Desperate Help Needed - Possible PLM issue but maybe not

[gadgetfreak]

My whole house (over 75 devices) has Insteon switches with an ISY 994IR Pro and a PLM 2413S. Starting yesterday, I could access the ISY but couldn’t control anything, and my programs didn’t run. I found two blue lights on the front and when I logged into the admin console, it said it was in safe mode. This indicates a problem with the PLM connection.

 

Luckily, I had a friend with an unused PLM (since you can't get them anymore). I installed it, restored the PLM in the admin console, and could control all but two devices for around an hour. Then that one also stopped working, and I am back to two blue lights and safe mode.

 

I am using Firmware 5.3.0 on the ISY. What else should I be doing to fix this? I can’t get ahold of another PLM, but that is too much of a coincidence for both to be broken. Even worse, I had a spare ISY to try and, as soon as I connected that with either of the PLMs, same two lights.

 

Please oh please - I hope someone has a good solution. If not, I am going to have to redo my entire house. Thanks in advance.

[oskrypuch]

How old are the PLMs? What version are they? (check the address/date/version stamp)

When you changed to the new PLM, did you follow the full routine of updating all the links in all your devices? IOW, did you follow all the steps in the wiki?

The safe mode bootup is concerning, either way.

Keep in mind, that your friend's PLM may have been a spare, because it had been replaced.

Does the power light come on on the PLM, full brightness? If not, that is a common failure mode, and the PLMs can be repaired if you are handy with a soldering gun, or there are folks that will repair it for you.

* Orest

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[gadgetfreak]

I think I did everything correctly but which wiki are you referring to? I just factory reset the PLM again, waited 1 minute, plugged in the original ISY, say the two steady blue lights, logged into the admin console anyway, and got safe mode. What do you think I should do now? 

Also, is it possible there was some sort of "short" in the original ISY that could have broken the first PLM and then the second one an hour after it was installed?

[Brian H]

The PLM uses a serial type signal. Send, Receive and signal Common. There should not be any voltages on the serial connector that can harm a PLM.

I have seen the V2.4 and above revisions having a new daughter board with added protection of the serial chip in the PLM. The PLM has to be fully powered On before the ISY994i can see it at startup.

Which LED lights are flashing? https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Front_Panel_LEDs.2FLights

Edited May 27, 2022 by Brian H

[oskrypuch]

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php

When you move to a new modem, you have to update all the links in all your peripheral devices.

There is a section describing how to replace your modem.

But, this may not be your primary problem.

The answer to his might be helpful as well ...

Quote

How old are the PLMs? What version are they? (check the address/date/version stamp)

* Orest

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[Techman]

Safe mode means that the ISY is unable to communicate with the PLM. 
Being that you swapped out the PLM and you're still having issues that pretty much eliminates the PLM as the problem

Exactly which leds on the ISY are on?  Are they steady or flashing?

Your problem could be a bad ISY power supply or the cable between the ISY and PLM

[oskrypuch]

As @Techman suggests, a failing ISY power supply might be a good bet. It could explain why the new combo worked for a bit, and then failed.

There was also a comment that the programs were not running. Not certain if that just means there was no end device response, or whether the programs themselves were not executing internally, setting variables, responding to other nodes, etc.

* Orest

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[gadgetfreak]

Even if I could get power to the ISY and access the admin console, you still think it could be the power supply? If so, this would be my second failed power supply. But what a relief if true. What are the requirements for a new power supply? Maybe I can get one locally? 

[Geddy]

@gadgetfreak in the post by @Brian H above with the link to the Wiki includes info about power supply for the ISY. Check any old router/cordless phone devices you might still have power supplies for. Sometimes they're able to fit the bill. 

UD sells a replacement power supply, but you can find general power supplies at most online & local electronic stores.

From the wiki: 

Quote

You can try any power supply that outputs anywhere between 5 volt and 30 volts,center positive, 2mm barrel connector

 

15 minutes ago, gadgetfreak said:

Even if I could get power to the ISY and access the admin console, you still think it could be the power supply? If so, this would be my second failed power supply.

Yes, the power supply going bad can do funky things with the ISY. It will give it just enough power to boot and appear to be working, but when you log into the Admin console and try to change views it adds enough power draw to cause issues similar to what you are describing. 

And you say second failed power supply - you just said you changed PLM. That's not a "power supply". Did you actually change power supplies or did you change the PLM? 

 

Did you ever answer this initial question?

4 hours ago, oskrypuch said:

How old are the PLMs? What version are they? (check the address/date/version stamp)

Make sure the PLM is plugged in before you plug in the ISY994. That's why you are getting "safe mode" when you opened Admin Console last. 

[gadgetfreak]

@Geddy Thank you so much for your detailed response. I am usually not that aloof but I am really freaking out by this and the prospect of needing to change my whole house. To answer some of your comments:

 

Both of the PLMs I have in my possession are 2413S v2.1. One says 1505 and the other 1530, the other says There was a time in within the last 12 months where my ISY completely broke and I ordered an entirely new one when it turned out it was only the power supply that had broken. I ended up keeping the second ISY as a "spare". That is what I mean when I said that this would be the second power supply - but it was unrelated to this current incident.

 

I just would have never thought it was the power supply since I had power this whole time. Luckily, the friend that gave me the spare PLM also had a spare ISY and power supply. But, unfortunately, I still have bad news.

 

I plugged in the PLM (1530 one as I assume that is newer) - which I had factory reset, waited one minute, then plugged in my original ISY with the new power supply. It booted up but got stuck on those two steady blue lights again. And, as before, when I log into the admin console, it immediately says safe mode.

I am SO appreciative of all your help. But I continue to "freak out" that I am going to have to replace all my switches. I didn't do anything else with the ISY after the above because I assume the connection to the PLM is still bad. Any further help would be MOST appreciated.

[oskrypuch]

Those PLMs are old enough, that (1) they don't have the new parts that came with v2.4 or so, and later, that mitigate against the PLM internal power supply failure issues related to capacitor failures (2) and, they are old enough that they may well have failed by now.

Here is a thread for a DIY repair, if you are handy enough to do that, or know someone that is: (this is probably your best bet)

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Restore_Modem_.28PLM.29

And, here is a fellow on eBay that will do the repair, don't know if he still is:

There is another fellow that is a distributor for UDI, that will do the repair, and he will work with folks outside of CONUS as well. You will probably find him mentioned in these threads as well.

Used PLMs are available here and there, if you are willing to pay the price. But, of course, they may crump as well, or may have crumped already!

We may see a UDI designed PLM "Pro" appear later this year, but a number of speed bumps in the way there. But if we see it, that will solve most of our problems.
 

If none of that works, what else can you do?

Consider migrating to the Polisy and going Z-Wave for any "semi-critical" functions to buy you time, there are a lot of Z-Wave devices. I just did that recently and wrote about it here. (although I didn't lose my PLM) You have to get a inexpensive Z-Wave dongle for the Polisy, there will be a Z-Wave board upgrade this fall for the Polisy, they will discount the cost of the dongle if you buy it direct from UDI.

Insteon devices are fetching a pretty penny right now on eBay, so at least you can probably pay for some of that transition, if that is what you have to do.

 

Some options, a lot to consider.

* Orest

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[gadgetfreak]

So the standing belief is that, just randomly, the second PLM broke right after the first one did? What a coincidence. But I have tried every combination with different outlets, CAT5 wires, ISYs and both PLMs. Just my luck :(. I placed a $92 ebay order with nilachidatasystems in upstate NY. I am waiting for them to send me their address to ship one back. If that works, I would definitely do the same with the second one. 

I already started my research for alternatives (keeping ISY or getting a Polisy because I love all the IFTT stuff):

Lutron Caseta - capped at 75 devices. I am not a fan of their wall switches. No keypads with 6-8 buttons. And their programming is not as good - I can't set variables to control folders (though if I connect to Polisy, it won't be an issue). And even that will cost me around $50/switch.

Lutron RA2 Select - Much more expensive. Still not sure about keypads.

Lutron Radio RA2 or 3 - What I would get if money was no object.

Leviton Z-Wave - I don't know enough about this. I believe it should work with a Z-wave module on ISY or Polisy. Not sure about keypads either.

I REALLY want to stick with Insteon. I am hoping for a miracle.

[oskrypuch]

Repairing your PLMs are the easiest path.

As to Z-Wave, unlike Insteon there are dozens of suppliers and thousands of products that have been speced. But, most from the database are not readily available for purchase.

https://z-wavealliance.org/about_z-wave_technology/

When looking for Z-Wave options, the first two brands/products I look for are ZOOZ and AeoTec.

There are other "family" alternatives as well.

* Orest

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[gadgetfreak]

So, for someone like me who is already used to ISY, you would recommend going with Z-Wave? For the controller: either keeping the ISY and adding the $70 Z-Wave or getting the Polisy with Z-Wave capability? And then start replacing switches with ZOOZ and/or AeoTec (which seem to be really affordable and have keypads)?

Still not ideal when this whole system can be fixed with just one small PLM.

[oskrypuch]

You have many options.

For you, getting the PLM repaired is the simplest, to get you going quickly.

For me, with a working PLM, I'm looking at Zwave to fill out future gaps. There is also a wide variety of devices, many unique from what Insteon had available. But one huge hole is keypads.

IAC, it was a failed SD card on my current 994 (together with SmartHome closing) that kind of triggered my decision to go Polisy upgrade, and ZWave. I have eight Zwave units installed now, that are a nice complement to my many dozens of insteon devices. Some learning and some speed bumps, but all mainly good.

* Orest

 

P.S. I expect the second PLM was on its last legs already, for the same reasons.

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[gadgetfreak]

You have been very helpful. I am still hyperventilating about this whole situation but, even if I do get my PLMs repaired, it seems I need to move on - likely to Polisy/Z-Wave. I will get to use the same programming functionality that I have with ISY and use affordable switches that form a mesh network. Right?

You mentioned no keypads. What about this? Zooz 700 Series Z-Wave Plus Scene Controller Switch ZEN32 - The Smartest House.

Also, must I upgrade to a Polisy? What is wrong with the ISY and Z-Wave PLUS Module - Universal Devices (universal-devices.com)? Assuming it comes back in stock?

[oskrypuch]

The ZEN32 has its challenges, search the forum for discussions. It is not a keypadlinc drop-in functional replacement.

There is nothing wrong with the 994, as long as you recognize that it is being replaced in the line with the Polisy units.

The issue for zwave, is that the zwave board for the 994 is 500 series, and not likely to be upgradeable. You can use 700 series (and no doubt future series) with the Polisy. There is a great discussion of all things zwave in the Polisy/700 994/500 sections here -- in particular the pinned Tips & Tricks post. I read through most all the threads to get up to speed. Posted a few as well, about my newbie experiences with zwave, as I started my transition from Insteon.

* Orest

Edited May 27, 2022 by oskrypuch

[Geddy]

1 hour ago, gadgetfreak said:

I am really freaking out by this and the prospect of needing to change my whole house.

It's okay. Just take a step and relax and work the issue. It's not something you'll have to rip everything out this weekend. It's a minor inconvenience that you'll need to operate a few switches manually while you work through this, but it will be okay. Lots of people have been stepping in to help out. Just taken it nice and slow and methodical. 

 

[gadgetfreak]

LOL. Thx. At this point, my only hope (without starting from scratch) is waiting for the ebay repair or waiting for Universal Devices to create a PLM. Sadly, I won't hold my breath. First world problems

[Geddy]

  

1 hour ago, gadgetfreak said:

I placed a $92 ebay order with nilachidatasystems in upstate NY.

I assume you mean for this service - https://www.ebay.com/itm/284790289019?hash=item424ed2f27b:g:yF0AAOSwLNRiaspc

 

1 hour ago, gadgetfreak said:

the second PLM broke right after the first one did? What a coincidence.

Yeah, that would be bad luck if it did, but as @oskrypuch points out these are v2.1 PLM so they are indeed a little older. But to both go bad at the same time...unlikely. But not impossible. Just perhaps do you have whole home surge protection? Or might you be having any power surges in the area? Just a random question...no real evidence that something could have caused this, but always good to ask the question.

1 hour ago, gadgetfreak said:

I already started my research for alternatives

As I said...let's keep calm and work the issues. Sadly we're going into a holiday weekend so most will be taking some time away from the computer and work. But, just take the time to do your research and consider the options, but I think the best thing will be that the PLM can be repaired and things will be right in your system again soon. 

It's quite possible that in your hurry to try to "fix" everything you've really thrown a lot at the system and have it in a very confused state. As I see it you replaced the PLM, you replaced the ISY994, and you've tried various cables between the two. 

There's a Troubleshooting section in the wiki - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Troubleshooting_2

It would have been wise to walk the process of troubleshooting. Rather than just trying new devices. 

I think if you can regroup and put your original ISY994 and original PLM in service and see how the system acts you will be able to provide us valuable information and gain some assistance through here. However, ultimately it might need to be something that you put in a support ticket with UDI and just double check the steps and processes to try to fix the system.

23 minutes ago, gadgetfreak said:

First world problems

Indeed! And sadly on a holiday weekend to boot. Always when you don't want to be hunched over trying to fix electronics. Hopefully you'll be able to enjoy some down time.

What I would suggest doing though:
Read this flowchart for troubleshooting - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Troubleshooting_Flowchart (it's "old", but still applies in most cases)

1 - plug in original PLM (wait 1-2 minutes)

• Make sure the lights on the PLM are solid - see step 2 #5 on the flow chart link above

2 - using ORIGINAL CABLE (if possible) connect PLM to ISY994

• my reason for trying to use original cable is just take anything "new" out of the equation
• as part of troubleshooting you will replace the original cable with standard network cable

3 - Plug in ISY994 - WATCH THE LIGHTS (Perhaps video with your phone for your own review)

• Monitor the light pattern at bootup (as described here - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Front_Panel_LEDs.2FLights)

4 - monitor the lights on the front of the ISY994 after about 3 or 4 minutes. 

• You said you had two lights on. Were they stead or were they blinking/flashing?
• Take a picture (and post here) - which lights are on? Refer to link above to let us know what lights are on.

5 - attempt to open Admin Console - before doing anything else go directly to "HELP" in the menu. 

• Help -> About
• Tell us what your UI and Firmware are (make sure they match EXACTLY! (down to the date code)
• Are you using the ISY Launcher method to open Admin Console?
• Don't worry/pay attention to "safe mode" at this point. Just make sure UI/FW match.

 

6 - Update us with current status for ISY994  and PLM - 

• Is PLM light solid?
• Are there strange lights on the ISY994?
• Is only the power light on the ISY994, but might be dim?
• Is ISY994 in "safe mode"?
• What is your Firmware and User Interface version? (you said 5.3.0, but just confirm to us that they match - maybe post a screen shot)
• In Admin Console download an error log - save locally for possible future use/review.
  • Tools -> Error Log -> Save to local drive somewhere (don't change the name)
• In Admin Console open Event Viewer and set it to level 3
  • Tools -> Diagnostics -> Event Viewer
    • Copy current event viewer and paste to Notepad
      • Click the icon between "Save Log To ..." and "Close"
      • 
    • CLEAR event viewer (so nothing is there)
    • try to turn on a simple on/off device. 
    • What is seen in the event viewer? (Copy and paste in to notepad and paste here for reference - use same button as above)

 

Once you get this and you're back to where you were originally now let's see what the issue is.

Look into any old power supplies you have. See if they fit the power and size mentioned in the wiki for powering the ISY994. 

Good luck. Post back what you've done and findings from above. As I said...some might not be around here for the weekend and holiday, but there are a lot of helpful people on here so based on your findings I'm sure somebody will step in and help.

 

[gadgetfreak]

OK. I appreciate the advice but I think I end up in the exact same place. I may have sounded frazzled (and was) but I did basically go through all the steps. I went back to the original PLM, CAT5. ISY and Power Supply. I plugged in the PLM, saw a solid green light on the right side, waited 2 minutes and then put the final plug (the power) into the ISY. All 3 blue lights came on for a few seconds and then just the first two stayed lit as solid blue lights.

I then launched the admin console, for the safe-mode pop-up which I had to clear and then went to help/about and see this:

Matches perfectly. But I also see this when getting PLM status (which makes sense):

And, of course, I can't control any devices through the admin console. One of the steps was to try to restore modem but that failed too: 

I haven't made any changes to my network. What about doing a factory reset of my ISY and then restoring a backup?

[Geddy]

@gadgetfreak Thanks for the reply and thanks for going through these steps. When you say the two lights are on are they on fully or is it light bleed from the power light being on very bright?

In the ISY bootup did you get this pattern for the lights?

"Power, RX&TX, momentary blink of Memory/RX and TX, and then Power only"

If no lights blinked then there could be something wrong with the ISY. But I'm not sure why just the left two lights are on. Typically just the power light being on is a power supply problem. If it's another issue the error and memory lights would be on.

Can you snap a picture of the lights and post just to see?

Ultimately, I would suggest you open a support ticket with UDI and let them know the steps you've gone through and include pictures of the screen shots above (showing FW/UI) and PLM status. 

Submit a Ticket:       https://www.universal-devices.com/my-tickets
Email:                           support@universal-devices.com

Going into a holiday weekend support might be a little slower to reply, but I think we've kind of explored all we know how to try to help (at least from my experience) with where you're at. Hopefully support can take a look and tell for certain. 

By the way...are you able to get an error log of any kind from admin console? 

 

How recent of a backup do you have that you would attempt to restore if you did reset the ISY? That's worst case type fix right there and I'd wait for support to suggest that path of "fixing". But just good to know you've got a backup. Just how recent is it?

Good luck! Thanks again for going through those steps. Hopefully you're back to operations soon, but know it could be a while to get squared away.

 

[Techman]

There's definitely a communication issue between the ISY and the PLM as the two blue Leds, and the PLM/Info, indicate 

At this point I don't think an ISY factory reset is going to help and may complicate things.

Is the green led on the PLM lit?

Is the PLM connected to port A on the ISY?

Have you tried different ethernet cables between the ISY and PLM?

It's possible, but probably rare, that you have two bad PLMs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oskrypuch]

1 hour ago, Techman said:

..... Is the green led on the PLM lit?

 

... and bright and steady.

* Orest

Edited May 28, 2022 by oskrypuch

[Brian H]

I have only seen this mentioned a few times.

Look at the Network style RJ45 serial port fingers in the jack. I have seen a report of the fingers being bent and not physically making a good contact.

There are a few very basic test programs to test a PLM. Though you need the serial cable packed in the PLM shipping box or a serial cable you made. A serial port on the computer or maybe a USB to serial adapter. As they where designed for basic testing. You had to send the basic hex codes to it and watch for a response.

The suggestion to open a ticket sounds like a good way to go.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Brian H