Max length for CAT5 cable connecting the ISY994i to the Insteon PLM?

[Wes Westhaver]

Does anyone know if there is a limit to the length of the CAT5 cable connecting the ISY994i to the Insteon PLM? "The ISY994 Home Automation Cookbook" states:

Port A is an RJ-45 connector used to attach your INSTEON PLM to the ISY. This allows the
ISY to communicate with your INSTEON devices. Please use a standard Category 5e
network patch cable (included) to connect your ISY to the PLM.

I want to keep my PLM in its current location and move the ISY994i to another location using a longer CAT5 cable (to allow the ISY994i Z-Wave module better range with fewer obstructions.) So, is there a practical limit to how long the CAT5 cable connecting the two units can be?

-Wes

[gviliunas]

Although this connection uses standard Cat5 cable and connectors, the communication protocol is RS232. I think I remember the max recommended length was 4M when running at 38k baud. ISY communicates at 115k baud so I would expect that the recommended maximum distance should be fairly short, 2M ??? 

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, Wes Westhaver said:

Does anyone know if there is a limit to the length of the CAT5 cable connecting the ISY994i to the Insteon PLM? "The ISY994 Home Automation Cookbook" states:

Port A is an RJ-45 connector used to attach your INSTEON PLM to the ISY. This allows the
ISY to communicate with your INSTEON devices. Please use a standard Category 5e
network patch cable (included) to connect your ISY to the PLM.

I want to keep my PLM in its current location and move the ISY994i to another location using a longer CAT5 cable (to allow the ISY994i Z-Wave module better range with fewer obstructions.) So, is there a practical limit to how long the CAT5 cable connecting the two units can be?

-Wes

How far are you trying to go? They're are people here who have been successful with 40+ feet. With that said, they used high quality shielded cables. I believe it was @Teken

[Brian H]

1 hour ago, gviliunas said:

Although this connection uses standard Cat5 cable and connectors, the communication protocol is RS232. I think I remember the max recommended length was 4M when running at 38k baud. ISY communicates at 115k baud so I would expect that the recommended maximum distance should be fairly short, 2M ??? 

The serial speed of a 2413S  is 19,200 Baud, No Parity, 8 Bits and 1 Stop Bit.

I too have seen reports of longer distances. With good quality cable.

[KeviNH]

As mentioned in the old thread, I have a reliable setup with 30 feet of CAT5e.

The maximum distance for reliable RS-232 at 19,200 baud, transport over Cat5e is 50 feet.

[upstatemike]

My PLM is around 50 feet from my ISY. It has been running that way for many years without issue.

[gviliunas]

Thanks guys for keeping me honest!  Don't know what I was thinking about the PLM communication speed. Got to stop mixing up teletype with fiber optics...... Yes, 19.2k seems much more reasonable for your long runs. Sorry for the confusion. Very Glad we have forum members here keeping projects successfully moving forward!!!

[Wes Westhaver]

Thanks guys. I figured that the ISY994i was using a CAT5 ethernet cable for RS-232 communications but wanted to verify. As such, the rules for CAT5 ethernet cable lengths don't apply but the rules for RS-232 cable lengths do apply.

I'm working out how I want to arrange my system now that my ISY994i has a Z-Wave board in it. Without the Z-Wave board it didn't really matter where I placed the ISY994i. But now I have to take into account the fact that the ISY994i needs to be placed in a way that promotes good RF signal propagation. The current placement in my basement is no longer optimal.

I doubt that I'll exceed a 50' separation between the ISY994i and the PLM but I just wanted to get other opinions before I inserted a longer cable between the two devices.

-Wes

Edited December 26, 2021 by Wes Westhaver

[MrBill]

3 minutes ago, Wes Westhaver said:

now that my ISY994i has a Z-Wave board in it.

If it's a 500 series board (if it was recently purchased it is) you may find that standing the ISY up on it's end gives better Z-wave range.

[upstatemike]

I think an interesting question is: Once everything moves to Polisy, how far can you extend USB over Cat6 to get the ZWave dongle in an optimal location while keeping the polisy in the basement. USB is tricky because the distance you can go over Cat6 depends on the device you are using remotely. Keyboard/mouse can be a long way away while a serial adaptor or storage device not so much. No idea what you can get away with for a ZWave stick.

[lilyoyo1]

53 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I think an interesting question is: Once everything moves to Polisy, how far can you extend USB over Cat6 to get the ZWave dongle in an optimal location while keeping the polisy in the basement. USB is tricky because the distance you can go over Cat6 depends on the device you are using remotely. Keyboard/mouse can be a long way away while a serial adaptor or storage device not so much. No idea what you can get away with for a ZWave stick.

I might be over thinking things, but wouldn't it be easier to use wifi with a polisy pro or run a line from your router to your optimal location and put polisy there vs trying to figure stuff out with a USB stick and adapters?

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I think an interesting question is: Once everything moves to Polisy, how far can you extend USB over Cat6 to get the ZWave dongle in an optimal location while keeping the polisy in the basement. USB is tricky because the distance you can go over Cat6 depends on the device you are using remotely. Keyboard/mouse can be a long way away while a serial adaptor or storage device not so much. No idea what you can get away with for a ZWave stick.

I use a VR headset and it uses 1200 Mbps via WiFi. When I connect to a PC via a 15' long USB extension cord and it's microUSB 6' cord the bandwidth is fine. However the 15' USB extension was rated very heavy duty with 16Ga power runs and all shielded twisted pairs for data etc. The size of the cable reflects that.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I might be over thinking things, but wouldn't it be easier to use wifi with a polisy pro or run a line from your router to your optimal location and put polisy there vs trying to figure stuff out with a USB stick and adapters?

For me the optimal radio location will never be a place that is acceptable for a piece of hardware like Polisy. If there was a POE version similiar to an RA3 Main Controller then sure. But as it is the Polisy needs to be in the basement next to the main switch and UPS and out of sight. (Worst place from an RF perspective). 

I struggle with the how to place hubs with built-in radios in general. You almost need to build an equipment closet in the exact center of your house just to hold your Polisy, Hue Hub, Flic Hub, Hubitat, YoLink Hub, Weather Station Receiver, Home Assistant Pi, Node Red Pi, Etc. 

Also would never connect an HA hub via WiFi. Just like streaming video to a TV, an HA hub should always be connected by Ethernet.

Edited December 27, 2021 by upstatemike

[larryllix]

Equipment closets need huge ventilation. My routers would crash when a Tag placed on top of them at 45 C with several 2.5" holes and muffin fans forcing air through.  Outside the cabinet and vertical mounting solved that problem for a few years.

[lilyoyo1]

32 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

For me the optimal radio location will never be a place that is acceptable for a piece of hardware like Polisy. If there was a POE version similiar to an RA3 Main Controller then sure. But as it is the Polisy needs to be in the basement next to the main switch and UPS and out of sight. (Worst place from an RF perspective). 

I struggle with the how to place hubs with built-in radios in general. You almost need to build an equipment closet in the exact center of your house just to hold your Polisy, Hue Hub, Flic Hub, Hubitat, YoLink Hub, Weather Station Receiver, Home Assistant Pi, Node Red Pi, Etc. 

That's easy enough. None really generate alot of heat so they could go in any closet.

Depending on house setup, if you have a coat closet in the center, many times the doorbell transformer will be there. If so, you could tap into that for power and then run Ethernet from your basement to the closet. Add a switch and now you're done.

Before I started doing new construction only, I've hidden stuff behind picture frames, built hidden boxes to sit planters on and put stuff in those, etc. Sometimes it's thinking outside the box and making things part of the environment

[apostolakisl]

19 hours ago, upstatemike said:

For me the optimal radio location will never be a place that is acceptable for a piece of hardware like Polisy. If there was a POE version similiar to an RA3 Main Controller then sure. But as it is the Polisy needs to be in the basement next to the main switch and UPS and out of sight. (Worst place from an RF perspective). 

I struggle with the how to place hubs with built-in radios in general. You almost need to build an equipment closet in the exact center of your house just to hold your Polisy, Hue Hub, Flic Hub, Hubitat, YoLink Hub, Weather Station Receiver, Home Assistant Pi, Node Red Pi, Etc. 

Also would never connect an HA hub via WiFi. Just like streaming video to a TV, an HA hub should always be connected by Ethernet.

You can make most anything POE.  Just buy a POE split out if the device doesn't have it natively.  I have a whole bunch of security cameras done that way.  Both 12 and 5v versions.  You will need to of course check the power draw of the device to ensure it doesn't exceed spec.  POE++ can do something like 75 watts in the max'd out version.  Of course I don't think there are any generic splitters that do that.  Standard POE can do about 10 watts, maybe a little more.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

You can make most anything POE.  Just buy a POE split out if the device doesn't have it natively.  I have a whole bunch of security cameras done that way.  Both 12 and 5v versions.  You will need to of course check the power draw of the device to ensure it doesn't exceed spec.  POE++ can do something like 75 watts in the max'd out version.  Of course I don't think there are any generic splitters that do that.  Standard POE can do about 10 watts, maybe a little more.

I don't think POE specs apply when doing this. The adapter is just using spare conductors to carry power so the limits are just conductor gauge and length? Not sure if these work for gigabit connections though because as I recall unlike 10/100, gigabit ethernet uses all 4 pairs in the cable.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I don't think POE specs apply when doing this. The adapter is just using spare conductors to carry power so the limits are just conductor gauge and length? Not sure if these work for gigabit connections though because as I recall unlike 10/100, gigabit ethernet uses all 4 pairs in the cable.

IIRC PoE puts a high voltage (30-60v) bias on the extra conductors. Not sure how this would work on Gbit Ethernet but IIRC the high voltage gets away with the electrical codes, staying under 48-60v wiring code, and likely would not load the lines down to derate the DC-decoupled, phase shifted signals too badly. The higher voltages mean less current would be drawn (= less voltage drop in the conductors) and keeps the impedance of the source and loads higher.

Edited December 27, 2021 by larryllix

[Brian H]

You have to be careful with the 2413S PLM RJ45 type serial port jack and using POE on normally spare  wires.

Pin 3 and pin 6 are TTL level in and out connections.

On the 2412S PLM pin 2 is unregulated +12 volts. I believe the ISY994i could be powered by that power and the ISY99i could for sure.

 

[KeviNH]

3 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I don't think POE specs apply when doing this. The adapter is just using spare conductors to carry power so the limits are just conductor gauge and length? Not sure if these work for gigabit connections though because as I recall unlike 10/100, gigabit ethernet uses all 4 pairs in the cable.

PoE standard applies when using an IEEE compliant "active" splitter, perhaps you are thinking of "passive" PoE where you use a separate "injector" and then a "splitter" at the other end?

If you want to get power from a 802.3af/at "active" PoE switch, you can buy "Gigabit POE Splitters", these do comply with IEEE802.3af

  

4 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

You can make most anything POE.  Just buy a POE split out if the device doesn't have it natively.  I have a whole bunch of security cameras done that way.  Both 12 and 5v versions.  You will need to of course check the power draw of the device to ensure it doesn't exceed spec.  POE++ can do something like 75 watts in the max'd out version.  Of course I don't think there are any generic splitters that do that.  Standard POE can do about 10 watts, maybe a little more.

Most active IEEE802.3af/at splitters seem to max out at 24W.

The GIgE splitters are available at this output and mention,  802.3at, for example this is the one I ordered to split off power to the ISY994.

Edited December 28, 2021 by KeviNH

[upstatemike]

22 minutes ago, KeviNH said:

PoE standard applies when using an IEEE compliant "active" splitter, perhaps you are thinking of "passive" PoE where you use a separate "injector" and then a "splitter" at the other end?

If you want to get power from a 802.3af/at "active" PoE switch, you can buy "Gigabit POE Splitters", these do comply with IEEE802.3af

  

Most active IEEE802.3af/at splitters seem to max out at 24W.

The GIgE splitters are available at this output and mention,  802.3at, for example this is the one I ordered to split off power to the ISY994.

OK I see what you are saying... A splitter that runs from a standard POE port on a switch or injector and supplies a voltage to match the requirements of the device. Yes I was thinking of the passive adapters that take the power from the device's own power supply and inject it onto spare pairs of the ehternet with another adapter at the device end to break the power back out again. Your solution is better. I just need to evaluate my available POE power budget to see what I can deliver. I guess I could always add an 802.3af injector on a non-POE switch port to ensure my existing POE devices are not affected by the additional current draw. (cheaper than upgrading to a larger POE switch)

[apostolakisl]

19 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I don't think POE specs apply when doing this. The adapter is just using spare conductors to carry power so the limits are just conductor gauge and length? Not sure if these work for gigabit connections though because as I recall unlike 10/100, gigabit ethernet uses all 4 pairs in the cable.

POE and data go on the same conductors.  It isn't just putting power onto unused wires.  There are some versions of POE on 100mb that do it that way, but those are old school.  The newer standards share data and power on the same conductor.  This is not a passive system, the POE device "talks" to the POE switch/injector, otherwise the injector does not put any power on the line.  I have some POE++ injectors that do 60 watts to power my Unifi access control system.  In that case, the injector is generic (since I have no need for a very pricey poe++ switch) and the end device is native poe++    For my cameras, the switch is POE+ and the "splitters" are generic 12v or 5v.  These cheap generic splitters are prone to failure.  I have had 2 of them fail out of maybe 15 after a few years.  The switch is putting 48v onto the cat wire and the splitter is converting that to 12/5v.  The switch and splitter communicate so the switch knows to send power only when there is a poe adapter on the end.  It does not send power otherwise since that would damage a device not designed for poe.