Wow, I'm up to 002 in my Z-Wave network - backups?

[oskrypuch]

Got my 700 dongle hooked up to my Polisy, ticked the option, rebooted. 700 is visible.  ?

Plugged in my Aeotec series 7 range extender, Z-Wave|Add Device and the Learn button on the extender, I'm connected!

Bear with me, this is my first dip in the Z-Wave pool. ? On my way to future proof my mature Insteon setup, and, do have a few trial devices to hook up as well.

 

But, my question is about backups. In the wiki it mentions that you need to create a Z-Wave backup first, then an [ISY] backup. I believe that relates only to the older ISY/500 Z-Wave board? There is no such option in the Z-Wave menu in the Polisy.

So, is it correct that the Z-Wave setup is backed'up as well, with the one-step usual File Backup ISY option, if Z-Wave is active?

* Orest

[Techman]

Being that Z-wave migration is not yet available when moving from the ISY to the Polisy there's no advantage in doing the ISY Z-wave backup as you'll be doing a fresh install on the Polisy.

The Z-wave backup feature in the Polisy is not yet available.

After you install your devices do a "generate topology" report which will create a record of your installed devices

[oskrypuch]

Quote

The Z-wave backup feature in the Polisy is not yet available.

Oh, that is an issue. So if your system farkles, you have to recreate (learn) the whole net on the Z-Wave side, and then you'd have to fix all the references throughout your programming for your devices?? If so, ouch. (for now)
 

Another question. I understand that Z-Wave devices are location sensitive and use something like an internal routing table for best access?

But, it used to be (before Network-wide Search) that you had to have the device within range of the primary controller to add it. How do you square that peg? Did you move it to the final location after it is added, and then run optimization?

Or, now, should you not power up the device to add it, until it is in its final location?

Or, is that where self-healing comes in. I understand that manual heal is no longer available on 5.3 and later. (just read through the Tips & Tricks again)

* Orest

[Techman]

@oskrypuch

I wouldn't worry about a "farkle", I'm sure that the back-up option will be added in the not to distant future.

The Polisy Z-wave 700 dongle has an effective range of about 40 feet indoors, so it's best to add your hardwired Z-wave devices closest to the Polisy first then work out from there. Each hardwired Z-wave device will also act as a repeater.  If you don't plan on having any Z-wave devices in close proximity to the Polisy then you could add a plug-in Z-wave range extender/repeater. Aeotec makes an excellent 700 series extender. 

 

 

[Bumbershoot]

32 minutes ago, oskrypuch said:

But, it used to be (before Network-wide Search) that you had to have the device within range of the primary controller to add it. How do you square that peg? Did you move it to the final location after it is added, and then run optimization?

I bought a Polisy Pro, and put it on my WiFi when I did my migration.  That way I could move the Polisy to close proximity to my locks, etc., in order to perform the Z-Wave exclude/include.  Newer and many powered devices support network wide inclusion, so you might be able to leave the Polisy in it's permanent location for those.

[oskrypuch]

<disregard>

 

[oskrypuch]

31 minutes ago, Techman said:

@oskrypuch

The Polisy Z-wave 700 dongle has an effective range of about 40 feet indoors, so it's best to add your hardwired Z-wave devices closest to the Polisy first then work out from there. Each hardwired Z-wave device will also act as a repeater.  If you don't plan on having any Z-wave devices in close proximity to the Polisy then you could add a plug-in Z-wave range extender/repeater. Aeotec makes an excellent 700 series extender. 

 

 

Yes, that is the first thing I added, the Aeotec 700 repeater. That is all I have so far, so not too concerned about Z-Wave backups thus far!

For plug in units trivial to do, but for in box devices I guess you would just keep a 110v plug with a loose wire hookup to get it going?

So, let's say I add a unit next to the Polisy (and repeater, it is only 10ft away), I then pull the power on the just added unit, and walk it out to its final location, plug it in/wire it up, and then just let it sit and it will "heal" itself in a a bit?

And if putting in a bunch, you want to sequence from closest (first) to furthest away.

* Orest

 

[oskrypuch]

10 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

I bought a Polisy Pro, and put it on my WiFi when I did my migration.  That way I could move the Polisy to close proximity to my locks, etc., in order to perform the Z-Wave exclude/include. 

That would allow you to move the plisy to the installed location, but at the penalty of having to reboot the Polisy twice, each time, unless you have a very long extension cord!

I have a lot of program initializations and such, so that would be a pain.

* Orest

[Bumbershoot]

10 minutes ago, oskrypuch said:

So, let's say I add a unit next to the Polisy (and repeater, it is only 10ft away), I then pull the power on the just added unit, and walk it out to its final location, plug it in/wire it up, and then just let it sit and it will "heal" itself in a a bit?

Once you get the device included in your Polisy, you can right click (context menu) on the device and choose "Z-Wave | Update Neighbors". 

[Bumbershoot]

11 minutes ago, oskrypuch said:

I have a lot of program initializations and such, so that would be a pain.

The reboot isn't too bad, much faster than the ISY in my case.  I already had Z-Wave devices installed, so otherwise, I'd be removing door locks and messing around in the crawl space of my house to get the devices excluded/included.  Moving the Polisy around using WiFi for the network was vastly easier for me.  YMMV.

[oskrypuch]

The other thing, folks talk about including/excluding.

Is that a way to force a rejigging of the path to the controller? Presume that is a context option, when you have a device installed?

So, that might be if you were rebuilding a full already (physically) installed network. Otherwise, you can just use the Update Neighbors option, assuming that only one device needs fixing.

Does the "topology" map list the Z-Wave routing, so you can check the logic yourself?

Fun to be a newbie again.

* Orest

[Bumbershoot]

1 minute ago, oskrypuch said:

The other thing, folks talk about including/excluding.

Is that a way to force a rejigging of the path to the controller? Presume that is a context option, when you have a device installed?

So, that might be if you were rebuilding a full already (physically) installed network. Otherwise, you can just use the Update Neighbors option.

* Orest

I'm not sure there'd be a benefit of excluding/including a device to force a new path.  For one thing, the Z-Wave device number would change, which could break things in already established programs and scenes (Z-Wave won't reuse a device number until it gets to *I think* 255, then it'll start over at 2).  I think the Update Neighbors tool is meant to achieve this.

If you want to see what the path is, what neighbors the device sees, you can get it from the context menu of the device and have the data printed to the Event Viewer 'Z-Wave | Show information in Event Viewer' (in this case, the device is talking directly to the controller, about 35 feet away):

Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Last working route from ISY to Node  10 - ZW 010 Dimmer SwitchOffice
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Direct
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  10 - ZW 010 Dimmer SwitchOffice has the following neighbors
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   2 - ZW 002 Guest Dimmer Switch
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   3 - ZW 003 Multilevel Sensor - Ea
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   5 - ZW 005 Siren
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   7 - ZW 007 Garage Bench Switch
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   8 - ZW 008 Laundry Light Switch
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   9 - ZW 009 Office Motion Switch
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  11 - ZW 011 Office Plug-in Dimmer
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  12 - ZW 012 Garage Door East
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  14 - ZW 014 Garage Door West
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  18 - ZW 018 Schlage Door Lock
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  19 - ZW 019 Water Cop
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Wed 04/27/2022 15:03:12 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------

 

[Techman]

No need to exclude a device if it hasn't been previously linked.  i.e., if a device was linked to the ISY994 and you wanted to move that device over to the Polisy you would first exclude it from the ISY then Include it in the Polisy. This removes the link tables from the previous controller and includes them in the new controller.

In rare instances, if a device won't install, do an exclude then include.

 

[oskrypuch]

3 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

I'm not sure there'd be a benefit of excluding/including a device to force a new path.  For one thing, the Z-Wave device number would change, which could break things in already established programs and scenes (Z-Wave won't reuse a device number until it gets to *I think* 255, then it'll start over at 2).  I think the Update Neighbors tool is meant to achieve this.

Oh gosh, didn't realize that a device identity in Z-Wave is so fragile, in contrast to the "nic" type hard ID on the Insteon side. That would be a real nuisance if you scrambled the IDs.

I assume that a power loss won't cause this??

And the ISY relies only on that labile ID to address the devices. Hmm.

is there a way to recover the original logical device ID, by manually reassigning it, if it gets scrambled? If not, that means editing all your programs in ISY?? That could be a royal headache.

* Orest

[oskrypuch]

I am trying to add ZOOZ ZEN17. ...

<moved to its own thread>

[oskrypuch]

6 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

(Z-Wave won't reuse a device number until it gets to *I think* 255, then it'll start over at 2). 

So there is a hard limit of 254 devices on a network?

* Orest

[Bumbershoot]

7 hours ago, oskrypuch said:

So there is a hard limit of 254 devices on a network?

* Orest

Sorry, it's less than that:

How many devices (nodes) can be included in a Z-Wave network?

A Z-Wave network can handle a maximum of 232 devices (nodes), including the primary controller.

https://www.clarecontrols.com/helpcenter/z-wave-faqs

 

[asbril]

9 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Sorry, it's less than that:

How many devices (nodes) can be included in a Z-Wave network?

A Z-Wave network can handle a maximum of 232 devices (nodes), including the primary controller.

https://www.clarecontrols.com/helpcenter/z-wave-faqs

 

I am not sure that this is correct.  I have some 65 Zwave devices on my ISY (plus some 15 on IoP).

The ST Inventory Node server on my ISY lists 267 Zwave nodes. My interpretation is that Zwave allows for some 232 Zwave devices, with most devices having several nodes.

[Bumbershoot]

10 minutes ago, asbril said:

I am not sure that this is correct.  I have some 65 Zwave devices on my ISY (plus some 15 on IoP).

The ST Inventory Node server on my ISY lists 267 Zwave nodes. My interpretation is that Zwave allows for some 232 Zwave devices, with most devices having several nodes.

That makes perfect sense.  Kind of gets down to how nodes are defined, but I agree with you.  232 devices, many more nodes.

[oskrypuch]

Well, up to seven Z-Wave items, now (in place and/or ordered). And, I'm carefully laying these out so that I build out a properly spaced RF backbone, as I'm still in a sparse array.

Replacing some of my really old Insteons, one of these was a bit flaky now and one had completely failed, so some were on the list to be replaced any way. The still working pulled units, putting into inventory for possible future swap ins.

Between the same-function Z-Wave replacements, a bit of inventory (in particular brand new Keylincs), and securing three 2413S as backup, I'm sure I'll weather this storm, and sail comfortably into the future.

And, I'm finding all kinds of interesting Z-Wave modules, that will give me functionality I didn't have before, with a pure Insteon setup.

All good.

And, this forum is great. Great depth of knowledge and experience.

* Orest