Insteon, Z-Wave, Alexa and hubs. Making it work.

[CPrince]

Before I heard of ISY, I used the Insteon Hub and Insteon HouseLink software.  Insteon HouseLink ran all the everyday routines/programs and the Insteon Hub was integrated with Alexa for voice control and Android App to control devices.  It all worked as it should.

I have upgrade from Insteon HouseLink to ISY.   ISY runs all the everyday routines/programs and the Insteon Hub is still integrated with Alexa for voice control and Android App to control devices.  It is all working.

So now with what appears to be the end of Insteon I have started using Z-wave devices.  I have several Z-wave devices configured on the ISY and they work fine.  The problem is Alexa doesn't see them.  Obviously, different animals.  So I am thinking of throwing in a Z-Wave hub, then running a skill on Alexa to to integrate the Z-Wave modules.  My question is I need a Z-Wave hub recommendation. I think the ISY can do it but I do not want to put all my eggs in one basket.  I like a little redundancy.  

So with that being said, the Insteon hub I am using is reliant on an Insteon server somewhere.  I wonder when SmartHome will pull the plug?  What if the hub burns out; won't be the first time.  I have a replacement but without a help-desk it is of little use.

 

 

[Javi]

We have an Alexa integration included in ISY Portal, this also includes secure remote access.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#ISY_Portal:_Integration_with_Amazon_Echo.2FGoogle_Home.2FIFTTT

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, CPrince said:

I have upgrade from Insteon HouseLink to ISY

Are you still using Insteon hub for Alexa integration, along with ISY?  I expect that you will soon run into complications with this.  ISY will probably not recognize links between your Insteon devices and hub, so there is risk that those links could get overwritten.  Management of ISY and another hub among your Insteon devices can require some pretty serious attention to details.

I suggest following the advice of @Javi.  Splurge for the portal access and this will get you Alexa integration with all the devices in your ISY.  After that, remove your hub from the system.  I suspect you will find this easier to manage, long term.  An added benefit is that the portal makes using the phone app for the ISY easier and more reliable and secure.

Of course, you have to be willing to go through the learning curve with this new setup along with refreshing all your Insteon/zwave devices in the Alexa app and reprogram your routines and device names.  

[CPrince]

@oberkcno problems with the Insteon Hub running with ISY.  When I added a new device to my system I add it to one and then the other.  No problems.  Unless it is Z-Wave, it can only be added to ISY. I don't let the Insteon hub do any programs.  It simply just controls Insteon devices with the app and interact with them with Alexa.  If something happens to ISY I can manually control from the Insteon hub app or Alexa or vise versa.  Insteon hub does not talk to ISY.  Neither know the other exists. 

@Javiidea will eliminate redundancy.  I do have portal access and have loaded the ISY phone app.  The app is way to complicated for the wife and kids.  Plus I don't want them to access to all that it does.  Insteon app while poorly written works well for simple things.  It is useless for any advanced stuff.   I also have more explicit device names in ISY.  There would be a whole lot of reprogramming; basically renaming and yes Alexa will have to be dumped and started from scratch.

I am looking at the Hubitat hub for the Z-Wave devices.  I only have 5 Z-Wave devices  and I can always dump the Z-Wave device from ISY and start over if I mess stuff up.  The Insteon will stay in tack.  I am hoping Z-Wave devices can be linked to 2 hubs.  I don't know too much about Z-Wave.  I guess it will be a learning experience.

Then if Insteon pulls the plug on the hub, I will be forced to use the portal a, put the Hubitat on eBay and put my hub in the trash.  

[Javi]

13 minutes ago, CPrince said:

The app is way to complicated for the wife and kids.  Plus I don't want them to access to all that it does.  Insteon app while poorly written works well for simple things.  It is useless for any advanced stuff.  

Hi @CPrince,  I am the app developer for UD Mobile.  There is an option to disable edits which can be used to hide items and not allow access to settings/admin features.  The simple way is to add the devices needed to favorites, hide the System on the home screen, then hide all unwanted controls/status for devices on favorites, then lock edits.

I'll let someone else respond to the z-wave question as it is difficult, although not impossible.

[oberkc]

25 minutes ago, CPrince said:

no problems with the Insteon Hub running with ISY.  When I added a new device to my system I add it to one and then the other.  No problems. 

No problems, YET.  Was not worried about initial install.  Was more worried about down-the-road, as devices misbehave (as they can do from time-to-time) and troubleshooting and maintenance activities are needed.  But...if your prefer to keep the two hubs, it is certainly possible to keep it working if you are aware of the potential issues and manage it.

[lilyoyo1]

52 minutes ago, oberkc said:

No problems, YET.  Was not worried about initial install.  Was more worried about down-the-road, as devices misbehave (as they can do from time-to-time) and troubleshooting and maintenance activities are needed.  But...if your prefer to keep the two hubs, it is certainly possible to keep it working if you are aware of the potential issues and manage it.

Experience is the best teacher. Just like others who've gone through the same thing...only to come asking for help as stuff starts breaking down and going wrong. He'll have to learn for himself

[CPrince]

Okay, I get the point.  Not sure thought.  I love a challenge.  I have run Insteon hub and Insteon House link for 10 years.  Insteon hub and Isy for 9 months.  All is good.  Let's up the anti.  Hold my beer.  I just ordered Hubitat for the morning.   Win lose or draw, no guts no glory.   I will get back with results.  All hinging on Z-Wave being linked to 2 hubs.  

[oberkc]

I must admit to being curious what you think Hubitat can do with Z-wave that the ISY cannot?  It sounded as if you have decided to avoid using the ISY mobile app.  To be thorough, which app (there are three or four, if I recall) do you view as too complicated?  Are you using habitat for Alexa integration of z-wave devices and integration with mobile devices?

Sure sounds to me as if you are creating quite the complicated setup.

[CPrince]

@oberkcI do use the ISY mobile app.  As per @Javi I am going to look at dumbing it down today for the wife.  She is unintentionally good at messing stuff up.  The one thing I really like about the app besides all its functionality is that it is on line 99% of the time.  I don't have to constantly log in.  ISY can do it all, no doubt about it.

I am using UD Mobile ver .121.  I did not know there are others.

Yes, you might say I am creating a complicated setup.  My main intent is for a little redundancy plus run Alexa.  Since Alexa is already set up on the hub why move it?  @lilyoyo1says I am inviting potential issues.  I have been warned.  I had redundancy until Insteon devices became hard to find and I started looking at Z-Wave.   Used Insteon appliance modules going for $150 on eBay.   If Insteon pulls the plug on the hub, then all of this is going to be a mute point and I will have to hand it off to ISY.

I am not trying to pig headed or indifferent.  I live on the bleeding edge.  Thanks for all you support and help. ?

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, CPrince said:

@oberkcI do use the ISY mobile app.  As per @Javi I am going to look at dumbing it down today for the wife.  She is unintentionally good at messing stuff up.  The one thing I really like about the app besides all its functionality is that it is on line 99% of the time.  I don't have to constantly log in.  ISY can do it all, no doubt about it.

I am using UD Mobile ver .121.  I did not know there are others.

Yes, you might say I am creating a complicated setup.  My main intent is for a little redundancy plus run Alexa.  Since Alexa is already set up on the hub why move it?  @lilyoyo1says I am inviting potential issues.  I have been warned.  I had redundancy until Insteon devices became hard to find and I started looking at Z-Wave.   Used Insteon appliance modules going for $150 on eBay.   If Insteon pulls the plug on the hub, then all of this is going to be a mute point and I will have to hand it off to ISY.

I am not trying to pig headed or indifferent.  I live on the bleeding edge.  Thanks for all you support and help. ?

Most likely you aren't experiencing issues because you aren't doing anything complex with your setup. If you were, you'd already be facing serious issues with your system. 

Alot of veterans here focus on automation vs control which is typically what new people are doing with their system (though they'll say they're automating. This is why Oberkc tried to warn you. Things are great now but won't be long term as you expand your knowledge and try to do more. 

When you look around, redundancy doesn't come via disparate systems that do not play nice with each other. Redundancy comes from built in controls to allow one to continue what they are doing should something fail and allow them to get back up quickly. Those redundancies (while possibly less capable) generally do not negatively impact the main system. 

You claim redundancy but how are you actually accomplishing that other than using a fancy word?

Should your hub fail, it's goodbye Alexa/Google until you get another hub or set it all up again on another system. Sure, your Isy timers and app may work but you still have a lot of work in front of you to get going again. Once you replace your hub, you'll end up with half links in your devices which can potentially slow down your devices as they try to talk to the old hub which is no longer there. Yes there are ways to work around that if you know what you're doing but there's no quick and easy fix w/o taking shortcuts which only hurt you long term. 

The same applies If the Isy fails, you have nothing again. You have the hub app and voice control with no timers. Once you replace your Isy, you'll end up corrupting your hub links once again causing you more work to get back up and running. 

Oberkc, is only trying to keep you from setting yourself up for failure. As you start doing more, and the headaches come, you'll find that you have zero help. Insteon can't help because of the Isy and UDI can't help because of the hub. Forum help will be non existent as well. With 81 views and 2 replies, no one wants to wade into this since they already know the long term outcome. 

Good luck. You'll eventually need it

[oberkc]

7 hours ago, CPrince said:

I am not trying to pig headed or indifferent.

No, I did not think so.  It sounds as if you have looked at options and are making an informed decision.  Good luck and enjoy.  

[CPrince]

Well this topic took a fork in the road.  It could have ended almost as fast as it started.  I did say I would come back with my findings for integrating Z-Wave devices with ISY and a Z-Wave hub.  Somebody may be interested in the outcome.  You can't do it.  Z-Wave protocol states devices can not connect to more than one hub.  However Z-wave protocol encourages the use of multiple hubs in a Z-Wave network.  Doing this you creates a Z-Wave mesh and all devices are visible as if connected to one hub.  ISY does not support a Z-Wave mesh.  I think it used to in an older version?

So if I want to talk to my new devices, I am going to have to ditch the Insteon Hub and move everything to ISY and do a full portal integration.  

[lilyoyo1]

51 minutes ago, CPrince said:

Well this topic took a fork in the road.  It could have ended almost as fast as it started.  I did say I would come back with my findings for integrating Z-Wave devices with ISY and a Z-Wave hub.  Somebody may be interested in the outcome.  You can't do it.  Z-Wave protocol states devices can not connect to more than one hub.  However Z-wave protocol encourages the use of multiple hubs in a Z-Wave network.  Doing this you creates a Z-Wave mesh and all devices are visible as if connected to one hub.  ISY does not support a Z-Wave mesh.  I think it used to in an older version?

So if I want to talk to my new devices, I am going to have to ditch the Insteon Hub and move everything to ISY and do a full portal integration.  

I assume you meant zwave encourages the use of multiple devices not hubs as its the devices that builds out the network not the hubs.

Multiple hubs can be used in a single install by adding other hubs as secondary devices. Thats not something an entry level person should attempt however unless they are willing to settle for a huge learning curve.

[CPrince]

No, I did mean hubs.  My Hubitat hub can look for other Z-wave hubs and incorporate their devices.  Primary/Secondary.  I am nor sure how this works.  I can't build this mess as ISY does not have the option or I have not found it. Been doing a lot of reading. I thought ISY used to have a primary/secondary until I upgraded to 500 series.  I am not a subject mater specialist on this.  I wish I was. 

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, CPrince said:

No, I did mean hubs.  My Hubitat hub can look for other Z-wave hubs and incorporate their devices.  Primary/Secondary.  I am nor sure how this works.  I can't build this mess as ISY does not have the option or I have not found it. Been doing a lot of reading. I thought ISY used to have a primary/secondary until I upgraded to 500 series.  I am not a subject mater specialist on this.  I wish I was. 

The ISY can still be a secondary controller. You just have to know what you're doing to make it happen.

[CPrince]

@lilyoyo1you are killing me.  Would you point me in the direction of making the ISY a secondary controller?  I can't figure it out.  While it is not the solution, I would like to play it out.

[gzahar]

@lilyoyo1you are killing me.  Would you point me in the direction of making the ISY a secondary controller?  I can't figure it out.  While it is not the solution, I would like to play it out.

It is the Zwave Learn menu item.

You might want to read up on Zwave secondary controllers before utilizing that.

Here is a very basic article about a different controller but should be relevant.

https://community.smartthings.com/t/faq-zwave-secondary-hub-basics/201631

[Mikes]

I recently lost a PLM for my ISY or at least that's the best I can tell due to lack of help and useful information for debugging and the terrible admin UI.  I've had my ISY since they first came out and it's been rock solid. That being said I'm tired of Java, it's horrible updating process and the very old UI so I decided to try out Zwave with a Hubitat. 

So far I love the Hubitat, I have a lot to learn yet but it was far easier to get setup and use than the ISY.

[CPrince]

@Mikes Yes it is getting scary that our systems rely on a single PLM.  I wonder if there is a way to convert the USB PLM to serial PLM?  I have 2 of them.  I haven't doven in to the Z-Wave side too much.  I have the Hubitat detected as several  repeaters and a gateway.  My next move is to attache a z-wave device to the Hubitat and see if it gets pushed over to the ISY.    Funds are lacking.  I have too much invested in Insteon at this time.  Insteon actually has so many great features.  

As for the Java.  It didn't used to bother me until I did a Java update.  Now it is all messed up.  I have to flush the Java in the control panel  before I lunch the admin console every single time.  It is beyond annoying.   Then the Admin Console locks up with a "system busy".  You have to bring up Task Manager to kill it.   Busy doing what?  Flush the Java reload the console and we go on for a while. 

[MrBill]

15 hours ago, CPrince said:

I wonder if there is a way to convert the USB PLM to serial PLM?

Many users have successful exchanged the daughter board.  That is removing the serial daughter board from a failed 2413s and installing it in place of the daughter board in a 2413u.

15 hours ago, CPrince said:

As for the Java.  It didn't used to bother me until I did a Java update.  Now it is all messed up.  I have to flush the Java in the control panel  before I lunch the admin console every single time.  It is beyond annoying.   Then the Admin Console locks up with a "system busy".  You have to bring up Task Manager to kill it.   Busy doing what?  Flush the Java reload the console and we go on for a while. 

Do you have Java 8, update 321 or later?   Specifically Java 8, not java 11 or java 17 or anything other than Java 8?

Are you using the ISY Launcher, or a copy of admin.jnlp to launch the admin console?  are you using windows or a mac?  When you can get the admin console open, if you go to the Help > About menu are the firmware and UI versions matched? 

With these answered we can probably get to the bottom of your java/admin console issue fairly quickly.

[CPrince]

@MrBillGood to know about the USB/Serial PLM's.  I am good for the rest of my life or 3 good lightening strikes, which ever comes first.

Java is 8 update 321. Using Windows 7.  Firmware and UI match in Admin console at 5.3.0.  So that leaves us with the Launcher.  After I flush the Java cache, files and shortcut to ISY Admin Console,  I used to go to  http://x.x.x.x/admin.jnlp.  This downloads admin.jnlp.  I run the admin.jnlp which repopulates the short cut and opens the console.  Now I just click on admin.jnlp in my download folder after I have cleared the cashe and files.  I am not sure what the Launcher is. .  Is this the Launcher; it doesn't work since I did a Java update?  I get some sort of certificate error.  I used to always click on that with no issues until the Java update.  This is what I get now....

[MrBill]

21 minutes ago, CPrince said:

I am good for the rest of my life or 3 good lightening strikes, which ever comes first.

That provided the actual out loud laugh!

I'm not certain why you're getting the certificate error that you're getting.  It doesn't make sense, assuming that you are checking the box to "clear installed apps and applets" when the java cache is cleared.  The procedure that you're following to download admin.jnlp seems to me to be correct.

21 minutes ago, CPrince said:

I am not sure what the Launcher is. .  Is this the Launcher

No it's not.  the file named admin.jnlp is the specific admin console that works with the firmware that it was downloaded from.  (which you appear to be following the correct rules to use).   Many Mac users find that method still works best for them.

The majority of windows users have better luck using the ISY Launcher which is newer method that has now been around for about 3.5 years.  I linked a thread about it below.   The major purpose behind the ISY Launcher is two-fold 1) eliminate browsers blocking java and associated browser security warnings. 2) ensure that the proper admin console version is launched each time (checking the firmware version and launching the admin version).

To use, just clear the java cache including installed applications and applets, and delete any files you may have named start.jnlp or admin.jnlp .   Then download and run https://isy.universal-devices.com/start.jnlp (note the name is start.jnlp, instead of admin.jnlp)  The first time start.jnlp is run it will install an icon on your desktop named "ISY Launcher" which when clicked will run ISY finder and ultimately the correct admin console to match the ISY's firmware.

In most cases once the ISY Launcher is installed, you'll no longer need to clear the java cache at firmware upgrades because the ISY Laucher is actually getting the correct admin console each time it's launched.

 

[MrBill]

@CPrince just re-read my reply above.  I left something out... be sure when using the admin.jnlp method to also delete any copies of admin.jnlp anytime you're clearing the java cache.  I think extra (outdated) copies are sometimes confused for the current version.

[CPrince]

@MrBill Launcher fixed  Thanks!