Query All Daily Program

[fustesj99]

Hello all,

Does anyone knows if there is a way in which a specific device can be excluded from the "Query All" program that runs every day at 3am?

I do have a August Lock (z-wave) that is working fine until that query all run every day. In the morning when I try to unlock the door, it never respond to ISY. The only way the device go back to be responsive under ISY is by using the August Lock application to open the lock in the morning, otherwise it doesn't respond via ISY. I tested and it is always when a query is use against it.

Any idea? Thanks...

[MrBill]

Just out of curiosity, if you disable the query all program for testing, does the lock work the next morning?

(to disable the program right click the program name and pick disable)

Also are you using the most current firmware release for the 994 or Polisy?  If not, upgrade the firmware and retest.

if it still persists, it sounds like you found a bug to report, open a ticket support@universal-devices.com

[fustesj99]

I'm running 5.3.4 on my 994i. I haven't disable the query all program yet. I did tested while the lock was responding by doing a query only for that device and the issue was replicated.

Is there a newest firmware other than 5.3.4? I will disable the program and see the result, which I have no doubt it will happen.

 

[fustesj99]

Update...

The query all program was disable for the night and the lock was responding using ISY as expected.

Now, how can this single device can be excluded from the every night program "Query all"? It has to be a way...

 

Thanks in advance...

[rssorensen]

I guess I have a similar problem.

My Query All program run's at 3am every day and 95% of the times it trips the GFCI in my backyard. The only Insteon device that I have on that circuit is an On/Off Outlet. I have tried to replace the outlet - still happens.

Any idea what can cause this and what will happen if the Query all program isn't executed?

 

[Geddy]

@rssorensen That sounds like an interesting electrical problem to trip that outlet each day. Or is it only randomly?

You can do like the OP and disable the program for a few nights to confirm that it doesn't trip if the program doesn't run. 

It depends on how large your system is and if there are a lot of battery devices or older devices. I think the "query all" was something used specifically to the older ISY devices that got carried over into ISY994. It is not included in initial setup for Polisy, but some have manually added it.  I don't know exactly what it did, but seems to be that it just synced all the device status with the ISY so things would be correct. It ran at 3am because it was likely not to interfere with other traffic. 

 

[ELA]

17 hours ago, rssorensen said:

I guess I have a similar problem.

My Query All program run's at 3am every day and 95% of the times it trips the GFCI in my backyard. The only Insteon device that I have on that circuit is an On/Off Outlet. I have tried to replace the outlet - still happens.

Any idea what can cause this and what will happen if the Query all program isn't executed?

 

Hello rssorensen,

That is an interesting issue.   

Is it a GFCI breaker or receptacle?    If a breaker how long would you estimate the wire is from the breaker to the Insteon outlet?     GFCI device?

Does the GFCI ever trip randomly ( not during an ISY Query)?

     In theory Insteon signals should not trip a GFCI.   There have been reports of it though.

GFCIs are not all created equal.  Some older units are prone to nuisance tripping.   If it is an older unit you might try replacing it.

   If you ever experience random tripping it is possible that you have a continuous leakage ( long wiring length) always and that the Insteon signals add to that and cause the trip.

[MrBill]

19 hours ago, rssorensen said:

and 95% of the times it trips the GFCI in my backyard.

are you certain the query is tripping the GFCI or is the GFCI tripping at some point and the query is discovering that fact for you?

[Brian H]

You could also do a Query from the Administrative Console and see if the tripping also happens then.

[IndyMike]

On 9/12/2022 at 3:34 PM, rssorensen said:

My Query All program run's at 3am every day and 95% of the times it trips the GFCI in my backyard. The only Insteon device that I have on that circuit is an On/Off Outlet. I have tried to replace the outlet - still happens.

 

Hello rssorensen,

Just a few addition comments to the good items provided above.  To start (and not to be insulting) GFCI devices trip if there is and imbalance between the hot/neutral current.  They are very accurate and fast.  Insteon communications (130 KHz vs 60Hz) can cause a higher leakage if the path is capacitive.  I have had a HP printer that had "high" leakage to ground and would intermittently trip a basement GFCI.  I cured this with a filterlinc (isolated the printer from the 130KhZ Insteon).

1) The "Query all"  program includes everything in "My Lighting" (excludes battery devices).  This includes Insteon, X10 , and Zwave.  You can create your own "house query scene" to limit the devices.  I created my own query scene years ago when my 2-way x10 devices were having issues.  It does require maintenance - you have to add new devices - and it is a patch - it does not solve your root problem.

2) I have had problems in the past with a garage circuit tripping the CFCI when my outdoor post lamp was on (photo cell) and there was insteon communication.   I narrowed this down to a bad underground wire that was leaking to ground (or earth) during communications.  Insteon communication is higher frequency an will cause higher leakage to earth (or ground) during communication.  As ELA idicated, If you have high leakage on a circuit, the additional Insteon communication could be enough to trip the CFCI.

3) Recently I had installed a 2 prong Zwave repeater on my garage circuit.  Soon after the GFCI breaker tripped.  Reset the breaker, and noted that It tripped whenever my Zwave garage lock operated.  Moved the repeater to another circuit and the problem when away.  I bring this up because I did not expect it.  I would not expect a 2 connection device to trip a GFCI unless it significantly delayed the current draw.

 

This is not necessarily due to the Insteon device.  You mentioned that your GFCI was on an outdoor circuit.  Have a look at any outdoor devices that may have degraded over time (transformers, underground cables, smokers, etc).  They can all contribute to leakage to ground.

IM

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by IndyMike

[rssorensen]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

Answering some of the questions asked above:

"If a breaker how long would you estimate the wire is from the breaker to the Insteon outlet?     GFCI device?"

It's a receptacle roughly 10 meters (~33ft) from the Insteon device

"are you certain the query is tripping the GFCI or is the GFCI tripping at some point and the query is discovering that fact for you?"

I'm 100% certain that the query is tripping the GFCI. I have an outdoor camera powered indirectly from one of the outlet (USB adapter to the camera). I can reply from the camera and it literally goes black at 3:00:00am - not a second sooner or later.

"Does the GFCI ever trip randomly ( not during an ISY Query)?"

Yes that happens as well.

"GFCIs are not all created equal.  Some older units are prone to nuisance tripping.   If it is an older unit you might try replacing it"

I did replace the GFCI a while back.

"Have a look at any outdoor devices that may have degraded over time (transformers, underground cables, smokers, etc)."

So - as mentioned this is in my backyard ie outdoor.

I have ~4 outlets behind the the GFCI outlet. Most outlet supply power to 110VAC->12VDC outdoor power supplies and some of these are behind outdoor smart plugs. While the outdoor plugs and the power supplies are powered the load is minimum - less than a few Watts.

One outlet powers a outdoor access point. In addition I have a couple of USB powered cameras.

I've replaced some of the outdoor smart plugs but haven't seen any difference.

[IndyMike]

15 hours ago, rssorensen said:

"Have a look at any outdoor devices that may have degraded over time (transformers, underground cables, smokers, etc)."

So - as mentioned this is in my backyard ie outdoor.

I have ~4 outlets behind the the GFCI outlet. Most outlet supply power to 110VAC->12VDC outdoor power supplies and some of these are behind outdoor smart plugs. While the outdoor plugs and the power supplies are powered the load is minimum - less than a few Watts.

One outlet powers a outdoor access point. In addition I have a couple of USB powered cameras.

I've replaced some of the outdoor smart plugs but haven't seen any difference.

You need to think in terms of current imbalance rather that power usage.  A few milli-amps imbalance (fraction of a watt @120V) is enough to trip a GFCI.  A length of buried cable that is leaking to earth can produce enough imbalance with zero load.

It sounds like you have a number of devices and cable runs that could contribute to the leakage.  Unfortunately, the leakage is small and difficult to detect.  I would suggest using the process of elimination to isolate which device(s) are leaking.  I say devices because it could be multiple underground cable runs that are contributing to the leakage.  The underground cable to my post light lasted 20 years before it had issues.

1) With everything installed on the circuit, force run your 3am query to verify that you can trip the breaker - this is your detector.  You can also query "my lighting" from the admin console tree. 

2) Remove al of your outlets and loads from the GFCI circuit and repeat the query.  Hopefully the GFCI will NOT trip.

3) Begin adding loads back to the circuit, repeating the query process.  If you find a load/device that trips the GFCI, try it by itself.  Remember that the leakage may be "additive" across a couple or several loads.

This could be easy, or really complicated.  Let us know what you find.