Insteon keypad button & backlight synchronization - 2 keypads controlling one scene

[SSamuels]

 

Firmware        Insteon UD994 v.5.3.4 (2021-07-07-14:46:02)

UI                    Insteon UD994 v.5.3.4 (2021-07-07-14:46:02)

Product           ISY 994/IR PRO (1110)

-        OpenADR (21010)

-        Z-Wave (21100)

-        Portal Integration – UDI (21075)

 

I have a question about using multiple 2334-232 keypads to control a scene.

 

What I am trying to accomplish:

·       When Button A is pushed on EITHER keypad

o   Scene#1 is turned ON

o   The backlight for Button A on BOTH keypads is ON

o   The backlights for Buttons B, C & D on BOTH keypads is OFF

 

Current ISY configuration

·       Buttons A, B, C & D on BOTH keypads are non-toggle

·       Button A for BOTH keypads are controllers for Scene#1

·       Buttons B, C & D for BOTH keypads are responders for Scene#1 and set to turn OFF when Scene#1 is ON

 

What is happening

·       Button A on keypad 1 turns on Scene#1 and Button A backlight is ON on keypad 1 and all other backlights on keypad 1 are OFF

·       Button A on keypad 2 does not turn on Scene#1 and the backlights are ON for Buttons A, B & C

 

Any advice is appreciated.

[oberkc]

Assuming it is not something such as communication errors (does not sound like it to me), I would confirm a few things....

On 1/12/2022 at 5:09 PM, SESamuels said:

Button A for BOTH keypads are controllers for Scene#1

Sounds about right.  I suggest checking the responder levels for both buttons A.  Mouse-Click on the scene name...what are the responder levels for the various devices in the scene?  Mouse-Click on each of the two scene controller buttons...are the responder levels the same?  Are they what you expected?  Remember that scene controllers are also responders to other scene controllers.

 

On 1/12/2022 at 5:09 PM, SESamuels said:

Buttons B, C & D for BOTH keypads are responders for Scene#1 and set to turn OFF when Scene#1 is ON

Also sounds correct.  Make sure that this is true not only for scene#1 (when selected in the device listing) but also for when any other controller in that scene (two buttons A) is selected.  Remember, responder levels within a given scene can be different for each and any controller within that scene.

 

On 1/12/2022 at 5:09 PM, SESamuels said:

Button A on keypad 1 turns on Scene#1 and Button A backlight is ON on keypad 1 and all other backlights on keypad 1 are OFF

Which leads me to a question...does button A keypad 1 cause anything to happen to any of the keypad 2 buttons?

On 1/12/2022 at 5:09 PM, SESamuels said:

Button A on keypad 2 does not turn on Scene#1 and the backlights are ON for Buttons A, B & C

Which leads me to: how do you determine that scene#1 "does not turn on".  Does button A of keypad 2 not turn on?  What must be ON for you to declare scene#1 to be ON?  Are there light fixtures involved?  To what Insteon device(s) are those fixtures attached?

 

[Techman]

The backlight levels for a keypad can be set using the admin console

Set your keypad buttons for TOGGLE.

Why do you have buttons B, C and D in the scene? 

Button A should light when the scene is on and turn off when the scene is off.

[MrBill]

15 hours ago, Techman said:

The backlight levels for a keypad can be set using the admin console

Set your keypad buttons for TOGGLE.

Why do you have buttons B, C and D in the scene? 

Button A should light when the scene is on and turn off when the scene is off.

The terminology "backlight levelS" suggests that each button on a keypad can have an individual level set, as I'm sure you are aware there is only one backlight level per keypad which applies to all buttons.

OP appears to be using the buttons as Radio style buttons, where when one turns on the others turn off.  The technique is most commonly used as a fanlinc and a 6-button keypad, but the same technique can be used with normal scenes.  For example for outdoor lighting 4 buttons at my front door are set to non-toggle, the buttons control scenes name Day, Evening, Late Night and Bright.  For example the Evening button is a scene controller for that scene, however the evening scene also includes the buttons Day, Late Night and Bright so that they can be turned off when Evening is turned on.    Only one scene can be "on" at a time, and one scene must be on.  (Why do I have a "Day" scene for outdoor lighting?  It used to be called "Off" until my wife plugged in an outdoor fountain.  The ISY normally cycles the scenes, with manual over-ride buttons.

[SSamuels]

Sorry for my delay in responding. Thanks for your responses. Attached is the AC element list for Scene#1

 

·         The responder levels for all of the controller buttons is “ON” - Button A for both Keypad1 & Keypad2 are controllers of Scene#1

·         Buttons B, C & D in both keypads are set to turn OFF when Scene#1 is ON

·         Button A Keypad1 does not cause anything to happen to the Keypad2 buttons.

·         Scene#1 causes all kitchen lights to turn on 100%.

·         Pressing Button A Keypad1 causes:

o   All kitchen lights to turn on and Button A is illuminated

o   Buttons B, C & D Keypad1 are not illuminated (This is what I want to happen on Keypad2

o   Buttons A, B & C on Keypad1 are illuminated

·         After turning Scene#1 OFF in ISY AC

o   All Buttons on Keypad1 and Keypad2 are not illuminated (This is what I want)

o   Pressing Button A Keypad2

§  Does not turn Scene#1 ON (All kitchen lights ON 100%)

§  No buttons on Keypad1 or Keypad2 are illuminated

Scene#1 settings20220114.pdf

[lilyoyo1]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:34 PM, oberkc said:

Assuming it is not something such as communication errors (does not sound like it to me), I would confirm a few things....

Sounds about right.  I suggest checking the responder levels for both buttons A.  Mouse-Click on the scene name...what are the responder levels for the various devices in the scene?  Mouse-Click on each of the two scene controller buttons...are the responder levels the same?  Are they what you expected?  Remember that scene controllers are also responders to other scene controllers.

 

Also sounds correct.  Make sure that this is true not only for scene#1 (when selected in the device listing) but also for when any other controller in that scene (two buttons A) is selected.  Remember, responder levels within a given scene can be different for each and any controller within that scene.

 

Which leads me to a question...does button A keypad 1 cause anything to happen to any of the keypad 2 buttons?

Which leads me to: how do you determine that scene#1 "does not turn on".  Does button A of keypad 2 not turn on?  What must be ON for you to declare scene#1 to be ON?  Are there light fixtures involved?  To what Insteon device(s) are those fixtures attached?

 

I like creating separate scenes for each button vs. using 1 scene as it gives me the most flexibility long term.

To start, your keypad buttons should be set to toggle mode. Remove all devices from the scene and set the kpl to toggle mode. Create the additional scenes for each button. 

Start by adding your responders to each scene. Configure them for the state you want them in ie:

A scene:

B,c,d,e,f,g all added as responders and off.

Light 1,2,3 are on, 50%, and 25%

Once done, add the controller button to the scene. Everything will update accordingly in the controller

 

 

[SSamuels]

Thanks lilyoyo1 for the response.

A couple of thoughts:

·       Toggle Mode – I purposefully used non-toggle so that Button A would set the lights a one level, Button B would set the same lights at a different level, Button C another level and Button D would turn all the lights OFF. If using Toggle mode is the only solution to using two keypads to control one Scene, then I am willing to try this.

·       Multiple Scenes for each Keypad Button A – I wish there were some way to ‘copy’ and edit a Scene before each Insteon device’ link table is updated, e.g. Two Scenes, same responders, one Scene for Button A Keypad1 and one scene for Button A keypad2. As far as I know, if I wanted four keypad Button A’s to control the same lights, I would need to add each light to four scenes and assign one button on each keypad as the controller to each scene. Huge amount of work and it I add a device to be controlled, I would need to update each scene.

 

So, my question is – Should each keypad in non-toggle mode, where Button A is a controller for Scene#1 turn Scene#1 on? This is not happening at this time. If this is a viable solution, I would like to take this approach for the reasons above.

 

Any advice? And thanks again for the response

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, SESamuels said:

I wish there were some way to ‘copy’ and edit a Scene before each Insteon device’ link table is updated,

If you have the Pro version of the admin console you'll have these two buttons on the ribbon: the left one is for wired devices such as the 2 keypads you're working with, the right is for wireless devices.  When deselected (grey) they will prevent updates from being written to the device until you press again to select (green).  This helps especially for what you are doing, it will withhold on the link changes until you are done, then write all to the device at once.  If you don't have Pro you can purchase it instantly, via the help menu... it's a soft upgrade and your purchase will apply immediately.

2 hours ago, SESamuels said:

Toggle Mode – I purposefully used non-toggle so that Button A would set the lights a one level, Button B would set the same lights at a different level, Button C another level and Button D would turn all the lights OFF.

This can be done two different ways, but in either of these cases you can't use Button A as a scene controller if the keypad also has the load attached.  Button A and the Red wire are going to be doing the same thing.  If button A is on then the red wire is on (at some level), if button A is off then the red wire is turned off.  If the Red wire is unused then button A will work below.  (There is a method to decouple button A from the Load, however it's not supported by the ISY, you might get it to work following instructions somewhere on the web, but the ISY might overwrite it if you ever need to Restore Device, so I wouldn't recommend it.)

Let's use Button E, F, G, H as our scene controllers.  In all cases I would highly recommend using the disable device writes button discussed above.

Single Scene Method:

• Create a single scene.
• Make E, F, G, H non toggle, A should be toggle.
• Add Buttons E, F, G, H on both keypads as controllers (there is a confusing question where it asks "button X is already a controller would you like to add it as a Responder.... Answer NO).   Note: The links for all 8 buttons must be RED.
• Add button A on both keypads as a responder. 
• Add any additional responders.
• Click on each RED link and program the scene state.  Program not only button A to the correct level for the scene, but also the states of the other buttons.  Example if we are programing button E on keypad 1 be sure to set button E on keypad 2 to ON, likewise set Button F, G, H on both key pads to off.  Rinse and Repeat for all 8 buttons.
• click on the root of the scene and program what should happen of the ISY (admin console, programs, Alexa, GH, etc activate the scene)

Cons: the ISY (admin console, programs, Alexa, GH, etc activate the scene) can only control the scene to a single state.  Pro's: less programming time, less resources used (scenes and links)

Four Scene Method:

Same as above, except create 4 scenes.  One for the E Buttons, one for the F buttons, one for the G buttons and one for the H buttons.    When using this method, add the A buttons as responders, then add two controllers, then add the remaining 6 buttons as responders.  For Example: for Scene E add both E buttons as controllers, add both A, F, G, H buttons as responders.  For Scene F, add both F buttons as Controllers (Red links), add the F buttons as Controllers (red Links) then add A, E, G, H of both keypads as responders.   Program the Red links as the root level of each of the 4 scenes. 

Cons: longer setup time, more scene and links used.  Pro's: the ISY (admin console, programs, Alexa, GH, etc activate the scene) can activate any of the 4 scenes.

 

 

 

 

[oberkc]

5 hours ago, SESamuels said:

Sorry for my delay in responding. Thanks for your responses. Attached is the AC element list for Scene#1

 

·         The responder levels for all of the controller buttons is “ON” - Button A for both Keypad1 & Keypad2 are controllers of Scene#1

·         Buttons B, C & D in both keypads are set to turn OFF when Scene#1 is ON

·         Button A Keypad1 does not cause anything to happen to the Keypad2 buttons.

·         Scene#1 causes all kitchen lights to turn on 100%.

·         Pressing Button A Keypad1 causes:

o   All kitchen lights to turn on and Button A is illuminated

o   Buttons B, C & D Keypad1 are not illuminated (This is what I want to happen on Keypad2

o   Buttons A, B & C on Keypad1 are illuminated

·         After turning Scene#1 OFF in ISY AC

o   All Buttons on Keypad1 and Keypad2 are not illuminated (This is what I want)

o   Pressing Button A Keypad2

§  Does not turn Scene#1 ON (All kitchen lights ON 100%)

§  No buttons on Keypad1 or Keypad2 are illuminated

Scene#1 settings20220114.pdf 106.37 kB · 1 download

Unfortunately, your attachment showed only the responder levels for each device when the "scene" is controlled (ie, ISY/PLM is controller device).  As I suggested earlier (perhaps with insufficient clarity) you also need to check responder levels for the other controller devices.  Remember, this is still an Insteon system, and controller/responder relationships are established between individual Insteon devices.  Each device you have established as a controller will have controller/responder levels that may or may not be the same as for the scene and for the other controller devices.  You must ensure all responder levels for each of the controller device is correct.  Do this by selecting each of the controller devices within the scene and observing/confirming responder devices for the other devices in the scene.

 

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

like creating separate scenes for each button vs. using 1 scene as it gives me the most flexibility long term.

Yes, one can do this, but it does not necessarily explain why the approach by SESamuels is not working.   And, if one does not need the extra flexibility, then one has multiple scenes where one is otherwise sufficient.

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Unfortunately, your attachment showed only the responder levels for each device when the "scene" is controlled (ie, ISY/PLM is controller device).  As I suggested earlier (perhaps with insufficient clarity) you also need to check responder levels for the other controller devices.  Remember, this is still an Insteon system, and controller/responder relationships are established between individual Insteon devices.  Each device you have established as a controller will have controller/responder levels that may or may not be the same as for the scene and for the other controller devices.  You must ensure all responder levels for each of the controller device is correct.  Do this by selecting each of the controller devices within the scene and observing/confirming responder devices for the other devices in the scene.

 

Yes, one can do this, but it does not necessarily explain why the approach by SESamuels is not working.   And, if one does not need the extra flexibility, then one has multiple scenes where one is otherwise sufficient.

That's true. That's why I said i prefer separate scenes for long term flexibility. Today, one might not need the flexibility but tomorrow, that could change. I tend to take the long view approach to things

I suspect the fact that he has it in non toggle mode is what's causing his issues. Natively, Non toggle only wants to send specific commands with each button press

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, SESamuels said:

Thanks lilyoyo1 for the response.

A couple of thoughts:

·       Toggle Mode – I purposefully used non-toggle so that Button A would set the lights a one level, Button B would set the same lights at a different level, Button C another level and Button D would turn all the lights OFF. If using Toggle mode is the only solution to using two keypads to control one Scene, then I am willing to try this.

·       Multiple Scenes for each Keypad Button A – I wish there were some way to ‘copy’ and edit a Scene before each Insteon device’ link table is updated, e.g. Two Scenes, same responders, one Scene for Button A Keypad1 and one scene for Button A keypad2. As far as I know, if I wanted four keypad Button A’s to control the same lights, I would need to add each light to four scenes and assign one button on each keypad as the controller to each scene. Huge amount of work and it I add a device to be controlled, I would need to update each scene.

 

So, my question is – Should each keypad in non-toggle mode, where Button A is a controller for Scene#1 turn Scene#1 on? This is not happening at this time. If this is a viable solution, I would like to take this approach for the reasons above.

 

Any advice? And thanks again for the response

You can still accomplish the same thing with toggle vs non toggle in regards to different light levels. You would just set the lights how you want them in each controller. 

I never liked the copy feature but understand why people like it. If you have multiple scenes, it's possible to make things faster. Add the responders to the scene first, configure what you want them to do. Then add the controller. The Isy will automatically write everything to the controller the way you set them up. You can also hold the control button down as you click on devices. Then drag and drop to the next scene

[oberkc]

35 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I suspect the fact that he has it in non toggle mode is what's causing his issues. Natively, Non toggle only wants to send specific commands with each button press

Except that non-toggle sounds like the best approach to meet the stated needs (button A always "turns ON the scene"...the only stated requirement for pressing button A).  Yes, there may be unstated requirements and yes there may be future requirements and expansion, but my intention was to address why the solution did not meet stated requirements, rather than question the requirements.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

Except that non-toggle sounds like the best approach to meet the stated needs (button A always "turns ON the scene"...the only stated requirement for pressing button A).  Yes, there may be unstated requirements and yes there may be future requirements and expansion, but my intention was to address why the solution did not meet stated requirements, rather than question the requirements.

It does "sound" like the best approach. The only issue with it is natively, the device wants to send the "on" command to all devices linked to it (which sounds like part of the issue). With it not working, maybe another approach would be better. 

Regardless of future needs (my intention was to explain my process for better understanding), Toggle still allows him to accomplish the same thing. The only difference would be not needing a separate off for the button.

Since that's the path he's chosen, everything would still work the same. Turning A on would set that scene. Turning any other button on would turn off the A button allowing him to hit that button again to start the scene as normal. His off button could still be non toggle off if he wanted it to be since it serves 1 function. 

 

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It does "sound" like the best approach. The only issue with it is natively, the device wants to send the "on" command to all devices linked to it (which sounds like part of the issue). With it not working, maybe another approach would be better. 

Non-toggle On is sending On the the scene, the scene attributes take over for the on level,  at least as long as the link type in the scene is set to "Insteon".

I just reread post #1 of this thread over again.... the answer seems obvious?

On 1/12/2022 at 4:09 PM, SESamuels said:

What is happening

·       Button A on keypad 1 turns on Scene#1 and Button A backlight is ON on keypad 1 and all other backlights on keypad 1 are OFF

·       Button A on keypad 2 does not turn on Scene#1 and the backlights are ON for Buttons A, B & C

question 1:  Is button A keypad 2 a RED link?

question 2: did you click that red link and set the scene attributes for when that button is used?  Each Red link in a scene and the "root" level needs to be configured individually.

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

I just reread post #1 of this thread over again.... the answer seems obvious?

I thought the same thing, and have twice recommended checking the responder levels for all the controller devices within the scene.  I am not sure that the message is getting through amongst all the other tangential thoughts.

[MrBill]

12 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I thought the same thing, and have twice recommended checking the responder levels for all the controller devices within the scene.  I am not sure that the message is getting through amongst all the other tangential thoughts.

I agree.  Many don't understand that each controller can have a different configuration for the scene.   There's no problem using non-toggle buttons to turn on scenes... I have radio style buttons like OP wants at my front door for the outside lighting, they work great!

As a secondary problems Using button A as one of the controllers is problematic, if the load is connected.

[oberkc]

47 minutes ago, MrBill said:

As a secondary problems Using button A as one of the controllers is problematic, if the load is connected.

Well, one thing that was not obvious from the post was whether this was a 6- or 8-button keypad.  On the 6-button, "A" is not the load controller.

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Well, one thing that was not obvious from the post was whether this was a 6- or 8-button keypad.  On the 6-button, "A" is not the load controller.

Actually you're correct! it is a 6 button!  I missed that point...

On 1/12/2022 at 4:09 PM, SESamuels said:

I have a question about using multiple 2334-232 keypads to control a scene.

[SSamuels]

Thanks to everyone for their time and thoughts..

 

Some questions I can answer:

·                     Button A Keypad2 is a RED link

·                     Each red link and Root have been configured individually (See images attached) (BTW there is a third 6 button keypad in the scene, but same issue)

·                     Each keypad is a 6 button keypad

·                     Here is what happens when Button A is pressed on each Keypad – Between each Keypad test, the scene is turned off on by pressing ‘D’ on Keypad1 and Keypad Button Illuminations are cleared on Keypad 2 & Keypad3 by pressing the OFF button on each.

 

KEYPAD1 – Press Button A

	Does Scene execute?	Keypad1 button illuminated?	Keypad2 button illuminated?	Keypad3 button illuminated?
Press Button A	YES	Illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button B Status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button C status		NOT illuminated	Illuminated	Illuminated
Button D status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated

 

KEYPAD2 – Press Button A

	Does Scene execute?	Keypad1 button illuminated?	Keypad2 button illuminated?	Keypad3 button illuminated?
Press Button A	NO	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button B Status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button C status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button D status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated

 

KEYPAD3 – Press Button A

	Does Scene execute?	Keypad1 button illuminated?	Keypad2 button illuminated?	Keypad3 button illuminated?
Press Button A	NO	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button B Status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button C status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated
Button D status		NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated	NOT illuminated

 

Keypad1 is working as expected with regard to Scene#1 and button illumination. Does the fact that when Button A on Keypad1 is pressed and Scene#1 is executed, that Button C on Keypad2 and Keypad3 are illuminated provide any clue to my problem?

 

Again, thanks for everyone’s time. I am learning.

Scene#1 Keypad3 settings.pdf Scene#1 ROOT Settings.pdf Scene#1 Keypad1 settings.pdf Scene#1 Keypad2 settings.pdf

[MrBill]

@SESamuels the short answer is you need more RED links.  Any button in the scene that you want to be able to push and have it update anything (loads or other buttons) needs to be a RED link.   Red links are controllers, the blue (or not red) links are responders.  Responders only respond they don't control.   

When adding buttons after one button from the device is already a controller there is a trick question asked.  It says something like "XXX is already a controller would you like to add this as a responder" answer NO... you want all of those links to be red.   Once they are, then you will need to configure each device in each of the red links.    (PS--it's time consuming, but once it's done you won't have to do it again).

[oberkc]

And, given that some of the A buttons do not come ON when you press them, it makes me suspect that they are in "non-toggle-off" mode.  Do they flash a couple of times when you press them?

Given what you state that you want, I would ensure that ALL buttons A are in non-toggle-ON mode.  Based upon the four .pdf files you attached, it appears that the scene settings are correct.  My best guess is that some of your controller buttons are not all configured properly for non-toggle-ON mode.

Based, also, upon my impression from your matrix for keypad1, I cannot help but wonder if you are having some communication problems somewhere.

I also cannot help but notice that some of your link types are "command" rather than "Insteon".  I would have guessed that all should be "Insteon".

[SSamuels]

Thanks MrBill-

For my Scene#1 (Kitchen COOK-A) each Button A of Keypad1, Keypad2 & Keypad3 are red links - see 'RootScene' attached.

For each of these red link buttons, I have set the configuration for the lights and other buttons - see KP1, KP2 & KP3 attached. I have also attached a photo of the root for Scene#1.

Each of the A Buttons was added to the Scene as a Controller - I infer the red link indicates this.

I think I have set this up as you described, but Button A only works on KP1.

What am I missing?

Thanks again

 

 

 

 

20220117Root_Scene#1.pdf 20220117_KP1.pdf 20220117_KP2.pdf 20220117_KP3.pdf

[SSamuels]

Thanks oberkc for the response.

Each button on KP1, KP2 & KP3 are setup as 'Non-Toggle [ON]'

I changed all links on red link buttons to 'KEYPInsteon'

The A Buttons on KP2 & KP3 do blink when they are pressed.

BTW: What is the difference between a command link type vs an Insteon link type?

Thanks again

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, SESamuels said:

Each button on KP1, KP2 & KP3 are setup as 'Non-Toggle [ON]'

Good.  Perhaps, then, I misunderstand.  When you press Button A on keypad2 or keypad3, even the button A does not come on?  This suggests to me that they are in non-toggle (off) mode or that there is some type of failure.  

 

1 hour ago, SESamuels said:

The A Buttons on KP2 & KP3 do blink when they are pressed.

In my experience, if a keypad button is in non-toggle (off) mode, they will flash when pressed, transmit an OFF command, then stay off.  If a keypad button is in non-toggle (on) mode and pressed, it will flash, transmit an ON command, and stay on.  If you confirm that they are, in fact, in non-toggle (on) mode, yet don't stay on when pressed, this is a problem with the keypad, itself.  Either the ISY is not configuring it properly, or there is some type of failure in the keypad.

I would check, again, that these buttons are in non-toggle (on) mode.

A secondary check would be to open the ISY event viewer and observe what commands are coming when you press the keypad buttons A.  Is the ISY seeing an ON command or OFF command?  What does the ISY show as status for keypad buttons A when each is pressed?

[SSamuels]

Thanks oberck-

I will be out of town for a couple of weeks. But, I am taking your advice and need to become more accomplished at reading and interpreting the Insteon commands in the event log. I do have the Insteon Developers document with all of the detailed Insteon codes (previously I used these when I programmed my Crestron control system). BTW: if the forum would like this document, just let me know.

When I return home I will dig into my keypad issue further and update this thread.

Once again, thanks to everyone for their time and expertise.