zooz scene controller help

[gages97]

I am testing the Zen32 and am encountering similar issues, I add the scene 1 button and a 2634 (Insteon Outdoor module) both as controllers.  Scene 1 button on the Zen32 will turn the scene on but not off.

What I was able to do was a program that uses double tap for off so, if switched fast on then turn off insteon device(s)

I opened a ticket w/ zooz

[gages97]

So it would appear that the Zooz behavior is a feature not a bug.  The Scene buttons on the unit are just buttons that trigger an action (in an if then else program), their concept of scenes is not the same as what I am used to w/ Insteon. 

I ended up as follows:

• Set Scene button led lights on at all times
• Press 1x to turn on a device or an ISY scene
• Press 2x or long press to turn off a device or an ISY scene

But here's the thing, the big button that controls the attached load, does act exactly like an Insteon device does in a scene, set it as a controller and it will trigger a scene and react to a scene.  So I don't think this is a Zwave issue, but how Zooz thinks about things issue.

 

[roberthleeii]

5 hours ago, gages97 said:

So it would appear that the Zooz behavior is a feature not a bug.  The Scene buttons on the unit are just buttons that trigger an action (in an if then else program), their concept of scenes is not the same as what I am used to w/ Insteon. 

I ended up as follows:

• Set Scene button led lights on at all times
• Press 1x to turn on a device or an ISY scene
• Press 2x or long press to turn off a device or an ISY scene

But here's the thing, the big button that controls the attached load, does act exactly like an Insteon device does in a scene, set it as a controller and it will trigger a scene and react to a scene.  So I don't think this is a Zwave issue, but how Zooz thinks about things issue.

 

The big button is tied to the on/off relay that is why it works like that. You are actually tied to the on/off relay that is why it "works". If you untie the relay control from the button, the button will work just like the rest of the little ones... i think.... 

try using variables to control on/off in your programs. I set up programs to turn on and off lights, then create programs triggered by a button press and the state of a variable that calls one of the on/off programs, then changes the variable state.. I just use 0 for off and 1 for on in the variable.  Pressing the button again will make another program run because the state of the variable is different.  

as an example one of my switches that controls hue lights: single press calls a bright hue scene and sets my status variable to 1. A second press turns the lights off and sets the variable to 0. Double press sets a concentrate scene and the variable to 1, triple press sets a night light scene and the variable to 1. double and triple presses will always result in lights on. Single press is depended on if the lights should be on or off. 

?‍♂️

feature or not it can work. I am sure there are easier and better ways too ?‍♂️

 

[slrobins]

I am not sure if this would be helpful to anyone looking to incorporate the ZEN32 into a scene, but I was successful in getting the small buttons (1 -4) to operate multiple scenes by creating a program instead of a scene.  I used the (if) statement to monitor when a button was pushed, and a (then) statement to run multiple programs and turn specific Insteon devices off. 

[gages97]

I went back and forth w/ Zooz support.  Here is what they came back with:

The ZEN32 only sends the trigger to the hub, and then the hub gives you options to finalize the action.

The set-up works on the main button since it's the same type of device (the outlet is an on/off device and the main switch button on the ZEN32 is an on/off device). But the small buttons on the ZEN32 are not on/off devices, they are button type devices so they won't behave like on/off device and simply grouping them with on/off devices won't work.

You would need to write separate "if/ then" scenarios to control your device with any small button, and another rule to control the LED indicator based on the status of the controlled device so they stay in sync.

I then asked about a “special mode” for a toggle approach

This is something that the software interface could potentially provide, but it's not how ISY and some other hubs handle central scene. We're restricted by Z-Wave certification on how we can implement the functionality and ISY doesn't give us a way to influence the interface in any way as a manufacturer to make it more intuitive. On SmartThings for example, where we can provide our own handler code, we could decide how the device displays and it offers a simple menu to assign actions to each button straight from the interface.

Unfortunately, there isn't a Z-Wave device type that would offer on/off functionality for monitoring only. If we displayed the buttons on the ZEN32 as on/off devices, it would display them as controllable devices, when in fact they cannot be controlled, since there's nothing connected to them. They work just like buttons on a remote control, which serve as a trigger function only.

I will pass your feedback on to the Z-Wave developers, so they can perhaps create a new device type for easier programming of physical Z-Wave remote controls.

--

So for now we are stuck with if then logic.  @slrobins I was able to get programming working for switched on and then long press or double tap for off.  Yes you can then set the indicator light status but I didn't bother, I just left it on all the time.

[upstatemike]

This is why I question the longevity of Z-Wave. It just doesn't seem like the protocol is well thought out for what consumers need (maybe was designed more to satisfy the desires of manufacturers to get companies to buy in?)

In my application I use Zen32s to control Hue bulbs. I use the large button to control on/off and the four small ones to set a color. The leds on the four small buttons are left on all the time and act as labels to show what color they will set. The LED on the large button changes color to acknowledge what color selection is currently active. I had to use a value of 2 for the relay disable parameter to keep the relay on and disconnected from the paddle and also non-responsive to Z-Wave commands so that I could make the on/off status of the large button LED stay in sync without actually operating the relay. I use 2 programs for on and off. 4 programs for the small buttons to set the colors, and 2 programs to ensure the large button stays in sync when the lights are controlled from Hue switches or motion sensors, the Hue app, or from an ISY schedule.

In the end it works well but I would never use it to set up control for somebody else because it is too labor intensive and has too many potential points of failure if I ever had to troubleshoot a problem. 

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

This is why I question the longevity of Z-Wave. It just doesn't seem like the protocol is well thought out for what consumers need (maybe was designed more to satisfy the desires of manufacturers to get companies to buy in?)

In my application I use Zen32s to control Hue bulbs. I use the large button to control on/off and the four small ones to set a color. The leds on the four small buttons are left on all the time and act as labels to show what color they will set. The LED on the large button changes color to acknowledge what color selection is currently active. I had to use a value of 2 for the relay disable parameter to keep the relay on and disconnected from the paddle and also non-responsive to Z-Wave commands so that I could make the on/off status of the large button LED stay in sync without actually operating the relay. I use 2 programs for on and off. 4 programs for the small buttons to set the colors, and 2 programs to ensure the large button stays in sync when the lights are controlled from Hue switches or motion sensors, the Hue app, or from an ISY schedule.

In the end it works well but I would never use it to set up control for somebody else because it is too labor intensive and has too many potential points of failure if I ever had to troubleshoot a problem. 

I agree with you in regards to installer and prosumer diy homes. Your sentiments are part of the many reasons why I can't fully get on board with zwave.

When you talk about basic systems such as smart things and qolsys alarm panels, people are generally looking for basic control of their devices. What we do here with the Isy and other automation controllers do expose the shortcomings of zwave that other basic systems do not. In that regards, zwave works perfect. 

[roberthleeii]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

This is why I question the longevity of Z-Wave. It just doesn't seem like the protocol is well thought out for what consumers need (maybe was designed more to satisfy the desires of manufacturers to get companies to buy in?)

In my application I use Zen32s to control Hue bulbs. I use the large button to control on/off and the four small ones to set a color. The leds on the four small buttons are left on all the time and act as labels to show what color they will set. The LED on the large button changes color to acknowledge what color selection is currently active. I had to use a value of 2 for the relay disable parameter to keep the relay on and disconnected from the paddle and also non-responsive to Z-Wave commands so that I could make the on/off status of the large button LED stay in sync without actually operating the relay. I use 2 programs for on and off. 4 programs for the small buttons to set the colors, and 2 programs to ensure the large button stays in sync when the lights are controlled from Hue switches or motion sensors, the Hue app, or from an ISY schedule.

In the end it works well but I would never use it to set up control for somebody else because it is too labor intensive and has too many potential points of failure if I ever had to troubleshoot a problem. 

The most confusing part of the zen32 is the relay status vs actual state.  I disconnected the relay so they are always on and I can use the main Button Press as a on off toggle but I have a backup where I x5 press little button 4 to turn on the relay incase it somehow gets turned off (I had a power outage and some of mine turned off ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️)  but the on off relay status is not actually tied to the relay, it just toggles after any button press ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️

 

With the programing and variables my main Button works fine. Press it once and the hue lights come on and the led indicator turns green. Press it again and it turns off and the led indicator turns back to white. Double, triple, etc presses turn on to different scenes and a single press will still turn the lights off. 

[gages97]

Based on my back and forth with them, seems like they could add an advanced setting, to have the scene buttons act as toggle buttons, ie a toggle mode.  

[asbril]

I have mine setup with 1 click is ON 2 clicks is OFF

[gages97]

So my take here is that the people responsible for the product feature set of these offerings are not in tune with what the expected requirements of their users are, so the lack of functionality that this group is expecting, is a product management issue not a technical limitation.

Example, for my Temple I had to replace their Insteon hub and 4 switches w/ something simple for various non technical users to be able to use.  I looked at the new WiFi stuff like Kasa and Leviton.  Certain basic concepts are missing, like the ability to schedule a scene for an on and off time (Kasa can not set an off time) or toggle a scene for multiple devices from a single action  on a switch or scene controller (neither can do this).

I spoke w/ Leviton about it, and it is clear that they don't think about the functionality of their smarthome products the way we are used to. 

So in the end, my take is this is a product management issue and not a technical limitation issue.

 

[MrBill]

19 hours ago, gages97 said:

So my take here is that the people responsible for the product feature set of these offerings are not in tune with what the expected requirements of their users are, so the lack of functionality that this group is expecting, is a product management issue not a technical limitation.

Example, for my Temple I had to replace their Insteon hub and 4 switches w/ something simple for various non technical users to be able to use.  I looked at the new WiFi stuff like Kasa and Leviton.  Certain basic concepts are missing, like the ability to schedule a scene for an on and off time (Kasa can not set an off time) or toggle a scene for multiple devices from a single action  on a switch or scene controller (neither can do this).

I spoke w/ Leviton about it, and it is clear that they don't think about the functionality of their smarthome products the way we are used to. 

So in the end, my take is this is a product management issue and not a technical limitation issue.

Definitely not a technical limitation.  But overall there are only a very few of us that make every switch in the house a smartswitch and desire the feature sets being discussed.  The two forces that are at work on manufactures are that the masses just want a remote control switch as an upgrade to the timer for the front lights, or maybe to have a few lights turn on at dusk and off later on, etc, but not whole house control (at least in North America, Europe appears to be more energy conscious), that's still a very small percentage of the market.... the other force is price competition in the market... gotta drive the basics to market at the lowest cost possible to gain sales in a crowded marketplace. 

[roberthleeii]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:49 PM, gages97 said:

So my take here is that the people responsible for the product feature set of these offerings are not in tune with what the expected requirements of their users are, so the lack of functionality that this group is expecting, is a product management issue not a technical limitation.

Example, for my Temple I had to replace their Insteon hub and 4 switches w/ something simple for various non technical users to be able to use.  I looked at the new WiFi stuff like Kasa and Leviton.  Certain basic concepts are missing, like the ability to schedule a scene for an on and off time (Kasa can not set an off time) or toggle a scene for multiple devices from a single action  on a switch or scene controller (neither can do this).

I spoke w/ Leviton about it, and it is clear that they don't think about the functionality of their smarthome products the way we are used to. 

So in the end, my take is this is a product management issue and not a technical limitation issue.

 

While I don't think these switches are perfect they give everything we need to accomplish what we want.  While we think we may want everything to work a certain way and that be the standard there will always be people who disagree and want something else. I feel (and I am still a newbie, so take this statement how you want) these switches have the basic physical software structure to do almost everything we want, we just need to figure out the software side on our platform of choice. 

What I would find more useful is the ability to create, distribute, and/or sell some sort of reusable code blocks in the ISY with a wizard to set up and share common tasks and automations with each other. For example once i set up one Zen32 with a hue scene using programs, variables, and NRs it would be nice to be able to set it up to be repeatable around the house for different rooms and share all the pieces with others instead of having to do a complete writeup on what variables to set, copy and paste of the programs, etc...  

At the same time I don't expect this and understand how complicated this would be and am perfectly happy the way it stands. 

[GJ Software Products]

I was fooling with my test ZEN32 today and found that when added to a scene, the On event will turn on / activate the scene but it looks like it just sends a button pressed event, an On, but never sends the Off to turn the scene off.  I added the Relay (Big) button to the scene and that 'kinda worked but is was inconsistent.  I wrote my own flip/flop - toggle and use programming do drive the scenes.  It would be nice if Zooz would configure the 4 small buttons to have an on and off state and report the on and off events to the network.  I'm still new to Z-wave so as far as I know the standard may not even allow something as this. 

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, GJ Software Products said:

I was fooling with my test ZEN32 today and found that when added to a scene, the On event will turn on / activate the scene but it looks like it just sends a button pressed event, an On, but never sends the Off to turn the scene off.  I added the Relay (Big) button to the scene and that 'kinda worked but is was inconsistent.  I wrote my own flip/flop - toggle and use programming do drive the scenes.  It would be nice if Zooz would configure the 4 small buttons to have an on and off state and report the on and off events to the network.  I'm still new to Z-wave so as far as I know the standard may not even allow something as this. 

What does the event viewer (set to level 3) show when you press off

[GJ Software Products]

Never see a DOF:

Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:40 AM : [ZW023_201N002]      DON   0
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:40 AM : [VAR  2    3 ]       1
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:50 AM : [ZW023_201N002]      DON   0
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:50 AM : [VAR  2    3 ]       0

 

[roberthleeii]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

What does the event viewer (set to level 3) show when you press off

 

1 hour ago, GJ Software Products said:

Never see a DOF:

Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:40 AM : [ZW023_201N002]      DON   0
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:40 AM : [VAR  2    3 ]       1
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:50 AM : [ZW023_201N002]      DON   0
Sat 05/28/2022 09:16:50 AM : [VAR  2    3 ]       0

 

I see this same thing.  The buttons never trigger a zwave off event, it is always an on event. The ISY does not even register that it can do an off event.  The only off status ISY can pull off the controller is from the relay status but it is not accurate. It toggles the "device" on/off status every time any button is pressed?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️.  I know there is on/off status in there for each of the buttons because the LEDs on each of the buttons can toggle state, again it just seems invisible to the ISY(or any zwave device).

[brians]

The Zen32 looked like a promising device but is crippled by firmware.

If Zooz can update the firmware to have on/off states for each button, AND not have *EVERY BUTTON* turn on/off the relay status with each press, then it would be a great product.

 

 

[asbril]

33 minutes ago, brians said:

The Zen32 looked like a promising device but is crippled by firmware.

If Zooz can update the firmware to have on/off states for each button, AND not have *EVERY BUTTON* turn on/off the relay status with each press, then it would be a great product.

 

 

The way I programmed the Zen32 is that for the 4 bottom buttons, 1 click is ON, 2 clicks is OFF

[GJ Software Products]

I was fighting this "Every Button" turn on the relay status and I got past it somehow???  <lol>  I think when I was looking at "Binary Switch" that changes state with every button but if you look at "Scene Button 5" it will behave like the other 4.  Just use a flip/flop to toggle a state variable on the button press. I'm not using the relay for anything.  Plus, Parameter 19=2 and Parameter 20=1(default).  Right now I'd like to believe I have a five button controller and you can either use the state variables to turn stuff on and off or replace them with the physical point.  I get a lot of pop corn effect when using the physical digital point for feedback to "Led_Follow."

[GJ Software Products]

Or for On/Off LED control:

[brians]

38 minutes ago, GJ Software Products said:

I was fighting this "Every Button" turn on the relay status and I got past it somehow???  <lol>  I think when I was looking at "Binary Switch" that changes state with every button but if you look at "Scene Button 5" it will behave like the other 4.  Just use a flip/flop to toggle a state variable on the button press. I'm not using the relay for anything.  Plus, Parameter 19=2 and Parameter 20=1(default).  Right now I'd like to believe I have a five button controller and you can either use the state variables to turn stuff on and off or replace them with the physical point.  I get a lot of pop corn effect when using the physical digital point for feedback to "Led_Follow."

I did something similar, and I got past the relay state by querying it after every button press which would update its state in ISY and it seemed to work - but the relay still could never be used to trigger a program or scene because it could momentary flip on with any button. I also disabled direct control of relay and used a program that would turn the relay on when it detected the button press. This would seem to work good but every once and a while it would get into a race condition turn on/off - think an issue with how Z-Wave is done on ISY (I have experienced this in simple scenes with two z-wave Zen71 on both IoP and ISY). I ended up returning it... a used keypadlinc is a better investment. I required the physical relay to turn on/off a local light and the buttons to act as controllers for other devices in room - if IoP was offline I needed the physical switch to work still.

 

 

 

[roberthleeii]

1 minute ago, brians said:

I did something similar, and I got past the relay state by querying it after every button press which would update its state in ISY and it seemed to work - but the relay still could never be used to trigger a program or scene because it could momentary flip on with any button. I also disabled direct control of relay and used a program that would turn the relay on when it detected the button press. This would seem to work good but every once and a while it would get into a race condition turn on/off - think an issue with how Z-Wave is done on ISY (I have experienced this in simple scenes with two z-wave Zen71 on both IoP and ISY). I ended up returning it... a used keypadlinc is a better investment. I required the physical relay to turn on/off a local light and the buttons to act as controllers for other devices in room - if IoP was offline I needed the physical switch to work still.

 

 

 

I find that is is a lot quicker and more relabel if you are using state variables instead of querying the status of a device. 

[kandlg]

I gave one of these a try and I’ve been talking to Zooz customer support. They say this behavior only occurs on the ISY and that it is how the ISY sets up the associations, “probably in an outdated manner.”  Not sure if that is right or they are passing the buck. They said they were going to reach out to see if ISY would update it on their side.

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, kandlg said:

I gave one of these a try and I’ve been talking to Zooz customer support. They say this behavior only occurs on the ISY and that it is how the ISY sets up the associations, “probably in an outdated manner.”  Not sure if that is right or they are passing the buck. They said they were going to reach out to see if ISY would update it on their side.

Michel has stated zwave will be handled differently with polisy. Not sure if the new updates will make it's way down to the Isy.

Another user stated earlier he found similar behavior using it with homeseer

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by lilyoyo1