2 Unrelated devices controlling each other without any linking

[shunsader]

Forum Wizards,

I've been running a large home installation for years, and have NEVER come across anything even remotely as bizarre as this:

I've installed NEW 8 button keypad.  I've added the device, to my ISY 994, and have not even had the chance to do any linking. It was DESIGNED to turn on/off a motion sensor in a room by switching power. Never got that far. I noticed in the morning that Button 1 (power button) was turned off. When I turned it on, I noticed the guest bathroom light was on, but only one of 2 circuits/switches necessary to turn on the bathroom completely (another story). When I turn off the bathroom switch, the new keypad button 1 also turns off. It's as if they've been linked right out of the box. ZERO controls/programs have been added to this NEW, out of new BOX device.

This is Event Viewer, Level 3 when I turn ON the keypad, address 53.B2.24:

Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 53.B2.24 00.00.01 C7 11 00    LTONRR (00)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [Std-Group   ] 53.B2.24-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [53 B2 24 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [  53 B2 24 1]      DON   0
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 53.B2.24 21.20.9C 41 11 01    LTONRR (01)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [Std-Cleanup ] 53.B2.24-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 53.B2.24 21.20.9C 42 11 01    LTONRR (01)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [Std-Cleanup ] 53.B2.24-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 53.B2.24 11.01.01 C7 06 00           (00)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [Std-Group   ] 53.B2.24-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1
Tue 05/31/2022 03:05:00 PM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.

This is Event Viewer, Level 3 when I turn OFF the bathroom light switch (the one that behaves as if it's linked), address 51.3F.38:

Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:06 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 51.3F.38 00.00.01 CB 13 00    LTOFFRR(00)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:06 PM : [Std-Group   ] 51.3F.38-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:06 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [51 3F 38 1] [DOF] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:06 PM : [  51 3F 38 1]      DOF   0
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:06 PM : [D2D-CMP 00CE] CTL [51 3F 38 1] [DOF] op=is --> true
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [        Time] 15:06:13 4(0)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 51.3F.38 13.01.01 CB 06 00           (00)
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [Std-Group   ] 51.3F.38-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 16 CF 13 00
Tue 05/31/2022 03:06:07 PM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.16 CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)

I need to read up on command structure, but see no reference to either device in the above events. I looked at link tables, and don't see any cross reference either.

It should be noted that I've had recent problems with too many links in my PLM, and needed to rebuild more than once so that I could get my LEAK SENSORS TO REPORT (may have seen my post...yes, too many links kept them from posting data).

I'm usually pretty good at solving 'typical' problems, but this one feels like a ghost....how in the world could a device right out of the box start turning on a single device, which is already part of another scene??? - Steve

 

 

[Techman]

It's possible that the device had some preinstalled link tables. Do a factory reset on the device then a restore device from the ISY

What's your ISY firmware and UI?

Is your ISY the pro version, which as a larger link capacity.

[apostolakisl]

@shunsader  I have had this happen before.  ISY actually had wrong links in its table, so resetting and restoring did not fix the issue.  Had to delete the device from ISY, factory reset, then reinstall it on ISY.  Hopefully you don't have the device linked up to extensively. 

I have had this happen a couple of times.  In one instance I had a light in my daughter's bedroom that somehow started controlling our breakfast room lights.  Seeing as my daughter turning her bedroom light on was in no way an event that you would have any idea about in the breakfast room, we were very much wondering what was causing.

[Brian H]

As pointed out.

We have seen brand new modules with test links not removed before being sold. Both the ISY controller and PLM have a maximum link database size. PRO adds a larger link size to the ISY controller and the 2413S PLM is ~1000 links.

[shunsader]

Thanks for the feedback. Out of town for a week. I'll try the factory reset first on the new device. Hoping that'll solve the issue.

I DO have a Pro unit, and initially had 981 links. After Michel suggested I rebuild, I now have 330 something. What worries me is that I had a power outage a few days later (go figure), and needed to rebuild again. The number was quite different than that value...like 190, which doesn't seem like enough for the 106 switches, 21 dimmers, 20 motion sensors, and handful of water sensors. - Steve

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, shunsader said:

Thanks for the feedback. Out of town for a week. I'll try the factory reset first on the new device. Hoping that'll solve the issue.

I DO have a Pro unit, and initially had 981 links. After Michel suggested I rebuild, I now have 330 something. What worries me is that I had a power outage a few days later (go figure), and needed to rebuild again. The number was quite different than that value...like 190, which doesn't seem like enough for the 106 switches, 21 dimmers, 20 motion sensors, and handful of water sensors. - Steve

Link counts get screwed up with any comm on the system.  Have to do them while you are out of the house and programs disabled.

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, shunsader said:

Thanks for the feedback. Out of town for a week. I'll try the factory reset first on the new device. Hoping that'll solve the issue.

I DO have a Pro unit, and initially had 981 links. After Michel suggested I rebuild, I now have 330 something. What worries me is that I had a power outage a few days later (go figure), and needed to rebuild again. The number was quite different than that value...like 190, which doesn't seem like enough for the 106 switches, 21 dimmers, 20 motion sensors, and handful of water sensors. - Steve

Most likely it's closer to the 981 (if not more). 

[MrBill]

9 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Link counts get screwed up with any comm on the system.  Have to do them while you are out of the house and programs disabled.

to echo this it's literally ANY Insteon communications.    I have over a dozen battery powered devices that send heartbeats, and a single heartbeat will screw up the link count.   Disable programs, cover motion sensors and do many links counts in a row until you get the same number more than once, that's probably your link count.

11 hours ago, shunsader said:

I had a power outage a few days later (go figure), and needed to rebuild again.

why are you needing to rebuild after a power outage?   I literally do nothing after a power outage.  And what specifically do you mean by "rebuild"?

[shunsader]

"why are you needing to rebuild after a power outage?   I literally do nothing after a power outage.  And what specifically do you mean by "rebuild"?"

I did a "Restore PLM"....my version of rebuild, since Michel mentioned that doing so removes duplicate links. I made the assumption that to get from 981 links to 330 something, that perhaps the PLM is writing a new table when there's a power outage, which would result in duplicate links. It's pretty clear from the above comments that I've got some work to do to get a real link count. What I DO KNOW is that once I rebuilt the PLM the first time (a couple of weeks ago), my addition of leak and motion sensors all report back.

Another topic: My home is not complete yet, due to break ground on a large addition next year. If I'm having link limits, what would you suggest that I do to 'finish' my home installation? Should I be considering a second device? I had no idea that I could be running a second device until Michel mentioned it last month. I bought a backup ISY and needed to test some switches. It's possible to structure the build so that one device handles mission critical leak and motion sensors while the main ISY runs the lighting and comfort aspects. - Steve

[MrBill]

no need to restore PLM after a power outage.

also as mentioned... link counts are difficult if you have a large number of devices and a large number of wireless devices.   Programs can be disabled.  Link count can be done while no ones home to flip a switch.... BUT heartbeats from wireless sensors will also throw off the link count.   It should be understood that the link count is thrown off by large margin's... not 1 or 2 or 3.  When a signal interrupts, the link count continues from the address of the device that interrupted... meaning huge blocks of links can be skipped over or counted twice.

[apostolakisl]

7 hours ago, shunsader said:

"why are you needing to rebuild after a power outage?   I literally do nothing after a power outage.  And what specifically do you mean by "rebuild"?"

I did a "Restore PLM"....my version of rebuild, since Michel mentioned that doing so removes duplicate links. I made the assumption that to get from 981 links to 330 something, that perhaps the PLM is writing a new table when there's a power outage, which would result in duplicate links. It's pretty clear from the above comments that I've got some work to do to get a real link count. What I DO KNOW is that once I rebuilt the PLM the first time (a couple of weeks ago), my addition of leak and motion sensors all report back.

Another topic: My home is not complete yet, due to break ground on a large addition next year. If I'm having link limits, what would you suggest that I do to 'finish' my home installation? Should I be considering a second device? I had no idea that I could be running a second device until Michel mentioned it last month. I bought a backup ISY and needed to test some switches. It's possible to structure the build so that one device handles mission critical leak and motion sensors while the main ISY runs the lighting and comfort aspects. - Steve

Factory reset/restore PLM will make the PLM links the same as ISY's internal database.  So bad links will only exist on the PLM if they exist in ISY, which can happen.  The only way to get rid of bad links in ISY is to delete the devices that have bad links.  This means starting over from scratch on those devices, need to manually put them back into programs and scenes.  

[shunsader]

"The only way to get rid of bad links in ISY is to delete the devices that have bad links."

How would one be able to determine if there are bad links on a device. I have a PILE of devices in my home. - Steve

[apostolakisl]

50 minutes ago, shunsader said:

"The only way to get rid of bad links in ISY is to delete the devices that have bad links."

How would one be able to determine if there are bad links on a device. I have a PILE of devices in my home. - Steve

If you restore from ISY and you still have incorrect behavior, that is a dead giveaway.  Detecting orphan links is much more difficult since they don't create bad behavior, but they do take up space.  Orphan links require a very good knowledge of how to read the links table.  You could take a random sampling of devices, record their links, then delete/reinstall the devices and see if you get the same set of links.