Insteon Smarthome appliance module - it clicks but does not turn off

[raymondjiii]

This is one of the larger type models that has Smarthome on the back. I am using various controllers for it and it does click on and off (I can hear the relay) but it never shuts off the device which is a computer monitor running at about 130 Watts. I am hoping this is a repairable item, if anyone has seen this problem before. I did swap it out with another of the same type (not sure about the Rev #'s) but the new one does work. The old one worked up to some point but now it just clicks and no shutoff of device. Thank you.

Edited May 25, 2022 by raymondjiii

[stillwater]

I don't have direct experience with this but it sounds like the actual relay contacts have fused together, or possibly the return spring has broken or become detached.  The contacts shouldn't have fused  with only 130 watt load but inrush current could be higher.   If so, two possible approaches to fixing:

1) Open it up and replace the relay with a new one with same coil voltage.   Would require soldering.

2) Open it up and break into relay case and unstick contacts, use emery cloth to sand contacts, see if it works for another few years...    then see (1)   [Sometimes just banging on the relay will unstick the contacts] 

Once the case is open you could confirm the diagnosis by measuring resistance across the relay contacts with an ohm meter (with unit unpowered). 

[PinchRoller]

I agree with stillwater, the issue may be a broken relay.  That ApplianceLinc and many Insteon relay products used model #TRV-24VDC-SC-AL from a company called Tai-Shing Electronics or TTI. That part has been replaced with TRVF-24VDC-SD-AL.  The spec are 22.3 x 16.3 x 11mm, 24VDC @8.3mA coil and contacts rated for 250VAC, 16A, TV-5.  A drop in replacement is Massuse ME-23-24P.  There are many relays that match those specifications on DigiKey, Mouser, and others.

 

Another possibility is the capacitors across the high-voltage switched contacts have shorted.  Caps sometimes break down when attached to some loads, which produce a high voltage reverse EMF upon relay opening. This can be tested with an ohm meter or continuity tester placed across those capacitors near the relay.

Good luck,

-Pinch

[raymondjiii]

3 hours ago, stillwater said:

I don't have direct experience with this but it sounds like the actual relay contacts have fused together, or possibly the return spring has broken or become detached.  The contacts shouldn't have fused  with only 130 watt load but inrush current could be higher.   If so, two possible approaches to fixing:

1) Open it up and replace the relay with a new one with same coil voltage.   Would require soldering.

2) Open it up and break into relay case and unstick contacts, use emery cloth to sand contacts, see if it works for another few years...    then see (1)   [Sometimes just banging on the relay will unstick the contacts] 

Once the case is open you could confirm the diagnosis by measuring resistance across the relay contacts with an ohm meter (with unit unpowered). 

Thanks for your reply. I thought that if I hear the clicking sound, then the relay is activating and deactivating, no?

[Brian H]

You may want to look at the model and revision number. If it is a 2456S3 or 2856S3 Icon there are two major revisions.

The original revision 1 models used a GOODSKY EZ-SH-1115A 120VAC coil relay and was in a white colored case. It did has a set of capacitors across the contacts to protect them but they where cut out at V1.3 on the 2456S3 and V1.4 on the 2856S3 Icon . Since they could short and keep the load on but they would smoke and you would have seen the smoke.

The 24VDC coil relay is in the revision 4 models. They also have a snubber network across the relay contacts but I have not seen any reports of them shorting. Removing the 2.7 OHM R2 would disconnect it. Though it would also probably overheat if the capacitors failed.

Both revision 1 and 4 have a local control sensing feature. That could be triggered by some inductive loads but if it just recently started that may not be an issue. You would probably hear the relay double click in the case.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Brian H
Add information

[stillwater]

My sense is that the relay clicking means the coil is activating and the armature is pulling in  (and releasing to some extent when it turns off if it clicks then also) but does not necessarily indicate that the actual contacts are separating as they are generally mounted on metal leafs with some compliance.  

[Brian H]

You could also measure the resistance between the narrower input pin and the narrower output jack. When unplugged. It should be a fairly high resistance. I measured around 250,000 Ohms in a version 1 and 330,000 Ohms in a version 4. If it is very low that would also show it has a welded contact.

[raymondjiii]

4 hours ago, Brian H said:

You may want to look at the model and revision number. If it is a 2456S3 or 2856S3 Icon there are two major revisions.

The original revision 1 models used a GOODSKY EZ-SH-1115A 120VAC coil relay and was in a white colored case. It did has a set of capacitors across the contacts to protect them but they where cut out at V1.3 on the 2456S3 and V1.4 on the 2856S3 Icon . Since they could short and keep the load on but they would smoke and you would have seen the smoke.

The 24VDC coil relay is in the revision 4 models. They also have a snubber network across the relay contacts but I have not seen any reports of them shorting. Removing the 2.7 OHM R2 would disconnect it. Though it would also probably overheat if the capacitors failed.

Both revision 1 and 4 have a local control sensing feature. That could be triggered by some inductive loads but if it just recently started that may not be an issue. You would probably hear the relay double click in the case.

 

 

So it is a V1.3 and a #2456S3. I'd like to try to replace the relay but it sounds like the replacement parts listed by PinchRoller are for the 24V units. It has the two classic electrolytic capacitors - not sure if those are worth replacing - I guess I would if I can find another relay to put in. Their tops are not bulging nor does there appear to be any obvious leakage, but I realize that's not the full proof of them still being good. Is that a capacitor on the left (burgundy color - actually a big one and a small one) The big one says 155k 250ME. It looks like a capacitor to me but I guess I'm used to seeing uF listed and volts.

If I measure the resistance across the hot input to the hot output - it's basically zero ohms. Does that mean that the relay is stuck in the closed position?

Thank you,

Ray

 

Oh wait a sec....the relay voltage is 30V DC. For some reason I thought it was a 120V AC relay controlling a 120V AC load. But it is a 30V DC relay and not a 24V DC I am not sure about replacement availability.

Edited May 25, 2022 by raymondjiii

[stillwater]

Looking at the picture of the relay, it's a little hard to read but I think it says the contacts are rated 16A at up to 30vdc or 250 vac but the coil voltage appears to be 115vac as indicated by the coil: 115vac marking.   30 vdc is a common contact rating voltage threshold for relays but would be a quite unusual coil voltage.  

[Brian H]

Yes that is the 120VAC coil relay used in the V1 2456S3 units.  Near the Red output wire on the board. You will see the two open capacitor mounting pads. In Version 1.3 they where removed because they sometimes shorted and kept the load on. I have had a few of the larger 470uF/35V caps fail. In mine it pulsed on and off at about a one second cycle. Replacement fixed the cycling. If it is clicking I would think stillwater's though on a stuck contact maybe what is happening.

Here is some information on the module. It is an Icon but the differences are no pass through outlet on the front and a green or amber LED.  https://efundies.com/guides/. The what is inside an Icon module pages show the information. The partial schematic of an Icon Module shows the small P160J coupler and how it turns the 120VAC relay on and off. Yes the +5 volt logic voltage is connected directly to the 120VAC Line input. All the voltages are set with electronics referencing to the Neutral.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Brian H
Add information.

[Brian H]

The relay is a Goodsky EZ-SH-1115A. I have seen a few Ebay listing selling the relay but didn't check the status too closely. Some where used removed and tested.

https://www.goodsky.com.tw/en/relays/general-purpose-relay/67-ez-relay

[raymondjiii]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

Yes that is the 120VAC coil relay used in the V1 2456S3 units.  Near the Red output wire on the board. You will see the two open capacitor mounting pads. In Version 1.3 they where removed because they sometimes shorted and kept the load on. I have had a few of the larger 470uF/35V caps fail. In mine it pulsed on and off at about a one second cycle. Replacement fixed the cycling. If it is clicking I would think stillwater's though on a stuck contact maybe what is happening.

Here is some information on the module. It is an Icon but the differences are no pass through outlet on the front and a green or amber LED.  https://efundies.com/guides/. The what is inside an Icon module pages show the information. The partial schematic of an Icon Module shows the small P160J coupler and how it turns the 120VAC relay on and off. Yes the +5 volt logic voltage is connected directly to the 120VAC Line input. All the voltages are set with electronics referencing to the Neutral.

Oh damn! I didn't even see that. Yes, 115VAC coil. Wow. Yeah, I saw a couple of used ones from China on eBay but that's all I could find. I thought for sure there would be some new ones available via a Chinese seller. I can't resist trying to do a repair - even if the time, effort and $ are more than buying a "new used" one. I guess I inherited that trait from my grandfather.

 

Thanks Brian and others - for your help with this.

[raymondjiii]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

The relay is a Goodsky EZ-SH-1115A. I have seen a few Ebay listing selling the relay but didn't check the status too closely. Some where used removed and tested.

https://www.goodsky.com.tw/en/relays/general-purpose-relay/67-ez-relay

I can't get the original relays new but I can - if I want to downgrade these to half the power rating...I can put in a EMI-SH-2115A-S with the same form factor. It would serve my use. I rarely ever use an appliance module for anything with more than 200W.

[Brian H]

I found some  information on the relay you mentioned. It was a Goodsky product and as you mentioned 1/2 the power rating as the EZ. I have not seen a specification sheet on it yet but will keep looking.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Brian H
Chane statements

[smokegrub]

You may wish to use an X-10 Appliance Module. I use them often and they work beautifully and are inexpensive.

[xlurkr]

Louder than all get out though.

-Tom

[raymondjiii]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

I found some  information on the relay you mentioned. It was a Goodsky product and as you mentioned 1/2 the power rating as the EZ. I have not seen a specification sheet on it yet but will keep looking.

https://www.datasheets360.com/part/detail/emi-sh-2115a-s/-6283987144728692286/

[Brian H]

Thank you for the link. I will give it a look.

[PinchRoller]

22 hours ago, raymondjiii said:

Oh wait a sec....the relay voltage is 30V DC. For some reason I thought it was a 120V AC relay controlling a 120V AC load. But it is a 30V DC relay and not a 24V DC I am not sure about replacement availability.

On this version, there is an opto-coupler that effectively controls the coil using the 120V line.  Here is the schematic of that circuit:

Keep in mind that this product uses an inverted power supply, so one might be alarmed at the switching of the neutral line.  I do recommend checking the two capacitors around the relay for possible shorting, which would keep the load on up to a certain current.

-Pinch

 

[Brian H]

The EMI SH21115AS is a 2 pole relay and the EZ SH1115A is a one pole relay. Though both pins for each function are tied together inside the original relay. The rating maybe the same as both. As the pin for each function are tied together on the board. So with the  EZ SH21115AS both internal relays contact sets are in parallel.