public relations I'm assuming that investor's funds bought the Company so if the current management runs it into the ground the only loss will be their friends and investors that invested in the Company.  

Sadly, it seems that the bright "stars" and "heros" are long gone, at least the ones I used to speak with. 

[lilyoyo1]

49 minutes ago, Techman said:

So Michel, where does this leave those of us that have significant Insteon installations?  Can or will the PLM be reversed engineered?  Based on their lack of outreach and public relations I'm assuming that investor's funds bought the Company so if the current management runs it into the ground the only loss will be their friends and investors that invested in the Company.  

Sadly, it seems that the bright "stars" and "heros" are long gone, at least the ones I used to speak with. 

Not much UDI can do. I doubt the plm can be reversed engineered and bought to market without infringing on insteon patents and copyrights.

I think the most anyone can do is start looking at other alternatives to replace their system with should theirs fail/start failing so they arent doing last minute scrambling should the worse come to fruition (I hope soon so we can move on)

[Michel Kohanim]

@Techman,

We don't have to reverse engineer the PLM. We already designed it, built 10 (my home is running on one and the lab's polisy is running it too). Then, they decided that they were not going to sell us the INSTEON chips (some RF chip with their firmware). If anyone can convince them to let us buy the chips, and if there's enough demand, we can make some. 

On the other hand, what are we going to do when switches die (my kitchen's been dead for a while and waiting for some off time to move it to Lutron because it's no longer available).

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

45 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Techman,

We don't have to reverse engineer the PLM. We already designed it, built 10 (my home is running on one and the lab's polisy is running it too). Then, they decided that they were not going to sell us the INSTEON chips (some RF chip with their firmware). If anyone can convince them to let us buy the chips, and if there's enough demand, we can make some. 

On the other hand, what are we going to do when switches die (my kitchen's been dead for a while and waiting for some off time to move it to Lutron because it's no longer available).

With kind regards,
Michel

Make sure you move it to Ra3. Its only a few weeks away

[Techman]

33 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Techman,

We don't have to reverse engineer the PLM. We already designed it, built 10 (my home is running on one and the lab's polisy is running it too). Then, they decided that they were not going to sell us the INSTEON chips (some RF chip with their firmware). If anyone can convince them to let us buy the chips, and if there's enough demand, we can make some. 

On the other hand, what are we going to do when switches die (my kitchen's been dead for a while and waiting for some off time to move it to Lutron because it's no longer available.

With kind regards,
Michel

It's difficult to try to convince someone when they're unresponsive.  Maybe we have to wait for the bankruptcy sale and pick it up for pennies on the dollar. Do you have contact information for anyone over there that will lend us an ear. I'm sure there's a lot of Insteon users that would like to reach out to them.

Do you know who manufactures their RF chip?

Is it possible to incorporate Lutron into the Polisy?  Is Lutron Wi-Fi only?

 

 

[Techman]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:28 PM, Techman said:

The only notable items currently left in the Smarthome inventory are the 6 and 8 button KLP dimmers and the fan module

The USB PLM, all switches and outlets are showing as "sold out"

 

 

 

I just called the Insteon support line, which is an overseas call center, and was told that they hope to have the switches in stock by the beginning of the year, and that lack of inventory was due to the chip shortage. 

When I asked about the PLM he said they should have them in a YEAR (that's 12 months from now). 

 

[Brian H]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Techman,

We don't have to reverse engineer the PLM. We already designed it, built 10 (my home is running on one and the lab's polisy is running it too). Then, they decided that they were not going to sell us the INSTEON chips (some RF chip with their firmware). If anyone can convince them to let us buy the chips, and if there's enough demand, we can make some. 

On the other hand, what are we going to do when switches die (my kitchen's been dead for a while and waiting for some off time to move it to Lutron because it's no longer available).

With kind regards,
Michel

I remember vividly how they worked you over.

I also know you designs where top class and would never suffer a crappy cap problem.

I also many times posted out they had crappy caps in forums and it seemed to fall on deaf ears. One dimly bright point. The V2.4 and V2.5 2413 PLM finally had a cap with  rating for a switching supply. Though again not a well known brand.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Techman said:

It's difficult to try to convince someone when they're unresponsive.  Maybe we have to wait for the bankruptcy sale and pick it up for pennies on the dollar. Do you have contact information for anyone over there that will lend us an ear. I'm sure there's a lot of Insteon users that would like to reach out to them.

Do you know who manufactures their RF chip?

Is it possible to incorporate Lutron into the Polisy?  Is Lutron Wi-Fi only?

 

 

Lutron doesn't use wifi. They use their proprietary clear connect Rf. Ra2 is type A and Ra3 is type X. I know there are nodeservers for Caseta and Ra2. I'm sure one will come for RA3 but lutron hasn't released anything for developers yet. I know one of the nodeservers support lutron's leap but not sure if that would allow Ra3 to be used at this time.

 

[larryllix]

@Techman,
We don't have to reverse engineer the PLM. We already designed it, built 10 (my home is running on one and the lab's polisy is running it too). Then, they decided that they were not going to sell us the INSTEON chips (some RF chip with their firmware). If anyone can convince them to let us buy the chips, and if there's enough demand, we can make some. 
On the other hand, what are we going to do when switches die (my kitchen's been dead for a while and waiting for some off time to move it to Lutron because it's no longer available).
With kind regards,
Michel

This sounds like a crowd sourced offer for the patent on the necessary chips from SmartHome. The offer could be for the total amount of crowd sourced funds to see what response UDI would get.

If successful, while SH is going down the tubes then UDI would be the owners of a complete PLM. Most of the engineering is already done.

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[Roland Alden]

I'm so over Insteon and Dumblabs I just want to replace it all. I am not sure there is anyone in the market that can be trusted with the exception of Lutron. Can an ISY control a fleet of Lutron devices? Is there a platform comparable to ISY that can make a house full of Lutron devices perform tricks comparable to an ISY + a fleet of Insteon devices? I think 2022 is the year I visit every jbox in my house and replace everything in order to recover from my huge mistake in betting on Insteon. But I would like to get it right this time.

[larryllix]

What is with all the Lutron shilling here lately?

And yet nobody seems to know anything about it. Is it some big secret protocol we are supposed to fall for, just because of it's mystery? That may work for a few but many here are technical people and can think independently.

Spill it, If it is so great. Tell the masses how it works, how the protocol works, technical details, or even how it is any better than x10.

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